Word of God

[streetbob2006]

Originally Posted by libertylover76

Hi, streetbob2006, glad you like the forum. Hi, everyone.

Everything that you say above is explaining that, yes, the words in the Bible can be twisted, misinterpreted and taken out of context. We have no disagreement on that.

Your claim and that of Cage above is that the Bible is not the Word of God, because, well, the Bible doesn’t say it is. That’s a little self-referential, but fits in with one of the things I said back at YouTube – that different people interpret the Bible in different ways, and you-all must admit that there are Christians who claim that the Bible is the exact Word of God, inscribed by His hand. And I’ll bet they can find Bible passages that support their interpretation as well.

It’s hard for me to argue that the Bible is any different than any other book that folks have written from stories that were passed around back when we humans were really good at accurately remembering vast amounts of text, because I don’t believe that it is. (As an aside, I could write a whole website just about our over-reliance on the printed word.) So I take your correction at face value and agree that the Bible is not a perfect document and can be misread, either deliberately or accidentally.

Then what? What is there about the Bible that makes it any more worthwhile as a moral guide than Plato’s Republic, or the Qur'an, or the Bhagavad Gita or even The Book of Five Rings? Cage has cited Biblical passages in support of his/her position that the Bible is a moral guide, but that is very self-referential. Do we have any objective standard, outside of the Bible that we can rely on to point to it as a special book, above and beyond all others?

The bible was written over a span of 1500 years, over 3 continents,and has more then 40 authors and it is consistent. (try taking 3 professors at te same university studying the same topic...have them write a paper on the same thing and see how consistent they are) It explains the begining of the world and it tells us about the end of the world. It starts for the looking of the messsiah and later it is fulfilled in CHrist. It prophecys hundreds of times and it is right on every time. It is never been contridicted scientifically,historically, and in any other fashion. EX Isaiah 53:5 written around 750 years before CHrist says about him (check the Dead Sea scrolls) "but he was wounded for pur transgressions; brusied for our iniquities...the LOrd laid the inquity of us all on him."


Check all other books that claim to be Holy and they are either written by one guy (easy to make up something) or they contridict one another. NOne of them predict the future.

Everything in the Old Testament is symbolic of CHrist. The exodus from Egypt, circumsition,the sacrficifial lambs. No other book it like it. In the bible it says to wash with running water for cleaniness reasons...we did not do this till about 75 years ago becuase people at the time thought it was better to wash in tubs. Jesus fufilled over 150 prophecies! That is amazing. No other book can predict the future.


Not many other religons span back as far Historically as CHristianity does. (in judaism) It was not just started in 600 AD were there was nothing before it.

Sorry its all over the place...want to say more...got to get back to work

[libertylover76]

Consistently self-contradictory.
The history is bogus.
The science is pure nonsense.
None of the predictions have come true.
I don't understand how the OT points to Jesus or the Christ, any more than Nostrodamus' writings point to "Hisler." Sure, after-the-fact the NT was written to try to tie into the OT, but so what?

Still doesn't anwer the question: What can we point to outside of the Bible to show the value of it as a moral guide?

[libertylover76]

Street,

See you in a couple of days.

Thanks,

ME

[streetbob2006]

Hey Liberty, can you give me an example of the contradictions? the bogus history? the bad science and predictions that have not come true? Are you assuming these things or do you have evidence to back them up?

Do you understand CHristianity? Its a lot more then a moral guide. I would love to bring you through something that would clearify some things. It might shed some light on the subject....are you up for it?

[streetbob2006]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Streetbob.

Your quotes below do imply that the Word of God is known to men but they do not say that the Word of God is the Bible (OT in this case). Not all of the OT was prophecy. In the NT Jesus was the Word of God, not the book. Inspired by God, to me, means just that, the people who wrote it were inspired by their knowledge of and/or experience of God. Further we can fully accept the entire Bible as sacred, a trustworthy means for God to speak to us today.

2c,
lunamoth

Hey Luna, yes Jesus is refered to many times in the NT as "the word of GOd", but there are many times that the word of God is referred to as the message of God itself...not CHrist. The first verse I gave Jesus was refering to the Old Testament and calling it the word of GOd. The second 2 were from the NT. Many other times the scriptures refer to themselves as Holy Scriptures.. (set apart) MOre in depth tomorrow. GOd bless..

[Cage]

Originally Posted by streetbob2006

Hey Luna, yes Jesus is refered to many times in the NT as "the word of GOd", but there are many times that the word of God is referred to as the message of God itself...not CHrist. The first verse I gave Jesus was refering to the Old Testament and calling it the word of GOd. The second 2 were from the NT. Many other times the scriptures refer to themselves as Holy Scriptures.. (set apart) MOre in depth tomorrow. GOd bless..

Actually, the first verse Jesus was referring to one of the ten Commandments. "Thall shalt honer thy mother and thy father" He never said, or even suggested that he was talking about the entire OT....only a commandment of God.

Mark 7:7-13

7. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11. But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13. Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Much Love,

[Cage]

Actually, he was probably speaking about Gods commandments altogether. I had to go back and re-read that part, sorry. Even so, no mention of OT...just the commandments.

I should have quoted more, I think...

Mark 7:6-13 (KJV)

6. He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11. But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13. Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Much Love,

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by libertylover76

I invited streetbob2006 to join me from a discussion we were having at YouTube.

I hope he/she decides to come over.

Benny Hill ... Heh awesome...

LOL

"Check all other books that claim to be Holy and they are either written by one guy (easy to make up something) or they contridict one another. NOne of them predict the future." - Streetbob.

It's easy for one person to make something up? But not easy for a group of people to make something up? That logic tickles me. Just because the bible "doesn't contridict" itself makes it in no way or form the truth.... I have a few books of "barny the owl" and all of them are in harmony and don't contradict each other!!"£$!" Maybe these are the word of a god!!! The only thing that is contridicting in christianity is... christians. Sure your book seems to have a steady flow but that means nothing really.

"Not many other religons span back as far Historically as CHristianity does. (in judaism) It was not just started in 600 AD were there was nothing before it" - Streetbob.

Christianity is the second YOUNGEST mainsteam religion....

[Virtual_Cliff]

... And then you discover that the opening of the Gospel of John is taken almost word for word from the Upanishads. That really makes you think.

I'm sure there are many texts from ancient times to the present day that are inspired by God. And many that are not. This is the trouble with putting your faith in a book rather than in God.

[Dondi]

"And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " - Matthew 4:3-4

It is written. Implies something that is written down. Let's look at the verse in question as referencd in the OT:

"All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." - Deut 8:1-3


So it is referencing the commandments as laid out in the Torah, the Law of Moses.

Jesus summed up the Law in two commandments in Matthew 22:37-40:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

I would not have you overlook the importance of this last statement, for it is vital for us to realize how the Word of God is really enacted in our lives.

Why was Jesus referred as the Word of God? Because He live perfectly according to the commandments of God. He embodied the Law. And He was able to keep the commandments not by following the letter of the Law, but by being led by the Spirit of God. The very essence of God's Spirit is the key to fulfilling the Law.

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law....
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." - Galatians 5:18, 22-23

I would submit to you that the Word of God is spiritual. It is commandments written in the human heart through the Spirit of God.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." - Ezekiel 36:26-27

What we have here in the document we call the Bible is an imperfect representation of the spiritual Word of God that is Perfect. Much like the Tabernacle is representative of the Tabernacle not made with hands, the Bible is pointer to that which is spiritual.

That is why the Bible can be imperfect, but useful to pointing us to the Perfect. The truth is there, but it must be experienced.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I would submit to you that the Word of God is spiritual. It is commandments written in the human heart through the Spirit of God.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." - Ezekiel 36:26-27

What we have here in the document we call the Bible is an imperfect representation of the spiritual Word of God that is Perfect. Much like the Tabernacle is representative of the Tabernacle not made with hands, the Bible is pointer to that which is spiritual.

That is why the Bible can be imperfect, but useful to pointing us to the Perfect. The truth is there, but it must be experienced.

Very nice Dondi. I agree.

luna

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, and welcome to CR!

Originally Posted by libertylover76

1. Consistently self-contradictory.
2. The history is bogus.
3. The science is pure nonsense.
4. None of the predictions have come true.
5. I don't understand how the OT points to Jesus or the Christ, any more than Nostrodamus' writings point to "Hisler." Sure, after-the-fact the NT was written to try to tie into the OT, but so what?

6. Still doesn't anwer the question: What can we point to outside of the Bible to show the value of it as a moral guide?

1. False
2. False
3. What science?
4. False
5. Of course, it depends on perspective. From a Jewish perspective; Jesus does not fulfill prophecy. From a Christian perspective; Jesus fulfills many, but not all, prophecies. From an outside perspective with an axe to grind who have no interest in considering Biblical teachings as sacred; this debate is meaningless, irrelevent and doesn't matter how many prophecies are fulfilled because prophecy is not believed anyway. So, how can a non-believer possibly raise this as a valid pointof contention if the parameters are outside of the scope of belief? That's just non-sense.
6. For one, the "golden rule" of "do unto others as you would have them do to you" is found in various forms across all of the major world faiths and a great majority of the minor world faiths.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Dondi

"And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " - Matthew 4:3-4

It is written. Implies something that is written down. Let's look at the verse in question as referencd in the OT:

"All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." - Deut 8:1-3


So it is referencing the commandments as laid out in the Torah, the Law of Moses.

Jesus summed up the Law in two commandments in Matthew 22:37-40:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

I would not have you overlook the importance of this last statement, for it is vital for us to realize how the Word of God is really enacted in our lives.

Why was Jesus referred as the Word of God? Because He live perfectly according to the commandments of God. He embodied the Law. And He was able to keep the commandments not by following the letter of the Law, but by being led by the Spirit of God. The very essence of God's Spirit is the key to fulfilling the Law.

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law....
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." - Galatians 5:18, 22-23

I would submit to you that the Word of God is spiritual. It is commandments written in the human heart through the Spirit of God.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." - Ezekiel 36:26-27

What we have here in the document we call the Bible is an imperfect representation of the spiritual Word of God that is Perfect. Much like the Tabernacle is representative of the Tabernacle not made with hands, the Bible is pointer to that which is spiritual.

That is why the Bible can be imperfect, but useful to pointing us to the Perfect. The truth is there, but it must be experienced.

Great post, and I agree 100%.


Much Love,

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dondi

"And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " - Matthew 4:3-4

It is written. Implies something that is written down. Let's look at the verse in question as referencd in the OT:

"All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." - Deut 8:1-3


So it is referencing the commandments as laid out in the Torah, the Law of Moses.

Jesus summed up the Law in two commandments in Matthew 22:37-40:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

I would not have you overlook the importance of this last statement, for it is vital for us to realize how the Word of God is really enacted in our lives.

Why was Jesus referred as the Word of God? Because He live perfectly according to the commandments of God. He embodied the Law. And He was able to keep the commandments not by following the letter of the Law, but by being led by the Spirit of God. The very essence of God's Spirit is the key to fulfilling the Law.

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law....
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." - Galatians 5:18, 22-23

I would submit to you that the Word of God is spiritual. It is commandments written in the human heart through the Spirit of God.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." - Ezekiel 36:26-27

What we have here in the document we call the Bible is an imperfect representation of the spiritual Word of God that is Perfect. Much like the Tabernacle is representative of the Tabernacle not made with hands, the Bible is pointer to that which is spiritual.

That is why the Bible can be imperfect, but useful to pointing us to the Perfect. The truth is there, but it must be experienced.

One more passage I would like to add:

Originally Posted by Jeremiah 31:31-34

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

One more passage I would like to add:

You know, seattlegal, I was looking for that verse a while ago, also. Thank you for finding it.