You are wrong: what now?

The Fool · 03-02-2004, 12:37 PM

Hypothetical: whatever your own beliefs that you hold now, tomorrow a certain new theory comes out, receives universal acceptance, and clearly contradicts everything you believe in.

Question: do you abandon your beliefs? If so, why? And what will you do instead?

Reason: I have often see people on forums claim that if there was a way to prove their own religion wrong, then these people would no longer have a reason to to be "good" - to hold themselves in a position of moral/ethical obligation to themselves, to others, or society.

This I have never understood.

How would you react, though? Personally, I have never accepted any form of moral absolute, so my own moral/ethical compass I consider entirely personal.

Vajradhara · 03-02-2004, 03:03 PM

Namaste brian,

thank you for the topic.

this is an interesting question to my mind. it's my contention that Buddhism couldn't be proven wrong... but, for the sake of argument, let's say that i, for whatever reason, no longer held it to be a valid path for me to take. which isn't so much an indication of Buddhism as it is of myself.

in any event.. should that be the case, i would simply take up my Taoist praxis once more and, barring that, i would try to walk the Red Road or the Pollen Path, which are Native American Shaman traditions.

it's a hard thing to seriously consider, in my opinion, since folks tend to have a great deal of emotion invested in their belief as well. i think that a person could come to intellecutally understand that their chosen path wasn't sufficient, however, that is a completely different thing to realize it emotionally.

Zenda71 · 03-02-2004, 05:18 PM

I keep remembering the old saying "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him." I think that Buddhism would remain a valid path regardless of belief because its goal is to see things as they are. New information could be incorporated quite easily, unless you are clinging to the old ideas. Does that make sense?

But to answer the question (and did you post this over a Christian Forums? Or is it just that everyone has the same essential questions?

), I would explore what was available and see which system made the most sense to me depending on the new information.

JJM · 03-02-2004, 09:22 PM

Well if a thought came out that contradicted Christianity I wouldn't really care but if it actually proved it Wrong (although I don't know how well that could work) Then I'd say that my life style would change a little bit. Namely a whole lot less being nice to people who are Jerks. And my sexual morals would defiantly change. I don't know it’s kind of hard to say

brucegdc · 03-02-2004, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fool

Hypothetical: whatever your own beliefs that you hold now, tomorrow a certain new theory comes out, receives universal acceptance, and clearly contradicts everything you believe in.

Question: do you abandon your beliefs? If so, why? And what will you do instead?{snip}

A theory? Pshaw. Need more than that to change my mind. If I see a major problem with my beliefs (inconsistencies between actions/results), then I'll change - but without proof, you've got to have a DARNED good argument - which is close to proof.

... Bruce (who doesn't fit in a pigeonhole physically OR mentally)

Silent Wind River · 03-03-2004, 03:22 AM

For me, it would depend on what the theory actually IS. If it was a theory that I found particularly enlightening, I would probably adapt. If not, however, I would need more than I universal acceptance of a contrary belief to change what I think. Just because something is widely considered to be true does not mean that it is. In fact, in many cases, the opposite is true.

littlemissattitude · 03-05-2004, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fool

Hypothetical: whatever your own beliefs that you hold now, tomorrow a certain new theory comes out, receives universal acceptance, and clearly contradicts everything you believe in.

Question: do you abandon your beliefs? If so, why? And what will you do instead?

"Receives universal acceptance" or "is proven to be true"? There is a difference, I think..

Would I abandon my belief? If the situation were as you state it - the contradictory theory "receives universal acceptance" - I don't know that I would necessarily feel the need to abandon my belief. I've never been much influenced by the number of people who believe any particular thing. I mean, thousands of people, at the least, truly believe that Elvis lives. (I slightly know someone who does believe that, and it comes very near to a religious faith.) That does not make it true. It would not make it true if billions of people believed it, no matter how strongly or how sincerely they believed it.

However if the contradictory theory was "proven to be true", I would feel obligated, as a person of reason, to take into consideration the proof and how it relates to what I believe. Then, if that proof truly seemed valid and truly contradicted what I believe, then I would probably have to at least alter, if not abandon, the thing I believe. I mean, just because I believe something does not make it true, either, no matter how strongly and sincerely I believe it or want it to be true.

Marsh · 03-05-2004, 05:11 AM

I think it's dangerous to accept anything just because everyone else believes it to be true. For centuries we humans as a general group held true the belief that the Earth was flat. When people begin to accept the relative truths of others to be absolute truth, that's when we end up with things like Nazi Germany, and Jonestown.

I think the biggest problem with this world is that many people never question it, either because they are afraid to, are too lazy, or just don't know how to do it.

littlemissattitude · 03-05-2004, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsh

I think it's dangerous to accept anything just because everyone else believes it to be true.

I think I was trying to say this in my post when I made a differentiation between "receives universal acceptance" and "is proven to be true".

Quote:

I think the biggest problem with this world is that many people never question it, either because they are afraid to, are too lazy, or just don't know how to do it.

And I think this was the thing I was trying to get to when I said that I would "take into consideration" something that appeared to be "proven true".

I've been in a place, in terms of membership in a religious institution, where beleivers are expected to just accept whatever the leadership says, just because they say it. This is one of the biggest reasons I left that group. I think questioning is very important - but then our unofficial family motto for at least three generations has been "Question Authority".

And, Marsh, I believe that fear is the biggest reason why people don't question the way things are - or the way they are told things are. They fear appearing to be different. They fear disapproval. They fear consequences. But most of all they fear finding out that what they have always believed is not completely accurate. For some reason, most people seem to be afraid to be wrong. Laziness may play into it as well. But I honestly believe that we are all hardwired to question. It's just that so many cultures and so many religions and so many governments train the questioning right out of people by using fear and punishment, just the way people used to be - and probably in some places still are - trained out of being left-handed.

DrChaos · 03-05-2004, 10:40 PM

If there was just "universal acceptance" I would probably hold my beliefs, but if there was some solid fact that proved my beliefs wrong, then I might change. Of course, when everyone accepts something universally and you don't, you tend to get persecuted. I don't really know what I'd do to tell the truth.

samabudhi · 03-06-2004, 06:29 PM

[quote=The Fool]Hypothetical: whatever your own beliefs that you hold now, tomorrow a certain new theory comes out, receives universal acceptance, and clearly contradicts everything you believe in.

Question: do you abandon your beliefs? If so, why? And what will you do instead?[quote]

My beliefs work whether they are right or wrong. They make me happy. When you suspend judgement and avoid distinctions as in Taoism or Buddhism, it doesn't matter what the new belief says. If it doesn't make people happy then it is not fulfuling it's purpose. If it makes me and everyone else more happy more quickly with less drawbacks, then I'll practise it.

My interest is more about whether beliefs work than whether they are correct or not since ultimately we have no way of knowing anything for sure. This entire reality could just be a dream. (this is a Buddhist point of view)

Blue Heron · 03-06-2004, 08:55 PM

You said, "theory." Well, that means it isn't any more proven or unproven than anything else.

No, I don't change my spirituality or beliefs.

I have on more than one occassion found myself sitting in a room with a bunch of people who were wrong!

I, Brian · 03-07-2004, 08:08 AM

What I find interesting is how protective people are of their beliefs.

I don't know about anyone else here, but mine are in a constant state of development. What I believed yesterday may not be the same as I believe tomorrow. I will not hold onto my ideas rigidly because I know they must change as I learn more about the world.

Continuing knowledge and experience continues to shape and change ideas - more than once I have totally changed my world outlook: athiest, agnostic, theist* - yet never have I stopped and decided that because my outlook has changed, that therefore I should abandon all personal morality and become a "lesser" person.

* Which, of course, is nothing compared to members such as Bill Keith's movement from Fundamental Christian to Wiccan Priest.

littlemissattitude · 03-08-2004, 03:18 AM

I quite agree, Brian, that this protectiveness of beliefs is interesting. As I said in my initial post, I am fine with the fact that I might be wrong about the things I believe. And, especially at this time in my life, I'm not exactly sure what I believe, especially in the religious/spiritual arena. While I do believe in the concept of deity, my feelings on how deity works and how it is configured are very much in flux right now.

Something that I started to write in my first post in this thread, and then decided not to because I wasn't sure that it was what was being asked, is that I haven't ever seen a very substantial link between religious/spiritual beliefs and moral/ethical behavior. I hold the ethical and moral positions that I do not because I am afraid that God or Somebody will punish me if I don't behave myself, but because I have observed that most of the time people will treat me the way I treat them (isn't that the Golden Rule?). Since I prefer to be treated with fairness and gentleness and courtesy, I try to treat others that way. (Not that I have always been successful at this

; but I do continue to try.) I have felt this way both during times when I have been active in religious organizations as well as when, like presently, I do not participate in any sort of organized religious activity.

Archangel · 03-08-2004, 03:15 PM

True about how people protect their beliefs...even defensive about them. Because people are generally afraid of change I suppose.

Personally, I am not a believer - I either know something is true or I do not. By keeping an open mind, I can grow and any new "evidence" which might come in will only change some smaller points of view and not my entire perspective.

03-02-2004, 12:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
The Fool spare alias Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 106	You are wrong: what now? Hypothetical: whatever your own beliefs that you hold now, tomorrow a certain new theory comes out, receives universal acceptance, and clearly contradicts everything you believe in. Question: do you abandon your beliefs? If so, why? And what will you do instead? Reason: I have often see people on forums claim that if there was a way to prove their own religion wrong, then these people would no longer have a reason to to be "good" - to hold themselves in a position of moral/ethical obligation to themselves, to others, or society. This I have never understood. How would you react, though? Personally, I have never accepted any form of moral absolute, so my own moral/ethical compass I consider entirely personal.

03-08-2004, 03:18 AM	#14 (permalink)
littlemissattitude Creative Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Central California Posts: 147	I quite agree, Brian, that this protectiveness of beliefs is interesting. As I said in my initial post, I am fine with the fact that I might be wrong about the things I believe. And, especially at this time in my life, I'm not exactly sure what I believe, especially in the religious/spiritual arena. While I do believe in the concept of deity, my feelings on how deity works and how it is configured are very much in flux right now. Something that I started to write in my first post in this thread, and then decided not to because I wasn't sure that it was what was being asked, is that I haven't ever seen a very substantial link between religious/spiritual beliefs and moral/ethical behavior. I hold the ethical and moral positions that I do not because I am afraid that God or Somebody will punish me if I don't behave myself, but because I have observed that most of the time people will treat me the way I treat them (isn't that the Golden Rule?). Since I prefer to be treated with fairness and gentleness and courtesy, I try to treat others that way. (Not that I have always been successful at this; but I do continue to try.) I have felt this way both during times when I have been active in religious organizations as well as when, like presently, I do not participate in any sort of organized religious activity.

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03-02-2004, 03:03 PM	#2 (permalink)
Vajradhara Mod ~ Eastern Thought Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Dharmadhatu Posts: 2,650	Namaste brian, thank you for the topic. this is an interesting question to my mind. it's my contention that Buddhism couldn't be proven wrong... but, for the sake of argument, let's say that i, for whatever reason, no longer held it to be a valid path for me to take. which isn't so much an indication of Buddhism as it is of myself. in any event.. should that be the case, i would simply take up my Taoist praxis once more and, barring that, i would try to walk the Red Road or the Pollen Path, which are Native American Shaman traditions. it's a hard thing to seriously consider, in my opinion, since folks tend to have a great deal of emotion invested in their belief as well. i think that a person could come to intellecutally understand that their chosen path wasn't sufficient, however, that is a completely different thing to realize it emotionally.

03-02-2004, 05:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
Zenda71 General Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Eastern United States Posts: 126	I keep remembering the old saying "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him." I think that Buddhism would remain a valid path regardless of belief because its goal is to see things as they are. New information could be incorporated quite easily, unless you are clinging to the old ideas. Does that make sense? But to answer the question (and did you post this over a Christian Forums? Or is it just that everyone has the same essential questions? ), I would explore what was available and see which system made the most sense to me depending on the new information.

03-02-2004, 09:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
JJM Established member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 375	Well if a thought came out that contradicted Christianity I wouldn't really care but if it actually proved it Wrong (although I don't know how well that could work) Then I'd say that my life style would change a little bit. Namely a whole lot less being nice to people who are Jerks. And my sexual morals would defiantly change. I don't know it’s kind of hard to say

03-03-2004, 03:22 AM	#6 (permalink)
Silent Wind River New Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17	For me, it would depend on what the theory actually IS. If it was a theory that I found particularly enlightening, I would probably adapt. If not, however, I would need more than I universal acceptance of a contrary belief to change what I think. Just because something is widely considered to be true does not mean that it is. In fact, in many cases, the opposite is true.

03-05-2004, 05:11 AM	#8 (permalink)
Marsh Smile: God loves you! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Where am I from? None of your business, eh! Hosers... Posts: 172	I think it's dangerous to accept anything just because everyone else believes it to be true. For centuries we humans as a general group held true the belief that the Earth was flat. When people begin to accept the relative truths of others to be absolute truth, that's when we end up with things like Nazi Germany, and Jonestown. I think the biggest problem with this world is that many people never question it, either because they are afraid to, are too lazy, or just don't know how to do it.

03-05-2004, 10:40 PM	#10 (permalink)
DrChaos New Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 14	If there was just "universal acceptance" I would probably hold my beliefs, but if there was some solid fact that proved my beliefs wrong, then I might change. Of course, when everyone accepts something universally and you don't, you tend to get persecuted. I don't really know what I'd do to tell the truth.

03-06-2004, 06:29 PM	#11 (permalink)
samabudhi Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 417	[quote=The Fool]Hypothetical: whatever your own beliefs that you hold now, tomorrow a certain new theory comes out, receives universal acceptance, and clearly contradicts everything you believe in. Question: do you abandon your beliefs? If so, why? And what will you do instead?[quote] My beliefs work whether they are right or wrong. They make me happy. When you suspend judgement and avoid distinctions as in Taoism or Buddhism, it doesn't matter what the new belief says. If it doesn't make people happy then it is not fulfuling it's purpose. If it makes me and everyone else more happy more quickly with less drawbacks, then I'll practise it. My interest is more about whether beliefs work than whether they are correct or not since ultimately we have no way of knowing anything for sure. This entire reality could just be a dream. (this is a Buddhist point of view)

03-06-2004, 08:55 PM	#12 (permalink)
Blue Heron Gaurds the Gate Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Northern Ohio Posts: 24	You said, "theory." Well, that means it isn't any more proven or unproven than anything else. No, I don't change my spirituality or beliefs. I have on more than one occassion found myself sitting in a room with a bunch of people who were wrong!

03-07-2004, 08:08 AM	#13 (permalink)
I, Brian Soul Rebel Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Highlands of Scotland Posts: 4,604	What I find interesting is how protective people are of their beliefs. I don't know about anyone else here, but mine are in a constant state of development. What I believed yesterday may not be the same as I believe tomorrow. I will not hold onto my ideas rigidly because I know they must change as I learn more about the world. Continuing knowledge and experience continues to shape and change ideas - more than once I have totally changed my world outlook: athiest, agnostic, theist* - yet never have I stopped and decided that because my outlook has changed, that therefore I should abandon all personal morality and become a "lesser" person. * Which, of course, is nothing compared to members such as Bill Keith's movement from Fundamental Christian to Wiccan Priest.

03-08-2004, 03:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
Archangel New Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 15	True about how people protect their beliefs...even defensive about them. Because people are generally afraid of change I suppose. Personally, I am not a believer - I either know something is true or I do not. By keeping an open mind, I can grow and any new "evidence" which might come in will only change some smaller points of view and not my entire perspective.