Why is faith different?

[Snoopy]

well, yes, there is consistency as long as you're talking about the same school of dentistry (and freedom of speech within that school )

s.

[bob x]

Bob.... Bob, Bob, Bob.... Bob.... You're saying you heard a voice?

No, a feeling rather.

Why is it, that there are two gay men hugging each other at the top of this thread?

I don't know, they don't appear for me. They must just want a threesome with you!

What exactly were you trying to prove, bob x?

To see if God actually shows Himself in such a way.

Besides, Elijah didn't perform this act of faith to impress himself or prove God to himself

but to "prove God" to others. And yet my feeling remains, that such public showings do not occur either.

And if you read the scriptures, you ought to know that even with miracles clearly given, many still choose not to believe.

You are taking it for granted that the scriptural stories are true, which is not something I take for granted, or even consider particularly likely.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by bob x

"I'll even tell you the details of my experiments and you can repeat them if you wish... or not"
When I was a child of 8, I was impressed by the story of Elijah and the priests of Ba'al, where he asks God to send down fire, which the priests could not do. So I set some paper in the sink (so I could douse it quickly if it really caught fire) and asked God to show me. I really more than half believed it was going to happen. I did not, of course, see a miraculous fire, but instead felt, more than heard, a distinct revelation, "It doesn't work that way!" which stuck with me for the rest of my life.

Awesome. Which is more impressive, to light a fire or to ask God a question and hear the answer? Anyone can light a fire.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I'd be interested in know the results of your experiments myself, cyperpi, if you still wish to indulge.

The results... you want me to witness? Did you hear the earthquake story? It is the simplest to tell without sharing everything personal. You might have to meet me to learn some. If I were to call it an experiment, then the experiment is when someone comes knocking with their beliefs that you disagree with, then devise ways to figure out the source of them, often by asking them questions.

A fundamentalist shared with me beliefs that earthquakes were increasing in frequency and that it was a sign that an end was approaching. I asked him for the bible verse and when he came to me to share the bible passage about the earthquake, as we read it there was a short earthquake. That started to open my mind to the possibility that God was not so distant. That occured on Jan 28, 1995, 7:11:23 pm PST, in Seattle, WA. The odds were not astonomical, but neither were they ordinary. I consider the event a correlated event... and I have seen quite a few lately.

[bob x]

And the Grateful Dead were playing in Oregon, and had just struck up "Fire, Fire on the Mountain" when Mt. St. Helens erupted.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by bob x

And the Grateful Dead were playing in Oregon, and had just struck up "Fire, Fire on the Mountain" when Mt. St. Helens erupted.

A skeptic? But if you were there feeling the ground shaking as you read the verse, would you not reflect? It was hard to dismiss. I already believed God existed for an intellectual reason and while that helped open my eyes to the possibility that he was actually present, it wasn't until later that I took to a pursuit.

I will give you another experiment then. I have committed adultery with sex outside of marriage. When I did admit to myself why that was so wrong by comparing actions with personal belief, I felt remorse and decided to give my wife the due opportunity for corrective action. I became convinced that I needed to confess it simply because it was a truth that I had buried. That was not easy, but I was relieved that she did forgive me. The next day, within a single day, we received three important phone calls for jobs. Whereas in the prior three or more months we had none. So the experiment is: if you have any sins whatsoever in your history, any lies, buried truths, or even just ill thoughts, then confess them. Do whatever it takes to clear them and to earn forgiveness by seeking change. It is a method to change but I was personally surprised to see the real feedback too. Keep the eyes open and if someone wants the proof, then I believe proof is available to them. The experiment is: be totally honest with others as you wish God to be totally honest with you.

I recently had someone who I was trying to convince of the importance of confession to help clear his record. He has a record and is open about it with me, but that does not buy him as much as being honest to the people that he sinned against and earning their forgiveness. Yet he outrightly was rejecting that as a path for fear of retribution. He said seriously that he believed that the 'christian god' automatically forgives him. So I asked him if someone sinned against him if he would automatically forgive them. He said yes, he forgives everyone. Then I asked him if he would still trust or place faith in the person, and he said no. So I said then you have NOT really forgiven them. I asked if he expected God to trust or place faith in him then? This person was angry that I was telling him what God does or does not do, so I said No, but that you are telling me what you think God is by the way that you treat people. Now, what if someone comes to you and confesses... will you trust them or place faith in them any more? He thought about it and said yes. So I asked will you be more thankful that they confessed their wrongdoing to you, and that they are seeking your forgiveness? He said yes... so, there is the importance of confession. If you want to improve the relationship then there is a tool. Earn God's faith. By rejecting confession I feel that a person is NOT placing faith in God. If you seek in your mind a relationship with God, and the past sins come to mind, then seek resolution to them. Clear them with a real commitment to change. I was not even expecting external feedback at the time, but upon receiving it I had some physical evidence that a portion of every day is not necessarily written by people.

Ok, another experiment: Pray for other people and ask other people to pray for you. Not just in a time of need, but there was an extended family member, Andrew, high school age who was nailed by a vehicle at over 40 mph just last St. Andrews day. He was hit in the head by the side mirror of a vehicle, and then smacked down on the pavement. There was blood coming from his brain and ear. He was in a comma and received open cranial surgery I think to relieve the pressure on his brain and stop some bleeding. His family sent out an appeal for prayer and I was impressed by his dad's commitment to family. I certainly did not think Andrew deserved this so my distant prayer was for a full recovery within one week. In one week he was out of the comma and released from ICU. In exactly another week they released him from the hospital and into physical therapy. In exactly another week they released him from there and he walked home. So in 21 days he walked home and he was then home for Christmas. It did not turn out exactly as I had personally asked, but it was considered an amazing recovery.

While I don't consider that as proof, it was an experiment. There are other more direct avenues, but ask yourself what really constitutes a proof? A hallucination? You would run the risk of doubting yourself, but as you try gravity every day you come to know gravity. Maybe a handful of de-thorned roses every day complete with kisses and an "I love you" in your ear? Does anyone here bother to give God the "I love you" every day? Are you able to receive rebuke? I did not realize that real feedback was available, and I have gained an appreciation for both praise and for rebuke... both are a portion of my proof. Seek your own proof, because I know that I can not prove for anyone what nobody but God could prove for me.

[bob x]

the Grateful Dead were playing in Oregon, and had just struck up "Fire, Fire on the Mountain" when Mt. St. Helens erupted.
A skeptic?

Not at all. I wasn't there for that particular concert, but was in the Rubber Bowl in Akron, Ohio on a drizzly day when they decided to play "Roll Away, Roll Away the Dew" and all the clouds parted and it turned sunny.
The world is full of inexplicable marvels and synchronicities. No particular brand of spirituality has a corner on them.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by bob x

Not at all. I wasn't there for that particular concert, but was in the Rubber Bowl in Akron, Ohio on a drizzly day when they decided to play "Roll Away, Roll Away the Dew" and all the clouds parted and it turned sunny.
The world is full of inexplicable marvels and synchronicities. No particular brand of spirituality has a corner on them.

Including math and science? Or is that somehow regarded as being different.

[bob x]

I am not sure I understand what your question is.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by bob x

I am not sure I understand what your question is.

I was just playing off the title, "Why is faith different?" Well, why is math and science different? Like you said the world is full of inexplicable marvels and synchronicities and no particular brand of spirituality has a corner on them. Yet the adherants of math and science claim to explain the synchronicities, and someday the inexplicable marvels. As an engineer though I see that you are correct... math and science does not, and might never, have a corner on the synchronicities or inexplicable marvels.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I was just playing off the title, "Why is faith different?" Well, why is math and science different? Like you said the world is full of inexplicable marvels and synchronicities and no particular brand of spirituality has a corner on them. Yet the adherants of math and science claim to explain the synchronicities, and someday the inexplicable marvels. As an engineer though I see that you are correct... math and science does not, and might never, have a corner on the synchronicities or inexplicable marvels.

The Maths and Science is repeatable at any time and by anybody. Is the ground shaking as you read this?

Tao

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

The Maths and Science is repeatable at any time and by anybody.

I think a relationship with God is repeatable by anybody.
Whereas you have assured me that you might have a secret closet where gravity has not been tested, and does not exist. So, Math and Science is not repeatable until we test the theories in your closet and everywhere. You contradict your own prior statements Tao.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I think a relationship with God is repeatable by anybody.
Whereas you have assured me that you might have a secret closet where gravity has not been tested, and does not exist. So, Math and Science is not repeatable until we test the theories in your closet and everywhere. You contradict your own prior statements Tao.

Do I? Well there is no surprise there as i find a lot of contradictions in science. But they are still fractional compared to the hypocrisy of your average Christian.
I already stated a Bose-Einstein condensate can defy gravity by flowing uphill. It can also slow a photon from lightspeed down to 5 meters per second, yet it will return to lightspeed as soon as it is through. What does your old tome say to explain that...or Thomas Aquinas for that matter. And what does it say about conservation of energy / thermodynamics?

tao

[cyberpi]

That is an interesting religion you express Tao and I can relate because I have studied modern physics in college and in my personal time, and also because I believe that you have never really performed the experiment. Am I right? From you, it is a religion.

Here is another experiment that I found to be rewarding in ways that I had never anticipated. Seek out someone who really needs help and who can never repay you, and devise methods to personally help them in ways that they never anticipated or asked for. Then keep the eyes peeled because someone might actually find you and help you in ways that you never anticipated. I tell you... I have seen some of the most awe inspiring things with some sort of law there and it does appear to be something very worth experimenting with. I don't speak as a hypocrite either, rather someone who is onto something worth exploring.

I would say though that it is wise to not develop expectations, especially when trying to help others in ways that they do not expect. I was thinking today that a person really has to be patient. I learned from information theory that it was the surprise that actually conveys the greatest information to a person, and so I have come to enjoy surprises. But a surprise can be disappointing to a person who has developed their own expectations. Equally a person in low or needy places will have expectations which you probably don't wish to serve either. I confess though that once a law or attribute like gravity is discovered, I tend to wish to explore it further and this one does appear to be very repeatable and worth further study.

[bob x]

the adherants of math and science claim to explain the synchronicities, and someday the inexplicable marvels.

??? No they don't.