Who were the "Men of Old/Renown?"

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

Welcome to CR farhan! I appreciate your contribution here, it does shed a little different light on the subject. I know very little of Jinns, only the popularized myths concerning "genies". Thank you.

Quahom, I don't have my Bible handy in front of me, but I have wondered on this subject before as well. Seems I recall that a big part of the reason God initially flooded the earth in Noah's time was because of the influx of nephilim/human hybrids. I also seem to recall the Bible stating that a fresh or continuing influx began after the flood, which gave rise to the race of giants that included Goliath at a later date. I have also heard it said that the wars the Israelites fought coming out of the wilderness of Sinai were predominantly against this "fallen" race. I seem to recall mention of the iron bedstead of Og, one of their kings, being in existence at some time in the history of Israel, probably as some form of reminder.

I also recall New Testament prophecy that seems to hint at a resurgence of the nephilim/human hybrid population towards the end of this age. That "angels" once again (if not always) will mate with humans. Scary stuff.

In looking for myths concerning giants, I haven't found anything archeologically to support the stories directly. But I have stumbled on a couple of folktales that hint at giants living among humans. Supposedly during the time of King Authur, one of his chief allies was a man known as Lord Cornwell, who it is said used to hunt giants for sport in the south of England. Another story I read claimed a burial chamber deep in a cave in the Himalayas that contained the bodies of a father, mother and son, all of whom were well over ten feet tall.

An interesting side note concerns the writer Jules Verne. I find it interesting that most all of his stories, which were pure fantasy when he wrote them over a hundred years ago, have come true in some form. Like Submarines and Moon landings. He based his stories on the known sciences of his day. The only story I am aware of that has not come true, is "Journey to the Center of the Earth." Yet, in that story he relates to a race of giants. Since his speculations were based on science of the day, and many things in that story are supported by geology and fossil findings, I cannot help but wonder from what he drew his idea of giants.

Giants have a significance in the human psyche. Myths like "Jack and the beanstalk" keep the significance alive to us, generation after generation. And since myth does not necessarily mean "false," (that is, truths are sometimes painted over with myth), I cannot help but wonder if the concept of giants and all they represent have some basis in fact, and not merely a symbolic representation of something significant to our collective psyche. Farhan's contribution shows me the "myths" of giants reach beyond Western or Christian folklore, as the Himalaya story already showed me the reach into Buddhism. I wonder if Vaj might have anything to add towards this discussion?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

Just catching up on a couple of points.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

If the flood occured around 2343 BC(E), when did the "Men of Old" come into existence?

Possibly before the creation of Adam and Eve, that is, the sixth day creation.

If one ignores the alien theory, and the decendents of Cain theory, one is left with the angel/human hybrid theory.

Why must these "theories" be ignored, if one really wishes to play devil's advocate? Could it not be, Biblically speaking, that any or all of these are compatible with each other? I have heard it said that the root word for alien, meaning stranger, is the same root used for angel, meaning messenger. As for the Kenites, is it only that Cain had intermarried and had children outside of his race that is cause for concern? Or perhaps that his (Cain's) father was one of those "men of renown," that the serpent seduced Eve in every sense of the word, which is why Cain's geneology is not included in the descendants of Adam?

Would not someone like Goliath and the Cannanites that frightened Israel's army with their tremendous size and strength be candidates for the title "Nephilim"? (logically speaking).

Yes. They were and are.

Some may argue that angels are non corporial beings. I would say normally true, however, there have been times when angels assumed very physical bodies (Passover, the little wrestling match between Jacob and the angel, the guardian to the entrance of Eden, Lot's guests...).

Also, since we know that energy can be manipulated into matter and vice versa, it does not seem outlandish that a being normally existing in an energy state could not have the ability to slow that energy down into matter, does it?

You bring up a good question. However, something tells me it is not an easy thing to accomplish, stepping across the boundary and interacting. In other words, I don't think spirit beings on the whole are capable of crossing the boundary at will. Only some very powerful ones, and even they are limited. Their offspring, however, are in this realm, and (strictly guessing) perhaps provide a vehicle for such a spirit to occupy.

Finally, scripture clearly states that "man" will be raised from the dead for final judgement (whether good or evil), but the "Nephilim" are dead, and will never rise. Could it be that they had no "immortal spirit" to begin with?

Or, that spirit has already been judged to death, but the sentence has yet to be carried out.

[kayleyroze]

This Is Appendix 25 From The Companion Bible.
The progeny of the fallen angels with the daughters of Adam (see notes on Genesis 6, and Appendix 23 are called in Genesis 6, N e-phil´-im, which means fallen ones (from naphal, to fall). What these beings were can be gathered only from Scripture. They were evidently great in size, as well as great in wickedness. They were superhuman, abnormal beings; and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race, and for the faithfulness of Jehovah's Word (Genesis 3:15).
This was why the Flood was brouhgt "upon the world of the ungodly" (2Peter 2:5) as prophesied by Enoch (Jude 14).
But we read of the Nephilim again in Numbers 13:33 : "there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim". How, it may be asked, could this be, if they were all destroyed in the Flood ? The answer is contained in Genesis 6:4, where we read: "There were Nephilim in the earth in those days (that is to say, in the days of Noah); and also AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became [the] mighty men (Hebrew gibbor, the heroes) which were of old, men of renown" (literally, men of the name, that is to say, who got a name and were renowned for their ungodliness).
So that "after that", that is to say, after the Flood, there was a second irruption of these fallen angels, evidently smaller in number and more limited in area, for they were for the most part confined to Canaan, and were in fact known as "the nations of Canaan". It was for the destruction of these, that the sword of Israel was necessary, as the Flood had been before.
As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Genesis 12:6) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated: "The Canaanite was then (that is to say, already) in the land." And in Genesis 14:5 they were already known as "Rephaim" and "Emim", and had established themselves as Ashteroth Karnaim and Shaveh Kiriathaim.
In chapter 15:18-21 they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples: "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites" (Genesis 15:19-21; compare Exodus 3:8,17; 23:23. Deuteronomy 7; 20:17. Joshua 12:8).
These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deuteronomy 20:17. Joshua 3:10). But Israel failed in this (Joshua 13:13; 15:63; 16:10; 17:18. Judges 1:19,20,28,29,30-36; 2:1-5; 3:1-7); and we know not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology.
As to their other names, they were called Anakim, from one Anak which came of the Nephilim (Numbers 13:22,33), and Rephaim, from Rapha, another notable one among them.
From Deuteronomy 2:10, they were known by some as Emim, and Horim, and Zamzummim (verse 20,21) and Avim, etc.
As Rephaim they were well known, and are often mentioned: but, unfortunately, instead of this, their proper name, being preserved, it is variously translated as "dead", "deceased", or "giants". These Rephaim are to have no resurrection. This fact is stated in Isaiah 26:14 (where the proper name is rendered "deceased", and verse 19, where it is rendered "the dead").
It is rendered "dead" seven times (Job 26:5. Psalm 88:10. Proverbs 2:18; 9:18; 21:16. Isaiah 14:8; 26:19).
It is rendered "deceased" in Isaiah 26:14.
It is retained as proper name "Rephaim" ten times (two being in the margin). Genesis 14:5; 15:20. Joshua 12:15 (margin). 2Samuel 5:18,22; 23:13. 1Chronicles 11:15; 14:9; 20:4 (margin). Isaiah 17:5.
In all other places it is rendered "giants" , Genesis 6:4, Numbers 23:33, where it is Nephilim; and Job 16:14, where it is gibbor (Appendix 14. iv).
By reading all these passages the Bible student may know all that can be known about these beings.
It is certain that the second irruption took place before Genesis 14, for there the Rephaim were mixed up with the five nations or peoples, which included Sodom and Gomorrha, and were defeated by the four kings under Chedorlaomer. Their principal locality was evidently "Ashtaroth Karnaim"; while the Emim were in the plain of Kiriathaim (Genesis 14:5).


sorry but i'll have to put this on 2 posts

[kayleyroze]

Part 2....................


Anak was a noted descendant of the Nephilim; and Rapha was another, giving their names respectively to different clans. Anak's father was Arba, the original builder of Hebron (Genesis 35:27. Joshau 15:13; 21:11); and this Palestine branch of the Anakim was not called Abrahim after him, but Anakim after Anak. They were great, mighty, and tall (Deuteronomy 2:10,11,21,22,23; 9:2), evidently inspiring the ten spies with great fear (Numbers 12:33). Og king of Bashan is described in Deuteronomy 3:11).
Their strength is seen in "the giant cities of Bashan" to-day; and we know not how far they may have been utilized by Egypt in the construction of buildings, which is still an unsolved problem.
Arba was rebuilt by the Khabiri or confederates seven years before Zoan was built by Egyptian Pharoahs of the nineteenth dynasty. See note on Numbers 13:22.
If these Nephilim, and their branch of Rephaim, were associated with Egypt, we have an explanation of the problem which has for ages perplexed all engineers, as to how those huge stones and monuments were brought together. Why not in Egypt as well as in "the giant cities of Bashan" which exist, as such, to this day?
Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Genesis 6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks.
Thus the Babylonian "Creation Tablets", the Egyptian "Book of the dead", the Greek mythology, and heathen Comogonies, which by some are set on an equality with Scripture, or by others adduced in support of it, are all the corruption and perversion of primitive truths, distorded in proportion as their origin was forgotten, and their memories faded away.


It sounds like the Nephilim could have been the gods of Greek and Egyptian mythology.

[Chalice]

Read the text and you will find that there were three races - the offspring of the "Sons of God" and the earth women, who became the "men of renown/heoroes of old; the mortal men; and the "nephilim"/giants. The only ones the TEXT defines as evil were the mortal men, not the heroes of old, or the giants.

The Giants are listed only to give the story a time frame. Today we would give a date, like 1992, or 1865, but this society did not have this, so they identified their era with something significant that they could identify - they lived in the time when the nephilim/giants lived. The text never states that the giants were evil, or what they were, they could have been the Titans, or dinosaurs.

Noah's fathers geanology is given in Genesis 5, and then the "Sons of God" descendents who are the heroes of old/men of renown are told of. Noah is a man of renown, a heroe of old, isn't he? This is why this family history of the "Sons of God" and earth women are listed since the time "of Adam" in this text - it is Noah's OTHER geanology, his mother's family history!

Because Noah survived, and we descend from him, we are also descended from these "Sons of God" who were never ever listed as evil in the text!

Noah and his family were rememberd as a pantheon after the tower of Bable, when the languages divided and the earth split during the life of peleg. That is why the Teutons and the Greeks both have a pantheon that lives upon a mountain top in a temple home: the Ark doubled as a worship place where Noah made a sacrifice according to the Biblical text, as well as their home. Atlantis, the perfect society where everyone had miraculous powers, probibally developed from the Noahide, post-alluval society as well, and eventually the entire world remembered Noah, his wife, and their children as the pantheons of the world.

If you get a good fat book on world mythology, carefully read the Biblical text of Genesis 5,6,7, and 8, and Get Strong's Exhaustive Concordance so you can look up important words like nephilim/giants, you will see that I am right, and that we descend from Noah, who had heavenly and earthly parentage. God only destroyed the "mortal men" who descended from Adam and Eve and inherited the full capacity to sin. Noah turned on his miraculous powers by "walking with God" according tothe Text, and Christ, who existed as Jehovah/Eloheme in the OT instructed believers in him that IF we believe in him, will have "greater" powers than he himself had while upon earth! I think that faith in God through Christ is the "key" to turning back on our "Sons of God" powers that cause supernatural miracles to happen. I am glad others are thinking about this story as well.

[Satanist]

Gilgamesh and other cultural heroes fit in nicely.

Giants of various sorts are mentioned in other cultures.

The kings and or Queens of various middle eastern cultures where through gods through legacy or more simply gods.

The Goddess Tiamat is responsible for much woo of the Deluge in it's older mesopotamian versions.
She is the flood goddess and she is slayed,
a servitor dragon is slayed too and from it's blood mankind were made to serve the Gods.
Marduk so collects the elements and become King over the world in all it's four directions.

Chinese myths of deluge also mentions a corresponding dragon fighting against other elements and puting them out of balance
which resulted in flooding.If I don't rememer faulty.

Greek religion also had a flood myth.

[Satanist]

Also think there is trace of antique racial biology here and old predjudice.

Every kindom supposed to orginate in tribal gods
and therefore Judaism were created by one true god.

All the people of other nations were hated and created by demons and their kings were though to be demons.

And the only true mankind were the people of Isreal as
the other were created by Demons that would later in mythology be called Nephilim.

You have to remember that almost every culture had ideas of devine rulership and devinely ancestry for their peoples
in the direct way.