Wicca - Too Many Rituals?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Barefootinthegrass

There are many opinions about the ins and outs of what Wicca is, some Wiccans will hold opinions which directly contradict another's opinion. Happens all the time. With the greatest of respect to you and your family, I have been taught that the Rede is advice, not a rule, in terms of the origin of the word Rede (the Wiccan Rede).

Please also remember that the priest/ess's you know will be the priest/ess's of their covens, they aren't a higher authority over any other Wiccans. Wicca doesn't work the same way as Christianity.

Blessings.

Wow, that makes for serious thought. And I find that unsettling as well.

The rules are, there are no rules...? Anarchy at best...

v/r

Q

[Barefootinthegrass]

No, not anarchy. Personal responsability. The having of morals and a good grasp of right and wrong does not depend on being religious.

[Barefootinthegrass]

Originally Posted by BeautifulMadness

Maybe I've got it wrong, but I thought that Barefootinthegrass meant you only have to answer to yourself (in the way you do your ritual) as opposed to answering to a coven? In other words, yes, you ARE answering to the divine etc, but you are not answering to other people's opinions on the way you conduct your rituals. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Thankyou! that's exactly what I meant. Perhaps I could have worded it more clearly.

Blessings.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Barefootinthegrass

No, not anarchy. Personal responsability. The having of morals and a good grasp of right and wrong does not depend on being religious.

Of course not (forgive me if I implied such). But as you just stated (para), morality is "subjective", as opposed to being objective or black and white. This is where we disagree. Religion has nothing to do with doing what is right...agreed. It simply re-inforces what we perceive as correct.

And even in Wicca there are absolutes. Unlike other magic(k)al ways of life, Wicca promises one absolute..."harm no one"...

For one like you to come along and call this absolute rule nothing but "advice", is nothing reassuring. That means you are subject to pull the plug anytime you wish, and without notice. You destroy the very confidence you wish to build in people. You hamstring your own cause.

Now, I am nervous about my own family members and Wicca.

v/r

Q

[Barefootinthegrass]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Of course not (forgive me if I implied such). But as you just stated (para), morality is "subjective", as opposed to being objective or black and white. This is where we disagree. Religion has nothing to do with doing what is right...agreed. It simply re-inforces what we perceive as correct.

And even in Wicca there are absolutes. Unlike other magic(k)al ways of life, Wicca promises one absolute..."harm no one"...

For one like you to come along and call this absolute rule nothing but "advice", is nothing reassuring. That means you are subject to pull the plug anytime you wish, and without notice. You destroy the very confidence you wish to build in people. You hamstring your own cause.

Now, I am nervous about my own family members and Wicca.

v/r Q

Please don't be nervous of them! I'm sorry if I've upset you. I don't mean to imply that by saying it is advice that I feel I can disregard it at any time. That's certainly not the case, I assure you. As I've mentioned already in a previous post, I and every other Wiccan do my very, very best not to harm anyone. This is because to intentionally set out to harm someone is wrong. I know this because I am a decent person who has been well brought up by her parents.

Anyone who calls themselves a Wiccan and yet sets out to harm another is, in my opinion, on the wrong path. No Wiccan, I state again, will set out to harm anyone.

In calling the saying 'Do as thou will if it harm none' advice, I'm refering to the origins of the word Rede.

In a sense, I suppose I was nit picking. We do live by this saying as if it were a rule...because we CHOOSE to. Because we believe it's right. It is part of what defines us as Wiccan.

[bgruagach]

The Wiccan Rede and the Threefold Law are certainly common among Wiccans but they are not universal, and as people have pointed out they are not considered to be absolute commandments by even those Wiccans who do include them in their philosophy.

There are Gardnerian and Alexandrian covens that do not include the Rede for instance. Are they not Wiccans because they don't include the Rede in their practice?

I highly recommend that all Wiccans read the essay The Wiccan Rede: A Historical Journey and also the material in Shea Thomas' The Wiccan Rede Project for a better understanding of the Rede in particular and how it has come to prominence within some Wiccan denominations.

[I, Brian]

Are we back to "10 different witches, 10 different answers"?

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Are we back to "10 different witches, 10 different answers"?

That's what we get when the religion does not have a central authority. No pope and no single central scripture means there is diversity.

Personally I think that this is one of Wicca's greatest strengths. But it is definitely a double-edged sword.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Are we back to "10 different witches, 10 different answers"?

No, ten witches and one Catholic...lone man is out.

v/r

Q

[wil]

That's what we get when the religion does not have a central authority. No pope and no single central scripture means there is diversity.

ah me thinks we could quiz 10 priests even 10 bishops or cardinals and get 10 differing answers...

how about 10 IRS agents or CPAs or lawyers...

just because there are more rules it doesn't imply concise thinking....

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by wil

ah me thinks we could quiz 10 priests even 10 bishops or cardinals and get 10 differing answers...

how about 10 IRS agents or CPAs or lawyers...

just because there are more rules it doesn't imply concise thinking....

The big difference with IRS agents, priests, bishops, CPAs, and lawyers though is that they are, generally, working in a system where there is a centralized authority. Either they have some sort of written document which is considered authoritative, or else they have a hierarchy in place where the people at the top are the final arbiters on matters of what the rules are which they must follow.

Wicca is a religion where there is no central authority. We do not have a pope, no council of elders, not even a holy scripture to provide that central authority. Each denomination is free to make up its own rules, and in many of the denominations they even explicitly state that each coven is autonomous.

Things like the Wiccan Rede and the Threefold Return are common among Wiccans, but because we don't have a central authority there is no way they or anything else can be enforced as requirements.

[morningstar2651]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

if you are interested in basing your wicca on a sound philosophical basis which doesn't involve bitching out christians or fluffies (by which i would mean the sort of fools who buy silver ravenwolf's books or think that merlin stone is a reputable historian) i would recommend amber laine fisher's sterling book "philosophy of wicca". amber's a mate of mine (and visits here occasionally, actually) and i flatter myself that her dialogue with me had a certain influence on the development of the book.

b'shalom

bananabrain

I second the book nomination. I haven't read it cover-to-cover, but it's very good, and I always recommend it as the first thing to read. I want students to find answers to the question "why?" before they look at the question "how?"

[Wendigo]

Usually the 'fluffbunny' types are drawn to such things as wicca, because they feel they can do whatever the heck they want and still be part of the wiccan community. what ever happened to discipline in a spiritual path? with no discipline, there is no direction and growth. and in regards to magick, casting a circle is a precautionary practice, because magick isnt all in a happy, peaceful realm; there are dangers to it. Thats a risk you take if one is not prepared, and doing whatever they 'feel'. It reminds me of that old Simpsons episode where the town decided to 'do what they felt like' everything began to fall apart.

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Originally Posted by Barefootinthegrass

I'd just like to point out that the 'Do as thou will, if it harm none.' saying is NOT a 'rule' in Wicca, it is in fact advice. It is something Wiccans try their hardest to live up to. Such a 'rule' would be impossible to live by. You cannot live and breathe on this planet without the possibility of harming something. There are consequences to absolutely everything a person does, be it magickally or otherwise.

Maybe this is already cleared up to everyone's satisfaction, but I'd just like to add my two cents. I think what Barefootinthegrass (cool name) is saying here is basically that we are all imperfect. Just like in Christianity there are rules for behaviour, but no one lives up to them perfectly all the time. And then there are consequences. Wiccans strive to "harm none", but sometimes we fail in that. Just like people of any religion. But in Wicca there's no one else who's going to get you out of your own mess. You made your bed, now you lay in it.

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Usually the 'fluffbunny' types are drawn to such things as wicca, because they feel they can do whatever the heck they want and still be part of the wiccan community. what ever happened to discipline in a spiritual path? with no discipline, there is no direction and growth. and in regards to magick, casting a circle is a precautionary practice, because magick isnt all in a happy, peaceful realm; there are dangers to it. Thats a risk you take if one is not prepared, and doing whatever they 'feel'. It reminds me of that old Simpsons episode where the town decided to 'do what they felt like' everything began to fall apart.

Diversity is a mixed blessing. It means there is a lot of variety to choose from, but it also means that there are varying standards. No matter what you do there will always be someone out there who is "more serious" than you and who will likely consider you to be the "fluff bunny."

Even religions that are based on hierarchical systems with authorities -- leaders of the particular group, and even formal "holy scriptures" -- have some measure of diversity. Who owns the term "Christian" and has the authority to say which groups are allowed to call themselves that? What about "Jewish" or "Muslim"? Can someone who is not serious enough be told that they are no longer allowed to consider themselves to be Christian, Jewish, or Muslim?

Wicca is not a hierarchical system with a single authority that dictates to all Wiccan groups and practitioners. Sure, there are established groups within the Wiccan community that do have their own authority structures in place -- but they are only authoritative within their own groups. There is no Wiccan Pope and no Wiccan Holy Scripture that all must follow. Some see it as a problem (such as the frequent agonizing over "fluffy bunnies" who are clearly not Wiccan enough by some standards) but the autonomy is something that many Wiccans are loathe to sacrifice.

If we were to abandon the autonomy of individual Wiccan denominations, groups, and solitary practitioners for the sake of establishing an Ultimate Wiccan Authority, who should be that authority? The Gardnerians? The Alexandrians? Who?

It's like expecting Protestants to hand over ultimate authority over what is Christian to the Roman Catholics. It just isn't going to happen.