Why Believe????

[brian]

Certainly true - and the human animal is capable of a very wide range of experiences.

I guess that reflects in our great variation in language, culture, and belief.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

some very interesting replies to this topic.. ones that i should like to reply to as well however, i will simply reply to the thread topic with this post and then move along


why believe... hmm... that's a great question and one that can be quite rightly answered with "why not?"

in my own case, i was a believer at one point and became an unbeliever. not in the existence of God as a lingua franca to describe the universe, per sey, rather the "concept" of God.

when i was young i was 'saved' at a Chrisitan summer camp... upon reflection, i cannot say if i was saved because that's what everyone else was doing or if it was a singling out. in either case, there was a "spritiual experience" that was had.. and it started me down the road of spiritual exploration that has wound up with me practicing Buddhism.

i've gone through just about every permutation that you could care to... from Western Mysticism to Eastern Alchemy, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zorastorism and so forth for a while, i though that nothing would be able to reconcile the flaws in those thelogoical constructs and ethical systems.

basically, it all boiled down to one question that could not be answered in a satisfactory way by any of the other traditions (with a possible exception of Taoism). the question is thus: Where is this "I" that you speak of so highly? Where is this "I" that you think that you are?

i searched and searched but could not find a place where "I" began and the parts quit being parts. Buddhism has, in my opinion, the answer to this question and it is quite startling and, once understood, completely changes ones world view. their answer is "there is no I."

one of the other things, that for me was highly significant, is that the monotheistic traditions are pretty defined and stiltified now. it is impossible for me to believe that a book is both the Inerrent Word of God and at the same time, written by a guy that poops behind a bush. these are irrconcilable differences and the insistence upon accpeting every word of the Holy Text, as the Word of God, is not something that i can do. actually, it's classic Meme Theory grafted to religion.... interestingly enough, Buddhism seems to be the only world religion that doesn't qualify as a meme... go figure

the Buddha says not to accept any of his teachings based on respect for him or any religious teacher or teachings, for that matter. one should test the teaching for oneself and only afterwards should one decide to accept it or not. it's a very scientific method of religious pursuit which is a novel thing in and of itself for most Westerners.

whew... was this on point? sometimes i tend to ramble and just sort of zig and zag around the stated topic

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by mac1

Please don't take this the wrong way, but how many people here actually 100% believe in a God of any description?

Am I the only person who visits this site, that does not believe in God? It certainly seems that way - Why all the definate belief from you guys? Don't get me wrong, I'm no atheist, but I don't believe anything blindly. Have all you guys (and girls) seen something to make you believe? How many of you believe blindly due to your social background? Is anyone else completely undecided like myself?

A couple of links if you're interested. And, although this is more about the manifestion of my beliefs, these experiences did occur during a period after my beliefs had been shattered ...

And yes, I believe it's appropriate not to believe in God "blindly."

http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html

http://www.dionysus.org/x0901.html

[I, Brian]

Vajradhara -

Are you suer Buddhism is not a meme? Actually, perhaps that's another discussion.

Iacchus -

Fascinating stuff, though there's too much on your site for me to read and get an idea of the specific threads of thought running through everything. Do you have an actual summary page detailing how your ideas shape? I'm curious to see how you fit Dionysios with Christianity. So if you could possibly point myself towards a conclusion chapter or similar, that could be most useful.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Iacchus -

Fascinating stuff, though there's too much on your site for me to read and get an idea of the specific threads of thought running through everything. Do you have an actual summary page detailing how your ideas shape? I'm curious to see how you fit Dionysios with Christianity. So if you could possibly point myself towards a conclusion chapter or similar, that could be most useful.

Hi Brian,

I tried doing something similar to this with my Overview Page, but never quite got around to finishing it. Shame on me! Yet the thing of it is, I have spent so much time and money and resources on this project -- with very little response from others -- that quite frankly, I've been finding it hard to motivate myself. It's a big project that never seems to end. I also began working on the book in 1989 (it's not quite finished), which was quite some time ago, and the longer it seems I wait, the more difficult it is to relate to as well.

However, after having been on hiatus the past five or six months, after discovering PhysicsForums.Com -- yeah that's right! -- and making well over 1,400 posts! (PF 2.0 and PF 3.0) -- I think it's about time to get back to work on the book (primarily), and forget about any major improvements I can make to the webpage, as this hasn't seemed to pan out so far. I really do need to get things wrapped up with the book and ready for publishing (even if that means having to do it myself).

So much for my own problems anyway! In answer to your request for a summary I will try and give you a brief summary of the chapters and show how they relate to each other and perhaps that will help? Except that, due to its length, I'm going to hold off until my next reply, which hopefully I can get to shortly, Okay?

[I, Brian]

No problem - and trust me, I appreciate the immensity of what you mean about investing so much time and money into a project. My novel writing has been 8 years and 750,000 words in the making! I'm sincerely confident that I can get into traditional publishing with my current work, because I finally got around to trying to understand what every stage in the process of publishing (and, not least, the market) actually demands.

From what I saw of your work there was a lot of information, but it was hard to see the lines of reasoning being followed. For example, I figure that somewhere you're making a Christi vs Dionysios comparison - but I couldn't quickly locate it. Or am I forcing my own interpretation there?

[Iacchus]

Hello again,

I'm going to begin by mentioning chapter 5, as this was the main experience that ties everything together. Basically everything stems from this one experience. The first three chapters, including the page on About the Cover, speak about the lineage of The Church, beginning with the Church of Adam and its progression to the Christian Church which, contrary to what most people believe, ended in 1757 (in accord with the book of Revelation), as proclaimed by the renowned Swedish scientist, theologin and, mystic, Emanuel Swedenborg. While throughout these first few chapters (as well as throughout the book) I make references to Dionysus and his possible affiliations with Christ. I've also made references to this lineage (as well as to the base fourteen system below) in the thread The Church of Man.

Chapter 4 involves the magazine I found (of erotic origin) which was delivered to my doorstep on the 14th day of the 14th month which, happened to be St. Valentine's Day. It was delivered by some young boys (i.e., cupid) who came upstairs and knocked on my door before running away. From this I derived the base fourteen numbering system, based upon the fourteen images of one woman in particular, and the fourteen women's names I associated with them. Indeed it's a very inuitive system in nature. While come to find out later, there were the fourteen Athenian women -- The Gerarai -- who, along with the Queen of Athens, celebrated in the worship of Dionysus. The whole thing will just blow you away!

Thus having established the woman's will (or fourth aspect) in chapter 4, it seems fitting that it lead into chapter 5, which describes The Advent of the New Church, similar to Revelation chapter 12, which describes the woman clothed with the sun who gives birth to the man-child (signifying the birth of new doctrine). So basically this is what chapter 5 represents, in accord with The Advent of Dionysus.

Chapter 6 is kind of a hodge-podge of sorts, containing a lot of symbolism and ideas I had been working on when I was developing my ideas. It begins with The Seal of God, the symbol that coincides with the rebirth experience in chapter 5. It's not to be overlooked! While chapter 7 is based upon the fourteen sexual positions developed in accord with the fourteen Gerrai. And, since the number seven, according to what I've defined by the fourteen Gerarai, represents "The Marriage," also, that which is "Holy and complete," I deemed chapter 7 would be the appropriate place to discuss this.

Chapter 8 speaks of the number 479 and the vision of the badge I received from work, being strung up to the top of a pyramid. The number 479 also corresponds to the name Dennis (my name) and, to the name David. It also represents the highpriest, which is why I've included it in chapter 8, as it involves circumcision (on the 8th day), and in general a "mystical unveiling."

Chapter 9 discusses my former mentor Roy Masters and some of the falsities associated with his organization, the Foundation of Human Understanding (which led to the shattering of my beliefs mentioned earlier). And, as it's illustrated in accord with the Native Americans which, in accordance with Sagitarius -- The Archer, and "9th sign," the whole thing seems to be right on target, and thus fitting to discuss it in chapter 9. And, aside from the fact that "a bow" is associated with the Native Americans, it also signifies "doctrine" -- i.e., in the "spiritual sense."

Chapter 10 continues with my idea about the grafting of the English walnut tree to the black walnut tree in chapter 1. Where the English walnut represents Great Britain, and hence the 5th Church, in succession to the Christian or 4th Church; whereas the black walnut tree, a tree indigenous to North America, represents the United States, and hence the 6th Church. All of which is portrayed (as well as foretold) by Israel adopting the two sons of Joseph -- "Ephraim and Manasseh" -- in the book of Genesis. It should also be noted that the numbers 5 and 6 add up to 11 and, that 56 and 65 add up to 121 which, is also 11 x 11. And so it was, Joseph was the 11th son of Israel.

Well I didn't quite mean to be so verbose here, so I'm going to continue on with a second post, to make it easier on the eyes.

[Iacchus]

Here we are again,

Chapter 11 is primarily auto-biographical, and is used to express the twenty year period -- and hence Odyssey -- of how I came about discovering my spirituality. This is why I've illustrated it in accord with Odysseus, and indeed, it seemed like I was in a power struggle against the god Poseidon. All of which became highlighted by the experience I had when completeing the part about Polyphemus (with this part extending down to the part about the First Residence). There's also a similarity here to Revelation 11, which speaks about the Two Witnesses, which are preliminary to the establishment of the New Church in Revelation 12.

Hence we have chapter 12, which speaks of the development of the New Church in Southern Oregon. And, similar to the Seven Churches of Asia, I took the configuration of the seven major cities in the area (all somewhat rural and small town) and laid it over the Seven Churches of Asia, and it's nearly an exact fit! (except the Southern Oregon area is about half-scale). While this is essentially where Roy Masters has relocated his church, The Foundation of Human Understanding, from Southern California. And indeed many people have moved to the region with "spiritual inclinations." So it's definitely a happening place! (or so it was).

Chapter 13 is similar to Revelation 13, which speaks of the persecution of the New Church by the beast out of the sea and the false prophet. And while most people aren't aware of this, the dragon, the beast out of the sea and the false prophet are all representative of the Church of the Reformed in Emanuel Swedenborg's day -- aka, The Reformation. And indeed I portray Roy Masters as a modern day Martin Luther, while bringing up my ten points of contention against his church (as the beast out of the sea had ten horns on its head), most of which have to do with the relationship between men and women.

So the book is about Dionysus? And yet, except for chapter 5, I really don't go into too much depth about Dionysus (although his presence is fairly well perceived). This is why I created chapter 14, for although the book is more about my own personal experience, and the projections derived therefrom, I really felt the need to be more inclusive about Dionysus. So hopefully this will help clear up any loose ends. And make no bones about it, the book was written specifically with Dionysus in mind.

Aside from the fact that I thought the book was finished at chapter 14, things just kept coming up to prolong it. With the main issue being, if in fact Dionysus does exist, then where is the love of his life, Ariadne? For indeed, the story is nowheres near complete without Ariadne. This is primarily what I've been working on since 1997, and is what chapters 15, 16 and 17 begin to explore (although work on chapter 16 has been suspended). While here I've added an extension to chapter 4, to explore some of these developments with respect to the Israelite Church (the relationship between Israel and his four wives).

Boy that was a long write! I didn't expect it to take me most of the day to do it but, I finally got it done. I think this should really help as far as your summary goes. I hope so! Also, I'm thinking about posting this on my overview page which, shouldn't pose a problem with you should it? Since I posted it on your forum first? I hope not!

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

From what I saw of your work there was a lot of information, but it was hard to see the lines of reasoning being followed. For example, I figure that somewhere you're making a Christi vs Dionysios comparison - but I couldn't quickly locate it. Or am I forcing my own interpretation there?

Yeah, my line of reasoning does tend to bounce around a bit, although as I mention in chapter 14 ...

Although my book is about Dionysus, indeed it speaks of his very advent (or second coming), my intent was to present the events that have occurred in my lifetime, as well as my viewpoint, which accompanies it. And as his myth was developed thousands of years ago, when he first appeared, plenty has already been said. Hence I was more preoccupied with drawing a parallel, with his myth the closest approximation to my story, and the best vehicle for conveying it. Indeed there's a real connection to be made. It therefore seems fitting that I begin writing about Dionysus here, at the end of the book.

I know that when people read the title -- The Advent of Dionysus -- they probably expect to find themselves surrounded by the persona of Dionysus, rather than someone's personal viewpoint and projections. And yet I don't know if there's any better way to go about it? Also, when I began developing my ideas, I was working with more than one thing at once, and wasn't really so concerned with how it would come together as book, but rather treated each idea separately, as if it were its own discipline. Which I think is summed up by the following quote from my guestbook ...

I was helping my son find information about Dionysus and used Lycos. I was amazed to discover a site with rich links and its own internal composition of multi-disciplinary views into history, religion & mythology. Well done. I've kept the bookmark for myself and will forward it to our minister (I am webweaver for our UU church at http://www.ultranet.com/~fpmilton .

Even so, I continue to wonder if the book is not too disjointed and lacking in cohesiveness?

[I, Brian]

Iacchus -

I think you've demonstrated my point! I guess what I'm looking for is something more cerebral - a statement of ideas and principles, which is further explained in the chapters referenced. What you've actually linked to is a series of experiences and thoughts, which don't seem very focussed on relating the actual main crux of the book.

By that I mean that if you are arguing for the return of Dionysios, you seem to be either straying fom that point, or else not emphasising from the beginning that this is your point, and how it rationalised.

Just how it seems to myself - but, again, I could simply be mis-understanding it all.

Btw - If you need to make in-depth comment again could you please refer to your overview, rather than fill this thread with your own links? Simply because otherwise the issue of self-promotion could get a little difficult.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Iacchus -

I think you've demonstrated my point! I guess what I'm looking for is something more cerebral - a statement of ideas and principles, which is further explained in the chapters referenced. What you've actually linked to is a series of experiences and thoughts, which don't seem very focussed on relating the actual main crux of the book.

By that I mean that if you are arguing for the return of Dionysios, you seem to be either straying fom that point, or else not emphasising from the beginning that this is your point, and how it rationalised.

Just how it seems to myself - but, again, I could simply be mis-understanding it all.

Actually it has less to do with being cerebral than it does with everything just into falling into my lap so to speak, more as a "witness" to an event. At least this is what I'm trying to convey, and in a way that allows people to make up their own minds about it. Perhaps it's not the best approach? A bit too passive? It obviously still needs work. Another thing is that I don't want it to be too difficult for the lay person to understand, as it's not so much about the "intellectual pursuit," as it is the actual experience. And yet, I'm not sure how well this comes across either? Of course this is all where a good editor comes in handy!

Btw - If you need to make in-depth comment again could you please refer to your overview, rather than fill this thread with your own links? Simply because otherwise the issue of self-promotion could get a little difficult.

Yeah, I got the same impression by the time I was through. In fact I just sent you an email reiterating the same thing and said I would be happy to remove them. No problem.

I'll just restate that if anyone wants to get an overall view of my book they can do so by visiting my Overview Page, although it may be awhile before it gets fully updated, Okay? Thanks.

[I, Brian]

If you're happy with the approach you have in mind - the experience - then stick to that. Likely it's the more workable.

Likely I'm just being impatient. Partly, it's a habit from surfing the web - when I research an issue I will often only read specific areas sought, to gether information quickly.

I researched the issue of comparing Hellenic deities with Jesus a while back as well - not too deeply, but enough to bear in mind names such as Dionysios, Apollo, and Helios, who all share some similarities in certain respects with the Christian tradition. Dionysios especially for the concept of resurrection personified in a man. Of course, that also leads into Green Man territory as well. Depends upon the personal dierction sought, though.

[Dave the Web]

The point has been made and perhaps proved that our beliefs are shaped by our guiding experiences. I would like to further ask whether these exeperiences alone are what shape our beliefs or is there something else? By my question I mean to ask if there is some very particular hunger that can only be fed by very particular ideas? Is there instance of two or more people experiencing closely related experiences but who end up following different belief systems?

[louis]

Originally Posted by mac1

Wow! That is truly facinating. Would you mind telling me about it here (or on a new post or personal message), or is it too personal? The subject of OOBE's and NDE's has interested me for years, as you know I tryed astral projection (without success) myself for a while. Such an experience as yours would likely convince me too.

From Louis...
I've had one of those so-called "out of body" experiences.
I don't consider anything "magical" - just an indication
that my mind seemed to share a "connection" that did
come about through any of my physical senses.
It happened like this :
I was on an medical cart, coming out of anesthetic after
dental surgery. As I awakened, I had a brief memory of
seeing a car being towed away after an accident. It was
not vague like a dream - it was sharp, clear and in full
colour - a road I recognised with the skidmarks on it -
a damaged car I recognised as belonging to one of my
co-workers - enough to re-construct what had happened.
And, of course, the moment I returned to work, I
confronted him about it in front of other witnesses, telling him to not say anything - just listen while I decribed the accident.
He was shocked because the accident had been his
fault and he had hoped to keep it quiet.
But he did confirm in front of witnesses the exact
TIME it happened - the SAME time I was unconscious several miles away.
" Beleive it or not ! "

[louis]

i searched and searched but could not find a place where "I" began and the parts quit being parts. Buddhism has, in my opinion, the answer to this question and it is quite startling and, once understood, completely changes ones world view. their answer is "there is no I."

From Louis...
I find your viewpoint very puzzling because ALL my
experience has shown me the opposite - I have never
had even the smallest doubt that "I" exist !
Although I sometimes wonder if anything ELSE exists ....