Why do you think I am oppressed?

[Postmaster]

Maybe you feel as strong about western values as a conservative Muslim point of view Francis? Nothing but different sides of the same coin. Who is going to decide which is the right way? Many Muslim women choose to wear the veil, many don't and many are not bothered. Either way I respect any peoples way of life, I don't think I’m in a position to approve or disapprove of it because taking sides amounts to hate. If something is wrong, I like to think it eliminates naturally.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Francis king

lol... we are not oppressed, we openly accept that being forced by society to cover ourselves lest we inspire men to lustful thoughts is the right thing to do... honestly...

as a woman I find it disgraceful that women would readily succumb to a cultural convention which means that they are, by design, such sinful objects. What is so bad about not covering your head? What is so bad about exposing your shoulders, or your legs? Can men not control their lust? Can we not make men who cannot control their lust wear very dark sunglasses instead? Why not? Because men make the rules in Arabic societies, and women are just trophy housewives who must be good in bed while pretending to be virgins in the town square. Do muslim women tidy their bikini lines, tint their hair, pluck their eyebrows? Yes, they do, you can see their painted toenails peeping out from under their skirts. So, they are just as concerned about their appearances and fashion and nice knickers as is every other woman on the planet. I have been insulted now on a few occasions by muslim men in my area who think that a woman who opens the top button of her blouse is a whore, and I don't like it, and I won't stand for it. By objectifying women we place them in a weaker and inferior position within society. Women are not there just to make babies and sit at home looking pretty for men. In truth, you should be able to walk down the street naked and be unmolested. In reality, we are still stuck in some rinky dink world, where conventional lies and the myth of decency dictate behaviour, were women who have sex are promiscuous and were men can do as they please.

before the 1920's in the west women we considered the chattel, or property of men. They could not vote, their job prospects were limited, they were expected to get married and have children and be housewives. Very few women had careers, but they all still had dreams, ideals and expectations. Women were considered to be the weaker sex, not as intelligent, not as strong, not as capable. In the last 80-100 years women have come a long way, and I do not want to retreat to the dark ages and not be able to leave the house in a short sleeved blouse without a chaperone. Women in my country still do not get equal pay in line with men. Women are still more likely to be the unpaid carers and servants of their husbands and parents even though we have made many advances. I have male friends, and I have female friends. We mix. Both the women and the men can usually be trusted to not rip each others clothes off and start shagging just becuase they are together, because women are not considered to be the sole playthings of men anymore. If a man or a woman fancies you, wants to have sex with you, you play the game. They ask, in some way, for more contact, and you decide whether or not to give them any. If you do not want to, they are supposed to respect that choice, whether you are in a veil or in a bikini.

...when we were young adults we would all go out clubbing together, and then we would all get into a big bed, and sleep. We did not want to pounce on each other, we were friends, and we loved each other, we were not a polyamorous bunch of debauched westerners... I hug my male friends, and we treat each other very well. If I inflame their passions then I would expect them to have self control and respect for me, as I do them. Thats called civilisation. It's called progress. It's called mutual respect. My perception of the muslim world is that those same values I and my friends hold dear do not exist, and false modesty is used as a means of control and suppression of women.

I think yes, you are oppressed, and you and all the other headscarfed women are colluding in your own oppression. You can all pretend you like walking round in a sheet when its 90 degrees and I'm in my shorts, but I'm not buying it...

cheerio...

And what about the fact that it is the woman, (usually the older, more wrinkled, less pretty than they were ones), that are apt to be the first ones to call for a stoning? Is there not some adage that behind every successful man is a woman? I posit that there is indeed...and usually she not only pulls every string but is one mean mother too. I get a bit resentful that some women can only see far enough to blame men. Its far from true that only men are to blame and it is quite blatantly sexist.
That said I did enjoy your post

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Francis king

lol... we are not oppressed, we openly accept that being forced by society to cover ourselves lest we inspire men to lustful thoughts is the right thing to do... honestly...

Francis, as I have opened myself to the possibility of ridicule and hatred in order to further interfaith discussion (by allowing people to ask me questions and make their comments) I really could do without the sarcasm please.

Originally Posted by Francis king

as a woman I find it disgraceful that women would readily succumb to a cultural convention which means that they are, by design, such sinful objects.

Such sinful objects? Never heard this one before. I do not wear hijab because I am a sinful object, I wear it so that I will be recognised as a Muslim, respected as a woman and not thought of as a 'play thing' for men. How does that make me a sinful object? If I was a high court judge wearing a mini skirt, with cleavage and high heels would I be respected or taken seriously? What if I was a lawyer, a doctor, a university professor? Hardly think so.

I think perhaps you are under the usual misconception that only Muslim women are to dress and bahave modestly? Muslim men are also required to "lower their gaze", they have rules about dress and what cannot be worn or shown of the body.

As for cultural convention, I am a western woman brought up in europe and certainly under no 'cultural convention'. G-d and the Prophet Mohammad clearly state how I should behave and dress. I do not wear hijab to please my husband or society, I wear it to please Allah and Him alone. It is my choice and I choose how to dress, I choose to cover my hair but I choose not to cover my face.

Originally Posted by Francis king

What is so bad about not covering your head? What is so bad about exposing your shoulders, or your legs?

Absolutely nothing if you are not a Muslim. There is only a requirement that Muslims dress this way and this requirement comes from Allah not from men.

Originally Posted by Francis king

Can men not control their lust? Can we not make men who cannot control their lust wear very dark sunglasses instead.

Perhaps you are unaware that Muslims, both men and women, must remain virgins until they marry. Would it therefore be kind or decent to taunt my unmarried brothers by showing them something they cannot have? This is one of the many ways that Muslims respect each other, we try to behave and dress so as not to offend or excite each other.

Originally Posted by Francis king

Because men make the rules in Arabic societies, and women are just trophy housewives who must be good in bed while pretending to be virgins in the town square.

Since when did I have to pretend to be a virgin in the town square? Islam is very open about what goes on between a man and wife (so much so I have found myself red faced on a number of occasions). The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) instructed men that once they are satisfied they must not leave the bed until their wife is also satisfied. Does this not show the respect Islam affords to women? How does that make me a trophy housewife?

Sorry but this shows such misunderstanding. You must try to look at Islam itself, the Quran, the teachings of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) to see what Islam is, the respect and choices Muslim women are given, not the behaviour of a small group of Arab Muslims. There are 1.5 billion Muslims (and rising daily) in every part of the world and only a small percentage of women live under such extreme fundamentalist conditions. I live in the Middle East and I do not feel oppressed in any way (one would think as a western woman going to live there I would notice it more than the women born there). That said I would never make the choice to live in Saudi because the women there are oppressed by men under the banner of Islam but NOT by Islam itself.

Originally Posted by Francis king

Do muslim women tidy their bikini lines, tint their hair, pluck their eyebrows? Yes, they do, you can see their painted toenails peeping out from under their skirts. So, they are just as concerned about their appearances and fashion and nice knickers as is every other woman on the planet.

I have also taken to the tradition of removing all hair from my face (except eyebrows) and arms. I spend hours shopping for clothes and make up with my female friends. Of course I am just as concerned about my appearance as every other woman on the planet and like western women I do it because it makes me feel good, not just to please my husband.

Originally Posted by Francis king

I have been insulted now on a few occasions by muslim men in my area who think that a woman who opens the top button of her blouse is a whore, and I don't like it, and I won't stand for it.

I too would not stand for it, if you were a guest in my town in Egypt and a Muslim man said something like this to you, you would see how 'timid' Muslim women are (women hitting men in the street with shoes is quite normal following any insult to a woman).

If this happens again, insh'allah it won't, but if it does please don't get angry. Instead tell them that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said "Do not search for faults in each other nor yearn after that which others possess, nor envy, nor entertain malice, or indifference; and be the servants of G-d". You can also point out to them that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) made peace treaties with people of other religions and they all lived, according to their own ways, peacefully together (they were not allowed to say the women of other religions should dress as Muslim women).

They are speaking from ignorance and malice and for that I apologise to you, so by using the words and examples of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), instead of anger, you can make them feel and look stupid and ashamed - as well they should.

Originally Posted by Francis king

By objectifying women we place them in a weaker and inferior position within society. Women are not there just to make babies and sit at home looking pretty for men. In truth, you should be able to walk down the street naked and be unmolested. In reality, we are still stuck in some rinky dink world, where conventional lies and the myth of decency dictate behaviour, were women who have sex are promiscuous and were men can do as they please.

See my comment above about Muslim men having the same restrictions upon them as the women. Do all behave as they should? Of course not but please do not 'blame' Islam for the faults of some misguided and sinful men (and indeed women).

I can give you many examples of Muslim women in very prominent positions in Muslim societies, my doctor and lawyer are both women (I chose them because they are women). The Quran is packed full of verses that say "the believeing men and the believeing women" - this is in relation to education, work, dress, behaviour, etc. Men are not singled out in Islam as better than women, just as different with different responsibilities.

May I give one very honest and true example from my personal experience. When I first married, my husband went to see the local Sheikh (in Egypt) to ask about his duties as a husband. He was told that he should employ a woman to cook and clean for me and that if he couldnt afford to do this then he should perform these duties himself. This is the teaching of Islam, the respect offered to women but I choose to look after the home myself because I love my husband and I dont want a stranger doing this work for me. The problems occur when men want power and comfort for themselves, (as they have historically wanted in all societies) and they twist our religion to suit their desires.

Originally Posted by Francis king

In the last 80-100 years women have come a long way, and I do not want to retreat to the dark ages and not be able to leave the house in a short sleeved blouse without a chaperone.

I would not want any women to go back to the dark ages, I do feel that womens lib has gone a bit over the top in some areas but this is my personal opinion and not one I would thrust onto others. That said, I choose to wear hijab and don't want to go back to my days of short skirts and cleavage. I respect your choice of dress and only ask that you respect my choice of dress without labelling me oppressed.

Originally Posted by Francis king

If a man or a woman fancies you, wants to have sex with you, you play the game. They ask, in some way, for more contact, and you decide whether or not to give them any. If you do not want to, they are supposed to respect that choice, whether you are in a veil or in a bikini.

And do they always respect that choice?

The game that you refer to is exactly what we try to avoid because we are instructed to do so by G-d. It is our belief, we do not say you must believe it or follow it. Look to any of the main religions, marriage is sacred and you should be chaste before marriage. Modesty and faith simply go hand in hand and I am not prepared to sin against G-d so that I am not to so hot when I walk down the street. It is all a matter of belief and choice.

Originally Posted by Francis king

If I inflame their passions then I would expect them to have self control and respect for me, as I do them. Thats called civilisation. It's called progress. It's called mutual respect.

Muslims feel that it is more mutually respectful to not behave in such a manner that would inflame their passion in the first place. Then there is no need to test the boundaries of a persons self control. Same coin, different sides.

Originally Posted by Francis king

My perception of the muslim world is that those same values I and my friends hold dear do not exist, and false modesty is used as a means of control and suppression of women.

I sincerely hope that some of my comments above have made you see Islam in a slightly different light.

Originally Posted by Francis king

I think yes, you are oppressed, and you and all the other headscarfed women are colluding in your own oppression. You can all pretend you like walking round in a sheet when its 90 degrees and I'm in my shorts, but I'm not buying it...

I too have spoken to a few Muslim women who hold much more fundamentalist beliefs of Islam and the word that springs to my mind is 'brainwashed'. However, it is their choice to hold their views and I must respect that. Isn't freedom of speech and thought a western concept?

Please try to understand I do not like walking around in hijab during the summer (remember I am white skinned and live in a desert) it is uncomfortable for me but I do it to submit to G-d. It is the submission to G-d that pleases me not the dress itself. I do it for reasons of faith alone, not because of men or to show other people what a good Muslim I am. G-d has instructed Muslims to be modest and I take the word of G-d over anything in this world.

salaam

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

If I was a high court judge wearing a mini skirt, with cleavage and high heels would I be respected or taken seriously?

You could sentence and punish me.

[Francis king]

thank you, muslimwoman, for ur erudite reply, and I am glad that I did not offend u too greatly...

salaam

[wil]

Open communication is AWESOME...

thank you all for broaching the subject and discussing current understandings...

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Francis king

thank you, muslimwoman, for ur erudite reply, and I am glad that I did not offend u too greatly...

salaam

You are welcome. Erudite? No. From the heart? Yes

Sorry my posts are so long, will try to keep them shorter or I will bore everyone to sleep.

[Vajradhara]

Namatse Muslimwoman,

thank you for the post.

you, individually, may or may not be oppressed. you say you live in Egypt. we read the Egyptian English news and see that the government is preventing certain groups from organizing and metting.. this is oppression. you live in this country, ipso facto, you are in an enviornment where oppression occurs.

however, i think that you mean to be asking why the general Western perception is that Muslim women, as a whole, are oppressed and it is to that which i will direct my reply.

i do not think that Muslim women, as a whole, are oppressed. i do think, and it seems incontrovertible, that there are Muslim women that are oppressed as demonstrated in societies like Saudi Arabia and the now defuct Afghanistan of the Taliban.

i suppose that the reason that these generalized sorts of views are the same reason that Arab socieities have misunderstandings and misconceptions Western nations.. humans will tend to believe those in positions of authority even when they speak on subjects well outside of such authority.

to be perfectly frank with you i think that it has little to do with Islam, though some of the Narrations don't help, and more to do with cultural values and societal mores which lead to twisted interpetations which lead to a belief that Allah sanctions the rules/regulations imposed upon women.

though.. i must say.. to offer that women should wear the hijab to prevent men from lusting is rather missing the point.. it is the men that must be restrined and refined and, clearly, covering oneself does not prevent another from experiencing lust.

i would tend to agree with Francis on this point.. enforced morality is not morality in the slightest. a being demonstrates morality when they are in a situation where moral consequences could arise from action, thought or word.. not in a sterile situation where these moral tests are not present. even that sort of view, however, seems to belie a misunderstanding of the human animal and the biological imperative to procreate.

as for the OP.. i don't know if you are or are not oppressed on a personal level and i would not extrapolate your situation to be applicable to the rest of Muslim women throughout the Muslim lands.

metta,

~v

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namatse Muslimwoman,

thank you for the post.

you, individually, may or may not be oppressed. you say you live in Egypt. we read the Egyptian English news and see that the government is preventing certain groups from organizing and metting.. this is oppression. you live in this country, ipso facto, you are in an enviornment where oppression occurs.

however, i think that you mean to be asking why the general Western perception is that Muslim women, as a whole, are oppressed and it is to that which i will direct my reply.

i do not think that Muslim women, as a whole, are oppressed. i do think, and it seems incontrovertible, that there are Muslim women that are oppressed as demonstrated in societies like Saudi Arabia and the now defuct Afghanistan of the Taliban.

i suppose that the reason that these generalized sorts of views are the same reason that Arab socieities have misunderstandings and misconceptions Western nations.. humans will tend to believe those in positions of authority even when they speak on subjects well outside of such authority.

to be perfectly frank with you i think that it has little to do with Islam, though some of the Narrations don't help, and more to do with cultural values and societal mores which lead to twisted interpetations which lead to a belief that Allah sanctions the rules/regulations imposed upon women.

though.. i must say.. to offer that women should wear the hijab to prevent men from lusting is rather missing the point.. it is the men that must be restrined and refined and, clearly, covering oneself does not prevent another from experiencing lust.

i would tend to agree with Francis on this point.. enforced morality is not morality in the slightest. a being demonstrates morality when they are in a situation where moral consequences could arise from action, thought or word.. not in a sterile situation where these moral tests are not present. even that sort of view, however, seems to belie a misunderstanding of the human animal and the biological imperative to procreate.

as for the OP.. i don't know if you are or are not oppressed on a personal level and i would not extrapolate your situation to be applicable to the rest of Muslim women throughout the Muslim lands.

metta,

~v

as salaam aleykum Vajradhara

Thank you for your enlightened post, it showed thought and an open mind.

I would never say I speak for all Muslim women. Some women, not just Mulsim, are terribly oppressed in this world and shame on the men that do this. I accept fully that Islam began in a time when the oppression of women was the norm and this has in some instances flowed into the religion and remains until this day but hopefully to a lesser degree.

I would also never deny that dreadful deads are done in the name of Islam, including murder and the oppression of women in some areas. My purpose of this thread was to try to seperate out which of these acts are due to Islamic teaching and which are due to the desires of men.

An example would be the videos we now see in egypt recorded on mobile phones, of male and female citizens being humiliated, beaten and sexually abused by policemen in police stations. What has the government done to stop this? Because of the outcry they are takening a couple of policemen to court but they have also banned anyone entering a police station with a mobile phone. Can you imagine living in such fear? Now that is state terrorism but it is not Islam.

This is what I try to speak against, the misconceptions of what is and is not Islam. Anything bad in the middle east is attributed to Islam and this breaks my heart. The true Islam does not teach oppression, in fact quite the opposite and this is the message I try to get across.

Do you really think that by choosing to wear the hijab I cannot get into "a situation where moral consequences could arise from action, thought or word.."? I do not live in prison, I can go out and party all night tonight, in the most outrageous way if I choose to. I don't see it as enforced morality (although I fully accept your point), I see as my choice to 'advertise' my desire to avoid this way of life by the way I dress. Do you see the difference?

Salaam

[Vajradhara]

Namaste and salaam Muslimwoman,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I would never say I speak for all Muslim women.

*nods* it is, in my view, a positive quality to realize that our views are, essentially, our own and do not necessarily represent the views of others. many times in online discussions, it seems, this sort of awareness is not always present.

An example would be the videos we now see in egypt recorded on mobile phones, of male and female citizens being humiliated, beaten and sexually abused by policemen in police stations. What has the government done to stop this? Because of the outcry they are takening a couple of policemen to court but they have also banned anyone entering a police station with a mobile phone. Can you imagine living in such fear? Now that is state terrorism but it is not Islam.

i would agree, fully, with your points. i suppose that what this is an example of is human attachment to power and the grasping and clinging associated with trying to maintain ones power in an everchanging reality.

This is what I try to speak against, the misconceptions of what is and is not Islam. Anything bad in the middle east is attributed to Islam and this breaks my heart. The true Islam does not teach oppression, in fact quite the opposite and this is the message I try to get across.

i would say that you are being a bit overly general here.. it would certainly depend on the sources that one consumes for their news on the views that would be presented. that said, it is certainly true that the vast majority of human beings, throughout the world, have misconceptions about beings of other cultures, religions and social standing.. so i would say that this situation exists on both sides of this discussion.

what often seems to lead to a great deal of misunderstanding, in my view, is trying to understand another culture or religious paradigm through our own tradition or cultural point of view.. very often this leads to some vast misunderstandings and mischaracterizations of entire groups of beings. it is not easy, of course, to set aside ones own point of view to understand another culture or religions point of view, from within their own frame of reference, but it definately seems worthwhile.

Do you really think that by choosing to wear the hijab I cannot get into "a situation where moral consequences could arise from action, thought or word.."?

clearly not; there are plenty of cases where properly attired Muslim women are assaulted and so forth. the idea that wearing the hijab makes a person modest, however, is faulty. modesty is not in what one wears, in my view, it is their behavior that determines if they are modest or not.

I do not live in prison, I can go out and party all night tonight, in the most outrageous way if I choose to. I don't see it as enforced morality (although I fully accept your point), I see as my choice to 'advertise' my desire to avoid this way of life by the way I dress. Do you see the difference?
Salaam

well.. yes and no. i suppose it depends on how you mean it

it is, in a sense, the issue that we deal with on many other levels of our existence.. accepting the outter appearence as being indicative of the inner quality when, in fact, they do not have to be connected in the slightest.

metta,

~v

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum V

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i would say that you are being a bit overly general here.. it would certainly depend on the sources that one consumes for their news on the views that would be presented. that said, it is certainly true that the vast majority of human beings, throughout the world, have misconceptions about beings of other cultures, religions and social standing.. so i would say that this situation exists on both sides of this discussion.

Anyone can read an article about a terrorist act committed in the name of Islam or see on the internet that men are about to stone a woman to death under the banner of sharia law but do these issues actually come from Islam? This is my point, they do not. Murder and suicide are strictly forbidden and the Quran does not contain one verse that even remotely suggests stoning as a punishment. I can of course see why people have their misconceptions but wish people would take the time to find out whether this is Islam, although I do accept that is not as easy as it sounds.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

what often seems to lead to a great deal of misunderstanding, in my view, is trying to understand another culture or religious paradigm through our own tradition or cultural point of view.. very often this leads to some vast misunderstandings and mischaracterizations of entire groups of beings. it is not easy, of course, to set aside ones own point of view to understand another culture or religions point of view, from within their own frame of reference, but it definately seems worthwhile.

You are absolutely correct that the situation exists on both sides. Living in Egypt during the last Israeli/Lebanon conflict was a terrible time but a perfect example. To hear the anti Jewish hatred broke my heart, yet when I asked why this existed, there was simply nothing substantial and many points could be disproved with simply opening history books. People accept what they are taught, even if that is wrong.

I agree completely about a need for understanding other cultures, it surprised me the things I managed to accept about the Arabic culture once I had gone to live there and to be honest without living there I doubt I would ever have understood.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

clearly not; there are plenty of cases where properly attired Muslim women are assaulted and so forth. the idea that wearing the hijab makes a person modest, however, is faulty. modesty is not in what one wears, in my view, it is their behavior that determines if they are modest or not.

100% correct and wearing the hijab reminds us constantly of Allah and our need to behave modestly but it must come from within a person. I have seen some porn videos with women wearing hijab, so I would never suggest the hijab itself makes a person modest, it is just a piece of cloth.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

it is, in a sense, the issue that we deal with on many other levels of our existence.. accepting the outter appearence as being indicative of the inner quality when, in fact, they do not have to be connected in the slightest.

Exactly. I am not claiming no Muslim women are oppressed, clearly some are but my thread was hoping to make people question whether looking at a woman wearing hijab could in itself suggest she is oppressed.

Salaam

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Muslimwoman,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Anyone can read an article about a terrorist act committed in the name of Islam or see on the internet that men are about to stone a woman to death under the banner of sharia law but do these issues actually come from Islam? This is my point, they do not.

therein lies the thorny parts of this discussion. it somewhat depends on what you mean by "comes from Islam".

Murder and suicide are strictly forbidden and the Quran does not contain one verse that even remotely suggests stoning as a punishment.

if Al Qur'an were the only source of guidance for Muslims, i'd happily conceed your point. it is, as we both know, not so. the Ahadith play a role every bit as important in the Muslim life.. though, clearly, there are always beings that place emphasis on one part over another.

regarding stoning.. it is my view that is simply the culturally acceptable method of execution at this point in history and has nothing to do with Islam, per se.

I can of course see why people have their misconceptions but wish people would take the time to find out whether this is Islam, although I do accept that is not as easy as it sounds.

in my view, one of the things that makes this more complicated is that Islam does not have a hierarchy in the same manner as many other traditions, i.e. where there is a single voice to speak on behalf of Muslims. of course, this is true in a technical context for other traditions as well.. the Pope really only represents the views of Roman Catholics and the Dalai Lama only reprents of the view of the Gelugpa Vajrayana school. in any event, these two beings have come to be view as a "spokesperson" for their faith traditions. Islam does not have this same sort of thing and, consequently, one can find several different Muslim schools of thought which each assert that they are the "correct" one.

of course, this is not confined to Islam, but since that is what we are talking about there isn't much need to elaborate on other traditions

You are absolutely correct that the situation exists on both sides. Living in Egypt during the last Israeli/Lebanon conflict was a terrible time but a perfect example. To hear the anti Jewish hatred broke my heart, yet when I asked why this existed, there was simply nothing substantial and many points could be disproved with simply opening history books. People accept what they are taught, even if that is wrong.

i agree and i am saddened by it. perhaps it is simply because i am a curious being.. i don't want to substitute someone elses understanding or experience for my own.. yet, it seems, many beings are happy to do that very thing the whole Israel/Palestine issue is one that, to me at any rate, is pretty straight forward based on the arguments that i most often hear. again, somewhat outside the scope of this conversation though i'd be happy to discuss it with you

I agree completely about a need for understanding other cultures, it surprised me the things I managed to accept about the Arabic culture once I had gone to live there and to be honest without living there I doubt I would ever have understood.

i grew up in Libya and i have my own experience of both Arab and Berber culture which, i can honestly say, is more favorably disposed towards the Berbers. nevertheless, and this may seem somewhat strange, i have such a fondness for the country.. not the political nature or religious nature, mind you, but the actual topography... i get very homesick sometimes for i fear that i shall never be able to return.

I have seen some porn videos with women wearing hijab, so I would never suggest the hijab itself makes a person modest, it is just a piece of cloth.

i quite agree though i think that we may disagree on the solution to this question which is, in my view, quite agreeable

in any event.. the argument that i often see presented is that men are inflamed to lust by the sight of a woman and therefore the woman should cover herself up. that is, to be frank, a purely patristic point of view and one which seems to be culturally derived.

if i see a being and feel lust, who is responsible for this feeling? the object or the being that is experiencing the sensation? it is, in my view, clearly the being which has the experience of lust which is responsible for controlling their behavior. to try to shift the burden of responsiblity for this feeling is to miss, in my view, a great opportunity to test ones character and, if found wanting, to engage in practice to strengthen it.

in my view, viewing it as the females "fault" for inspiring lust in a male is tantamount to blaming the female victim of a rape for being raped. it is, unfortunately, something that all cultures have demonstrated they are capable of doing.

i do not believe that one can meaningfully blame the victim for being raped nor can one blame a woman for a mans feelings of lust.

Exactly. I am not claiming no Muslim women are oppressed, clearly some are but my thread was hoping to make people question whether looking at a woman wearing hijab could in itself suggest she is oppressed.

Salaam

i would completely agree. about the only thing that wearing a hijab is indicative of is that a being is wearing a hijab

metta,

~v

[Muslimwoman]

wa aleykum salaam Vajradhara

Thaank you for your reply to my post

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

therein lies the thorny parts of this discussion. it somewhat depends on what you mean by "comes from Islam".

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

if Al Qur'an were the only source of guidance for Muslims, i'd happily conceed your point. it is, as we both know, not so. the Ahadith play a role every bit as important in the Muslim life.. though, clearly, there are always beings that place emphasis on one part over another.

This is certainly a difficult issue in Islam and a discussion I often hold with more traditional Muslims. I don't wish to bore you with quotes but I would like you go to a Quran search on the web and put in the word hadith. What you will read are the many verses pertaining to the Quran being THE hadith and G-d tells us in the Quran that no other hadith should be followed. It is also well documented (believe it or not in hadiths) that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) did not want a miriad of hadiths written, he was a very wise man indeed and anticipated the chinese whispers that would follow. It deeply saddens me that some Muslims are now virtually rejecting the obvious meanings of the Quran because "deeper meanings can be found in the hadith".

I truly pray that in time, with more and more moderate Muslim scholars emerging the ummah will learn to go back to the path Allah gave us, that being the Quran.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

regarding stoning.. it is my view that is simply the culturally acceptable method of execution at this point in history and has nothing to do with Islam, per se.

Thankyou for your wisdom here, I only wish more people could see the reality of your view.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

in my view, one of the things that makes this more complicated is that Islam does not have a hierarchy in the same manner as many other traditions, i.e. where there is a single voice to speak on behalf of Muslims. of course, this is true in a technical context for other traditions as well.. the Pope really only represents the views of Roman Catholics and the Dalai Lama only reprents of the view of the Gelugpa Vajrayana school. in any event, these two beings have come to be view as a "spokesperson" for their faith traditions. Islam does not have this same sort of thing and, consequently, one can find several different Muslim schools of thought which each assert that they are the "correct" one.

I could not agree with you more and only commented yesterday to a Muslim brother that we need an equivalent of the appeals court in the UK legal system. It is so confusing for a Muslim convert, you have every opinion from far right to far left and to know which is the right path is very difficult. I try, where I can, to simply follow the Quran. The principle of the ummah, at the start of Islam, was inspired. Everyone in the community was allowed a say and the consensus of the ummah was required. However, with the spread of Islam this became impossible and without a hierarchy Islam began to splinter and go on their different paths. Even today traditional followers will tell you that the four traditional schools of thought are the right path and you may follow any of them but they all differ in opinion (not just on minor issues). I am currently having a discusion with a Muslim brother on another thread regarding this very topic, how can 4 different opinions all be right? Ver confusing for us laypeople who just wish to please G-d.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i agree and i am saddened by it. perhaps it is simply because i am a curious being.. i don't want to substitute someone elses understanding or experience for my own.. yet, it seems, many beings are happy to do that very thing the whole Israel/Palestine issue is one that, to me at any rate, is pretty straight forward based on the arguments that i most often hear. again, somewhat outside the scope of this conversation though i'd be happy to discuss it with you .

Hmmm blind following, I am sorry but I just cannot understand it. I believe if G-d wanted us to act like sheep He would have made us sheep.

I would love to hear your views on the Israel/Palestine issue. Before I moved to Egypt I had very set views about this topic but now I have had to explore it more deeply and am now not sure what to think. What truly astonished me (and saddened me) is the depth of hated, and I mean hatred, some Arabs hold for the Jewish population. To see a 6 year old child cheering because a Jew had been killed made my blood boil, just the lunacy of teaching small children such hatred. Although it did make me start to see how Islamic fundamentalism begins. So please share your thoughts with me – I love to learn.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i grew up in

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Libya and i have my own experience of both Arab and Berber culture which, i can honestly say, is more favorably disposed towards the Berbers. nevertheless, and this may seem somewhat strange, i have such a fondness for the country.. not the political nature or religious nature, mind you, but the actual topography... i get very homesick sometimes for i fear that i shall never be able to return.

How fascinating, I hope that you will be able to return there one day. I have been interested to watch the change in political stance there over the last few years. Sometimes when I look at Egyptian culture I can just see the line between their African and Arabic roots. It is certainly a beautiful area of the world, that sounds silly because it is mainly sand, but having been I feel sure you know what I mean. I think perhaps it is the vastness that impresses me and the constantly changing landscape. Please will you share some of your experiences from childhood, what was it like to be a child growing up in such a rich culture with such difficult political issues?

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i quite agree though i think that we may disagree on the solution to this question which is, in my view, quite agreeable .

Go on then be agreeable and tell me your agreeable solution….

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

in any event.. the argument that i often see presented is that men are inflamed to lust by the sight of a woman and therefore the woman should cover herself up. that is, to be frank, a purely patristic point of view and one which seems to be culturally derived.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

if i see a being and feel lust, who is responsible for this feeling? the object or the being that is experiencing the sensation? it is, in my view, clearly the being which has the experience of lust which is responsible for controlling their behavior. to try to shift the burden of responsiblity for this feeling is to miss, in my view, a great opportunity to test ones character and, if found wanting, to engage in practice to strengthen it. .

I agree with you in part, men must be responsible for their own actions and controlling their own urges. Non Muslim men manage to look at women in bikini’s without either having to rape them or go insane, so why can’t Muslim men. The obvious answer is they can and do. I read a comment by a Muslim scholar recently that stated that men were basically ‘unable’ to control their urges, perhaps he should have rephrased it to say HE couldn’t. Honestly, I despair at some of the things Muslim men sometimes.

However a question has arisen, over the past 20 years or so, in the west of whether the dress and behaviour of women contributes to rape – usually through court cases. I am in no way excusing rape but I do think it raises the issue for women. Should it be ok to walk down the street naked and be unmolested, of course but will it ever be ok and safe in any society? I just feel we must each pla