Why the Palestinians fight

[Tao_Equus]

Hi again BB,

There is a point I wish to clarify.

It is with the greatest regret that I feel forced to draw analogies between Nazi treatment of the Jewish people in Europe and the Israeli treatment of Palestinians. But what other analogy in history better reflects the situation in Gaza today than the Ghetto's of Nazi Germany? The parallels are strikingly obvious. Outside of Gaza the daily humiliations that ordinary men, women and children are subjected to are also directly analogous to the humiliations that the Nazi's subjected the Jews to. A woman dying in childbirth at a checkpoint while Israeli soldiers laugh at her agony is a crime against humanity. Bulldozing whole villages is a component part of a policy of genocide. I do not find these analogies by stretching a twisted imagination. I find them because they leap out at me in their stark, hard, cold and bloody reality. I am not an anti-Semite. I loathe fascism wherever it is found. But I am filled with the deepest sense of angry sadness that a people so abused allow the leadership of Israel to become the doppelgänger of the rising Third Reich. The concentration camps are such recent history that no Jew should put his or her name to the crimes that take place in the name of all Jews, in the State set up for Jews following the holocaust. But if you think I tar all Jews as a party to what is being done then that is plain wrong. There are Jews more outspoken on this issue than I ever could be. Jews that are bright enough to see that the policy is set far across the Atlantic and not by what ever useless rag-bag coalition Israel calls a government. As long as you and people everywhere are hoodwinked into the idea that Hamas has to stop for a real peace process to begin then the big corporate government puppetmasters in the US are delighted. Mission accomplished.

Tao

[Muslimwoman]

I just want to start by saying how saddened I was at the murders of 8 Jewish students in the Seminary last week, my prayers are with their families and I am so sorry for their loss.

I also pray for the family of the murderer - yes shocking and not something I thought I would ever say but bear with me before you throw your teddy out of the pram. I believe that the Israeli governement so far has found no links between the killer and fundamentalist groups? Reports here say a 26 year old man sat in the home he was born in and the Israeli government raided his home and took his 2 brothers into custody 2 nights before. 140 Palestinians including so many children AGAIN had been killed in the week leading up to this incident. He drove his car to the area and started killing knowing he wouldn't survive. This wasn't a suicide attack - I think he just snapped?

I am just dazed and saddened and confused and scared for the future of all people living in that area of the world.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

with any luck he will be forced to resign by the outcry i anticipate from around the world.

I am not hearing any outcry BB. Hmmm de ja vue. I really hope you can provide something to show I have simply failed to read/hear/see about the international outcry just to bring some hope to me.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

they are contributing to anti-israel feeling around the world.

And the understatement award goes to ...... BB

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i guess what i'd genuinely like to know is what exactly do people like yourself think the israelis should be doing?

Well they could start by stopping this:

Government cautions Israel on illegal settlements | UK | Reuters

From the article: Israel announced in February it intended to build 1,100 new homes in East Jerusalem, which Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war and annexed unilaterally in a move that is not recognised internationally.

I watched an interview on al Jazeera english last week of a family whose land had quite recently been forceably taken by Israel in order to build an army out-post (wish I could remember the name of the place). Their home, along with others had been demolished, their olive trees uprooted and they are now refugees. The land they owned and their house stood on is now being used not to build an army out-post but another residential settlement. Please ask yourself, if that was your land and your families home and income how incredibly pee'd off would you be now and if you were a young male with testosterone filling your body what would you be prepared to do to get some retaliation - even if you knew it was futile?

I have to admit I totally fail to comprehend the Israeli government on this issue of land theft and building settlements on it. It is like pouring petrol on a fire so WHY do they keep doing it?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

how do you deal with people who don't mind using their own women and children as human shields and are not interested in negotiating?

The same way we did with the IRA. It took us decades to learn that fighting achieved nothing but bodies, we had to negotiate. The IRA didn't want to negotiate for years but when the right moves were made they came to the table (may I suggest Israel could begin with the issue I posted above and stop killing women and children with such regularity).

Remember this? http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articl...249568,00.html

This in my view is the way forward - another missed opportunity over bloody land.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

if this was the UK, the equivalent would be a welsh group firing rockets into bristol, day after day after day - it doesn't prevent retaliation, it doesn't do *anything* else, doesn't harm military capacity - what is the *point*?

Because it gives them a feeling they are at least doing something to protect themselves, their families and their land. It relieves their anger, fear and frustration. It stops them feeling impotent in the face of overwhelming military odds. (only guessing, I am not Palestinian)

Originally Posted by bananabrain

when they disengaged, hamas just used the extra space to move the rockets up to the border and hit further into israel.

You ask below what Israel should do and I have answered as best I can above, so I ask you what Palestine should do. There is not a single year that the US has not supplied masses of weapons to Israel, including during the 20 month ceasefire. So why is it ok for Israel to arm itself to the teeth with US weapons during a ceasefire but not ok for the Palestinians to try to do the same?

For 2006, the Administration has requested $240 million in ESF and $2.28 billion in FMF (Foreign Military Financing).

2.28 billion dollars for one financial year for weapons This was approved by the US government DURING the ceasefire!

As usual there are 2 sides to every story.

Tensions rose yesterday when Israeli troops shot dead three Palestinian youths, the first killings since militants agreed with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in March to the truce. Palestinian medics said the youths were aged 14 to 16.

Militants retaliated by firing mortar bombs and rockets at Jewish settlements and Israeli army bases, and Hamas and another leading militant group, Islamic Jihad, issued warnings to Israel but stopped short of ending the ceasefire.

Sorry I think I have posted these in the wrong bit but am verrry tired so just mentally slot it in where it is relevant. (note - they are from 2 different periods). I am curious as to why this happened? We know Palestinian children throwing rocks get shot with sickening regularity, surely this was a perfect excuse for Hamas, who you say are not interested in peace or negotiating, to retaliate?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the israelis have tried ceasefires, they've tried ramping it up, they've tried dialling it down - what are they supposed to do? they're not about to give up and emigrate, which is what hamas actually want.

Be fair BB Israel have broken ceasefires too, I can post links all night to UN papers but know we both know Israel have repeatedly broken ceasefires over the years. Look at the blue bit above, the Palestinians have tried to support ceasefires too but Israel continued air strikes - both sides are guilty of breaking ceasefires.

24 Dec 2007 Yesterday Haim Ramon, Israel's deputy prime minister, confirmed that his government wanted to topple Hamas."We are fighting Hamas and are seeking to weaken its control of Gaza, and bring about the end of its reign there. Hamas should hand over control of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority," he said.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was forceful in expressing Washington's view on the matter to Israeli officials that even exploratory negotiations with Syria are not to be attempted. Israel has thus far obeyed Washington's demand to desist from officially returning to peace talks.

These are from 2 different sources but show that Israel and the US are not trying to make peace or support ceasefires imo - not that I am suggesting Hamas or Syria are waving olive branches!

Originally Posted by bananabrain

if the criterion of rightness is number of civilans intentionally killed, then israel "wins".

One thing I find quite interesting in this conflict is the willingness of the Palestinians to 'own up' when a fighter is killed. When we were dealing with the IRA the moment a terrorist was shot dead people would rush to surround the body and women and children would be seen taking any evidence of them being a fighter away. It would then be claimed they were an innocent bystander.

So I am relatively happy to go with the flow on the numbers of fighter to civilians killed by Israel and therefore have to disagree with you.

In 2007 (up to 29 December), Israeli security forces killed 373 Palestinians (290 in Gaza , 83 in the West Bank ), 53 among them minors. By comparison, in 2006, 657 Palestinians were killed, including 140 minors: 523 in Gaza , 134 in the West Bank . In 2007, about 35 percent of those killed were civilians who were not taking part in the hostilities when killed. This is a reduction in comparison with the number of casualties who did not participate in the hostilities in 2006, which was 54 percent, (348 persons).
Palestinians killed seven Israeli civilians (three in a suicide attack in Eilat, two in Sderot by Qassam attacks, and two by gunfire in the West Bank ). This is the lowest number of Israeli civilian casualties since the beginning of the Intifada. Palestinians also killed six Israeli security forces. In 2006, Palestinians killed 17 Israeli civilians.

B'Tselem - Press Releases - 31 Dec. 2007: B'Tselem: 131 Palestinians who did not participate in the hostilities killed by Israel's security forces in 2007

2007 # of Israelis killed 10

(OPT: 5 soldiers, 1 settler; Israel: 4)

Forty Times More Palestinians Killed than Israelis in 2007; Rate of Israeli attacks against, and killing of Palestinians doubles since Annapolis

What is 35% of 373? I make it 130 - even if only 10% were targeted killings of civilians that would compare 13 to 5 (the 10% is just a figure I plucked out of the air to be generous)....... (how dreadful that we are discussing dead people in this way).

I realise you may wish to say that Palestinians deliberately target civilians and I would agree with you but I would say the same for Israel. As I have said on another thread (where I compared stats of children killed during the decades of the IRA troubles to those killed by Israel in a single year), I have served in conflict zones and yes accidental civilian casualties happen but on the scale of Palestine - I ain't buying it. Yes Palestinians target civilians and it is wrong, wrong, wrong but so do Israel and it is wrong, wrong, wrong. The only difference is one side admit it.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

yes, i do. nonetheless, i regret her death, as i do of anyone undeserving of it. however, she didn't exactly act in a sensible or safe way and, in a way, it's hardly surprising, even without malice aforethought.

Am very surprised at you here BB. What was not sensible or safe? She was wearing a flourescent jacket, she stood on a mound so the driver could clearly see her and she had a megaphone so he could hear her.

Pictures tell stories:

Stop Caterpillar : Photo story: Israeli bulldozer driver murders American peace activist

So why is it not surprising? It surprises the f out of me!!

Originally Posted by bananabrain

like the basic human rights of the israelis not to be bombed, blown up, rocketed, stabbed and so on? tell me, are your cuddly hamasniks interested in human rights, or are they more interested in teaching children to hate jews using ripped-off cuddly disney characters?

Well you know my views on the disney characters and the morons that produce and teach such hatred but we can also see video's of young Israeli children throwing rocks and shouting offensive abuse at Muslim Arabs - they have to learn this hatred somewhere surely? My guess is at home and in school and in the streets but still they learn it.

But what about the Palestinian peoples human rights? Where are their human rights when their land is divided up by European countries, their homes are forceably taken, bulldozed and land they own is given to Israelis to live on? Where are their human rights when Israel openly admits to collective punishment of innocent civilians? What about when they die in ambulances because it takes 6 hours to check papers and check for arms? Or die in schools trying to get an education. Not allowed to go to school or use certain roads? Have power cut off, water cut off? The thousands of prisoners held for years and years without a trial?

Again 2 very ugly sides to one story but both peoples have human rights and I would suggest that as a whole the human rights of the Palestinians are being abused much more than the Israelis at this time.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i'm not diverting the truth, nor am i denying palestinian suffering. but where are the *medical experiments*, here, tao? where are the *ovens*? where are the *gas chambers*? where is the *extermination policy"?

I would certainly call the current situation in Gaza so similar to the Jewish ghettos it is scary. No it is nothing like the final solution but the similarities to the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany prior to the implementation of the final solution is turning stomachs I am afraid - mine included and the fact that most people see the creation of Israel as a direct result of the treatment of Jews, during this early period, it is easy to see why people make comparisons - unfair perhaps but understandable. Jews didn't like being thrown out of their homes and herded into ghettos, economically shut off, their businesses shut down, put into what were effectively open prisons, where basic supplies were controlled and withheld to control the people, where movement was totally restricted, etc - so why are they now doing exactly this to the civilian population of Gaza???

Perhaps we could all agree that the term holocaust refers to 'a burnt offering, destruction by fire or mass destruction of human life'? This would mean that the "holocaust" began when the mass killing of Jews began. That is not to try to dismiss the suffering of people prior to the killing but may make these discussions easier to navigate?

[Tao_Equus]

From today's Guardian:

Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, embraced the rightwing settler movement yesterday by saying he shared their pain in the wake of last week's killings at a Jewish religious school and by approving 530 new settler homes in the West Bank.The decision to build in Givat Ze'ev, a Jewish settlement near the Palestinian administrative centre of Ramallah, has dealt another blow to the faltering US-backed Annapolis peace process, Palestinians and diplomatic sources say.

To build settlements like this is as blatant a declaration of a long term strategy as you can get. Israel has absolutely no interest or intention of living in peace with Palestinians.

Tao

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So the guy charged with studying the situation for the UN says that Israel leaves the Palestinians no other option but to continue firing off rockets and attempting suicide missions. Does he too have no intellectual integrity, is he a disreputable commentator?

well, if he says they have "no other option", he is not only biased, but thick as well. so what if he works for the UN? did you hear about the durban conference? LIBYA sits on the human rights council - but no, the UN is impartial, isn't it....

If you know anything about Mossad and their subsidiary trawlers, like the Anti Defamation League, and how they operate then you would know I'm not a paranoid but a realist.

so now the ADL (a group i strongly disapprove of, incidentally) are a subsidiary of mossad? this is right up there with your characterisation of myself as a supporter of ethnic cleansing! mossad is an intelligence agency. are there any intelligence agencies you *approve* of? perhaps you think national security should be run by shami chakrabarti, lord longford and the guardian?

But if you want to take what was really intended as tongue in cheek seriously go ahead.

the fact that you think one can make "tongue in cheek" comparisons of the israelis to the nazis reveals your ignorance both of the nazis and just how they are viewed by jews, especially in israel - this is a country where even playing the music of wagner can cause a serious incident. my father-in-law was in auschwitz, tao. i'm all too familiar with the mechanics and facts of the holocaust - and if you think that i am likely to find your sort of pathetic moral relativism on this subject amusing then you can think again.

Hamas has no choice but to carry on with this tactic because it is their only way to keep world attention on their plight.

that is such total rubbish. they haven't TRIED anything else. they're NOT INTERESTED. it is only because gullible fools keep making excuses for them that they continue to treat the deaths of their own people as PR fodder.

Israel milks all the international sympathy it can from them.

gosh, that must be why israel is so popular all over the world.

But it is the only sword Hamas has left, what else can they do? Roll over and die?

no, they could NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH. they could TAKE THE ANTISEMITISM OUT OF THE SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS. they could follow the lead of abu mazen and the fatah leadership. it is a totally false dichotomy to suggest that hamas have a choice between "rockets and death". they could, dare i say it, become realistic about the fact that israel isn't going to disappear and they're not going to liberate tel aviv.

There are Jews more outspoken on this issue than I ever could be.

i am glad that you are able to recognise this.

Jews that are bright enough to see that the policy is set far across the Atlantic and not by what ever useless rag-bag coalition Israel calls a government.

certainly you and i agree that olmert has proven a broken reed - but neither do the americans have a veto, let alone total control over the israeli government. if you think otherwise, then you really, really, really don't understand how they think.

As long as you and people everywhere are hoodwinked into the idea that Hamas has to stop for a real peace process to begin then the big corporate government puppetmasters in the US are delighted. Mission accomplished.

to be honest, i'm not that interested in your conspiracy theories. hamas has to stop thinking it can "win" and start thinking about making a deal so that the inhabitants of gaza can get back to work and to daily life - which will involve trade with israel and a lot of other economic stuff, not military parades, child hate-indoctrination and meaningless gesture politics.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

This wasn't a suicide attack - I think he just snapped?

i don't think we really know at this stage. i think it's possible - i'm not terribly surprised, either. unfortunately it is unlikely to have anything but bad effects.

I am not hearing any outcry BB. Hmmm de ja vue. I really hope you can provide something to show I have simply failed to read/hear/see about the international outcry just to bring some hope to me.

harrumph - in fact, i'm certainly not seeing enough yet for my liking, but type "vilnai outcry holocaust" into google and you'll get plenty of hits, albeit mostly from the blogosphere - and clearly it's going to be a feature of anti-israel propaganda for some time to come. of course, i'm not going to underestimate just how stupid the israelis can be sometimes... i don't get it, anyway. but this is the best i can do so far: criticism from brian klug, one of the leading uk jewish critics of israeli policy:

Comment is free: A catastrophic turn of phrase
i wish it was better. here's some more explanatory stuff:
The Jewish Chronicle

Well they could start by stopping this:

Government cautions Israel on illegal settlements | UK | Reuters

From the article: Israel announced in February it intended to build 1,100 new homes in East Jerusalem, which Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war and annexed unilaterally in a move that is not recognised internationally.

oh, for feck's sake, when are they going to fecking well wise up, those fools? ARGH.

I have to admit I totally fail to comprehend the Israeli government on this issue of land theft and building settlements on it. It is like pouring petrol on a fire so WHY do they keep doing it?

there are quite a lot of organisations dedicated to stopping this sort of thing, including "yesh gvul" and "rabbis for human rights", but still it goes on. it makes me tear my hair out over this stupidity and waste. but unfortunately, that's the "oom schmoom" mentality in practice.

The same way we did with the IRA. It took us decades to learn that fighting achieved nothing but bodies, we had to negotiate.

well, i think that we've achieved this with the palestinian equivalent of sinn fein - unfortunately hamas are more of the equivalent of the CIRA - and they're religiously, not politically motivated, which i don't think you could have said in the same way of the IRA. incidentally, i just got back from belfast. it was eye-opening and an example to follow. what i did however note with displeasure was a new republican attempt to rebrand their ideology in terms of "colonialist settlers vs indigenous peoples" and try and fly the flag for the australian aboriginals as well as for the palestinians. of course, i would certainly oppose any attempt to characterise jews as non-indigenous to israel, but sadly this is yet another development in this sorry history.

This in my view is the way forward - another missed opportunity over bloody land.

i agree - it's a start, but who's saying so now?

It stops them feeling impotent in the face of overwhelming military odds.

unfortunately, it's an illusion, just the way that it is an illusion of the israelis that if they hit hamas hard enough they'll lie down - they won't. i am tired of waiting for these imbeciles to realise they are at a stalemate.

so I ask you what Palestine should do. There is not a single year that the US has not supplied masses of weapons to Israel, including during the 20 month ceasefire. So why is it ok for Israel to arm itself to the teeth with US weapons during a ceasefire but not ok for the Palestinians to try to do the same?

because they can't outfight the israelis - all this will lead to is an arms race and one which they can't actually win. if you want to know what i think they should do - i think change the school curriculum for a start, stop the death cult of martyrdom, change their political language - and, moreover declare independence. they should also explicitly recognise jewish links and claims to the land and jerusalem in particular (this doesn't mean they have to relinquish their own) and ask arab states for the compensation that otherwise be due to the jews of arab lands who were made refugees after 1948, the same time as the palestinian refugee problem began. if they really wanted to scare the shite out of the israelis, they could begin a campaign of gandhian satyagraha, in which they would be joined by israeli arabs. unfortunately they are too keen on machismo and posing with guns and rockets for that, but the israelis quite simply don't have an answer for it.

Be fair BB Israel have broken ceasefires too

yes, i know, i'm just talking about since the disengagement, when hamas had an opportunity for calm and quiet, which they squandered.

Yes Palestinians target civilians and it is wrong, wrong, wrong but so do Israel and it is wrong, wrong, wrong. The only difference is one side admit it.

yes, i dare say we could argue numbers, but that would also be pretty much wrong, wrong, wrong. i would say the difference is rather that one side celebrates when it kills the other side's civilians and the other side doesn't - and also deals with a free press, criticism and political opposition into the bargain. does it strike you as at all significant that much of the criticism of israel stems from the fact that people can find stuff out because it's an open society, whereas in terms of palestinian society that opposition and dissent is ruthlessly crushed - if you don't believe me, look up all the palestinian journalists that are persecuted for not being patriotic enough.

Am very surprised at you here BB. What was not sensible or safe? She was wearing a flourescent jacket, she stood on a mound so the driver could clearly see her and she had a megaphone so he could hear her.

she was in a war zone. that means she had to be prepared to take the risks - i am *not* excusing what happened but neither can i see precisely why the israelis should make it easy for the so-called "international solidarity movement" to gain political capital to be used for propaganda against them. you cannot protest in a war zone in a risk-free way - that is my point, like i said, gaza is not a gap year scheme.

we can also see video's of young Israeli children throwing rocks and shouting offensive abuse at Muslim Arabs - they have to learn this hatred somewhere surely? My guess is at home and in school and in the streets but still they learn it.

i agree - and it's disgusting and i oppose it wherever i can. that is part of the job of a dialogue activist like myself. you cannot expect these people to talk to the opposition, so people like myself have to be the awkward squad. and believe me, we have our work cut out.

But what about the Palestinian peoples human rights? Where are their human rights when their land is divided up by European countries, their homes are forceably taken, bulldozed and land they own is given to Israelis to live on?

you can't blame the israelis for the sykes-picot agreement, sally. and, despite the numerous injustices perpetrated by israel against the palestinians, the fact remains that not once, not twice, but three or four times the arabs, with the active participation of the palestinian arabs decided to declare war on israel; '48, '56, '67 and '73. they lost every time despite having all the military advantages - israel was not "given" the west bank and gaza (and sinai) it conquered them in a war. when they were offered a fair deal by egypt, land for peace, they TOOK IT. they disengaged, they gave up *oil wells* and they evacuated their people. all things considered i would say it's only truly gone to hell and gone since rabin was assassinated and the oslo accords fell apart.

Jews didn't like being thrown out of their homes and herded into ghettos, economically shut off, their businesses shut down, put into what were effectively open prisons, where basic supplies were controlled and withheld to control the people, where movement was totally restricted, etc - so why are they now doing exactly this to the civilian population of Gaza???

yet there were no jewish suicide bombers, were there? there were no jews opening fire in german schools. there were no jews firing rockets into german territory. there was no german disengagement. there was no chance to live in peace, even as enemies. they wanted our EXTERMINATION. and that is a pretty big bloody difference in my book.

Perhaps we could all agree that the term holocaust refers to 'a burnt offering, destruction by fire or mass destruction of human life'? This would mean that the "holocaust" began when the mass killing of Jews began. That is not to try to dismiss the suffering of people prior to the killing but may make these discussions easier to navigate?

perhaps we should just not use the word at all - the same goes for the israelis. there are plenty of other unpleasant terms like "ethnic cleansing" and "crimes against humanity" that will no doubt remain in circulation. personally, i would refrain from using inflammatory, emotive language altogether, but that's just with my "solution" hat on. i'd do what they did in northern ireland and pack the buggers off to a conflict resolution camp in norway.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

well, if he says they have "no other option", he is not only biased, but thick as well. so what if he works for the UN?

The point was that you implied my views a naive student union hall ignorance unsupported by any credible commentator. When I provide one example you dismiss him and divert to Libya and its human rights record, which is far better than that of either the US or Israel. But hey throw in the name Libya in the hope that the general ignorance about that state, and its false pariah status, will divert away from an "independent" UN assessment.

so now the ADL (a group i strongly disapprove of, incidentally) are a subsidiary of mossad? this is right up there with your characterisation of myself as a supporter of ethnic cleansing! mossad is an intelligence agency. are there any intelligence agencies you *approve* of? perhaps you think national security should be run by shami chakrabarti, lord longford and the guardian?

The ADL predates Mossad and many of its former staff went to join Mossad. It remains a key arm of Mossad in the intelligence gathering field.
I do wish you would stop trying to imply that I consider you personally a "supporter of ethnic cleansing" . I have never done this and nor would I. I believe you believe in peace. I wish you would afford me the same courtesy.
I do not believe that any intelligence agency should hold more power than its government master, that its agents should get away with operating outside the laws of the land in which it is accountable or operates in. Mossad is beholden only unto itself and routinely ignores international conventions. It is an arm of strategic meddling toward the ends of the US based corporate Gods who's businesses make billions in profit from death and instability. It is world renowned as the master of dirty tricks.

the fact that you think one can make "tongue in cheek" comparisons of the israelis to the nazis reveals your ignorance both of the nazis and just how they are viewed by jews, especially in israel - this is a country where even playing the music of wagner can cause a serious incident. my father-in-law was in auschwitz, tao. i'm all too familiar with the mechanics and facts of the holocaust - and if you think that i am likely to find your sort of pathetic moral relativism on this subject amusing then you can think again.

Again here I am appalled that you chose to redefine what I said. The tongue in cheek reference was, as you are fully aware, in reference to you being a member of Mossad, not to any parallels that can be drawn between Israel and the Nazi's. This constant need of yours to try and recontextualise my words is getting irritating and so common that either you are not actually bothering to read what I say, and so are misunderstanding, or it is a deliberate effort to paint me as radical. I sincerely hope it is the former.

that is such total rubbish. they haven't TRIED anything else. they're NOT INTERESTED. it is only because gullible fools keep making excuses for them that they continue to treat the deaths of their own people as PR fodder.

You are talking about Israel there I think!!

gosh, that must be why israel is so popular all over the world.

Israel makes no effort to be popular. It does, with the help of a corporate owned global media structure, do a fine job of playing down its atrocities.

no, they could NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH. they could TAKE THE ANTISEMITISM OUT OF THE SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS. they could follow the lead of abu mazen and the fatah leadership. it is a totally false dichotomy to suggest that hamas have a choice between "rockets and death". they could, dare i say it, become realistic about the fact that israel isn't going to disappear and they're not going to liberate tel aviv.

Hamas was democraticly voted the Government of the palestinians and made many efforts to negotiate. Israel and the US continue to consider them a terrorist organisation and refuse to negotiate, despite numerous offers from Hamas. I do wish you would stop trying to always twist the truth round on itself.

certainly you and i agree that olmert has proven a broken reed - but neither do the americans have a veto, let alone total control over the israeli government. if you think otherwise, then you really, really, really don't understand how they think.

Of course I dont

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

BBC NEWS 13/3/08 :

"On Wednesday, the Palestinian militant group Hamas set out its conditions for a truce, calling for an end to Israeli military operations in Gaza and the re-opening of its borders, in return for halting rocket attacks."

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

The point was that you implied my views a naive student union hall ignorance unsupported by any credible commentator.

he's not credible if he thinks that hamas have no other choice but rockets. that is a self-evidently ridiculous statement. but what can you expect from the UN, the premier international forum for israel-bashing?

Libya and its human rights record, which is far better than that of either the US or Israel.

ROFLMAO, as they say... that's right, you think libya is great on human rights!

"Over the past three decades, Libya’s human rights record has been appalling."

according to human rights watch, that is....

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/01/17/libya4708.htm

"“Libya’s election poses a real test for the commission,” said Joanna Weschler, U.N. representative of Human Rights Watch. “Repressive governments must not be allowed to hijack the U.N. human rights system.”"

perhaps we can dispense with this particular red herring now?

I believe you believe in peace. I wish you would afford me the same courtesy.

i believe you believe in peace. i just don't believe you believe in israeli citizens' right to legitimate self-defence.

Mossad is beholden only unto itself and routinely ignores international conventions. It is an arm of strategic meddling toward the ends of the US based corporate Gods who's businesses make billions in profit from death and instability. It is world renowned as the master of dirty tricks.

so, mossad is worse than the cia, the fsb, m16 and the various mukhabaratoun? show me an intelligence agency that doesn't do exactly the same! and, moreover, that it works for US corporates, not the israeli government? just when i think you're starting to make sense, again with the paranoid conspiracy theories.

The tongue in cheek reference was, as you are fully aware, in reference to you being a member of Mossad, not to any parallels that can be drawn between Israel and the Nazi's.

i wasn't aware of this. clearly i was mistaken, so i apologise. all i can say is wasn't at *all* obvious that it was tongue in cheek at the time!

Israel makes no effort to be popular. It does, with the help of a corporate owned global media structure, do a fine job of playing down its atrocities.

why would it bother doing this if not to reduce unpopularity? what would be the point of something like memri? what would be the point of letting the foreign press operate? what would be the point in government and defence personnel appearing on al-jazeera? but no, you're giving me, essentially, "the jews control the media", which is straight out of the classical anti-semitic playbook. it just doesn't stack up as an argument, even if i didn't know it was untrue.

Hamas was democratically voted the Government of the palestinians and made many efforts to negotiate.

a position which basically consists of "give us what we want and we'll stop firing until we have better armaments" isn't actually a viable position for negotiation.

"On Wednesday, the Palestinian militant group Hamas set out its conditions for a truce, calling for an end to Israeli military operations in Gaza and the re-opening of its borders, in return for halting rocket attacks."

and what are these conditions, by the way? have they said anywhere? are they *reasonable* conditions? you know, tao, that hamas, the "democratically voted government of the palestinians" support slavery (on islamic grounds, of course), don't you? look at articles 12 and 34 of their charter:

Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas

while we're at it, here are a few other gems:

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement."

"There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."

and did you spot the bit about the *rotary club* being agents of zionism?

"All of them are destructive spying organizations. They also used the money to take over control of the Imperialist states and made them colonize many countries in order to exploit the wealth of those countries and spread their corruption therein. As regards local and world wars, it has come to pass and no one objects, that they stood behind World War I, so as to wipe out the Islamic Caliphate. They collected material gains and took control of many sources of wealth. They obtained the Balfour Declaration and established the League of Nations in order to rule the world by means of that organization. They also stood behind World War II, where they collected immense benefits from trading with war materials and prepared for the establishment of their state. They inspired the establishment of the United Nations and the Security Council to replace the League of Nations, in order to rule the world by their intermediary. There was no war that broke out anywhere without their fingerprints on it."

and the bit about mind-control drugs, too:

All those secret organizations, some which are overt, act for the interests of Zionism and under its directions, strive to demolish societies, to destroy values, to wreck answerableness, to totter virtues and to wipe out Islam. It stands behind the diffusion of drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion.

and guess where all this stuff is from...?

Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion

these are the guys you think the israelis should be negotiating with, are they? are these people *you* would trust?

b'shalom

bananabrain

[CyberRebel]

Terrorism helps nothing, or nobody, and only makes revenge the desire in more peoples hearts.

Like here in the US, if African Americans were to start being terroists, or the Native Americans. Would terrorism help them? Would the US government give into them anymore than the Israeli's give into the Palistinians who do the terroist acts? Useing fear to make people give you what you want can only hurt your own people who do no wrong but are the only ones who are in the front and not hideing behind a terroists mask...

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by CyberRebel

Terrorism helps nothing, or nobody, and only makes revenge the desire in more peoples hearts.

Hence the backlash against the state terrorism perpertrated by the United States and Israel. "Terrorism" only works for those that have the most advanced weaponry.

Originally Posted by CyberRebel

Like here in the US, if African Americans were to start being terroists, or the Native Americans. Would terrorism help them? Would the US government give into them anymore than the Israeli's give into the Palistinians who do the terroist acts? Useing fear to make people give you what you want can only hurt your own people who do no wrong but are the only ones who are in the front and not hideing behind a terroists mask...

Unless you have the superior military power, and an extensive media under your thumb.

Why would African Americans or Native Americans want to be terrorists? Who would benefit from that? Both populations have learned from COINTELPRO operations that the U.S. government will go to extraordinary repressive lengths to quash any armed resistance.

Were the Black Panthers "terrorists"? Was the American Indian Movement? Are resistance movements of Palestinians terrorist organizations by nature, or should they be viewed as responses to an enemy that seems to know no language except the force of arms? Of course they cannot win on the battlefield. A straight fight is laughable and would be completely shredded by the superior firepower of the U.S.-Israeli coalition, and when these resisters blow themselves and others up out of desperation and existential angst, they are demonized.

What can any person, forcibly removed from their own land, be they African American, Native American, Palestinian, or Iraqi, do against the superior military power of the United States (and its puppet, Israel)? Use free speech? Redress grievances? Ha!! Yet those are the kinds of tactics that are simultaneously encouraged and ignored.

I am not advocating violence or so-called "terrorism." I am proposing a different perspective on the issue. I am asking a question: "If people are systematically denied their rights and freedoms, and are sidelined in any meaningful political process, why are we surprised when they resort to violence?" After all, colonization itself is a violent and forceful process, whether subtle and seemingly indirect, or more direct: forced removal from home into slavery, forced fencing-in on reservations, forced expulsion from home through bulldozing, bombing, destruction.

When are we going to stop kidding ourselves about being civilized?

[Tao_Equus]

BB,

Well my last post to you I expressed my disdain that you continue to attempt to portray my opinions as radical and, in recognition of you intellect displayed on other threads, sincerely hoped that this would temper that desire. Clearly I was wrong.

Just so you can be clear on this I do not pull my information from any Neo-Nazi or Anti-Zionist nor more generalised conspiracy theory sites. What I state is my own words and interpretations of the facts gathered from mainstream and credible sources over the course of my life. I do not require the spurious claims of any group promoting their own narrow agenda to see the facts. All I have to do is appraise historical facts well reported in the media outlets and join the dots. Not to create some picture of a radical demon but to get some idea of who is driving and where.

I see your last post here as deliberately counter to any meaningful dialogue between us. Your use of cut and pastes from radical sites you imply to be the kind of views I personally hold. Your efforts to rubbish my opinions by throwing muck at me in the hope that some of it sticks is frankly shameful and you have lost a lot of the high regard I once held for you.

But it does serve a purpose. It illustrates that even someone with your intellectual abilities cannot justify the unjustifiable. Instead you have to descend into vitriol and a concerted effort at painting me as a crazy conspiracy theorist. I believe you have won my argument for me.

As for Libya, its human rights record is not great but in sheer numbers it pales into the shadow of either the US or Israel. Thats why I stated its pariah status is unfounded. Unlike the US or Israel its No.1 in annual spending is not for weapons to terrorise innocent people, but building and agricultural projects to benefit its people. So you continue to roll on the floor laughing with your head firmly up your own ignorance.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by CyberRebel

and not hideing behind a terroists mask...

It is not only the terrorists that hide behind masks. And in my opinion the veil of ignorance to be found in the US to be far more deadly than the veil of any suicide bomber.

Tao

[wil]

It has become apparent to me over the years that a mistake was made back in the forties with the partitionment of this land.

Someday that mistake will have to be corrected, probably by a few other mistakes before we get it right.

It could be time to move the UN, and create an international state.