Who teaches religious aggrogance?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

LOL you really think you were so lucky???? Sorry I was forgetting about the blessed US of A. Is this where we all bow down and say "we're not worthy"?

I think maybe you've hit something here... And dondi touched on it as well.

Our arrogance comes from lack of knowledge and understanding. I am not well traveled...North America yes, but the world, no. And my exploration into what other religions believe reduced my arrogance. And I'd say if I spent some time living in other countries I'd get an appreciation for them too.

So who teaches this...ignorance possibly?

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hinduism (Rig-Veda approx. 1700 - 1100 BCE), Buddhism (The Buddha born approx 560 BCE)…

s.

And Buddhism is originally formed from Hinduism and most ancient religions have reformed, split, changed or progressed if not disappeared totally.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by wil

Our arrogance comes from lack of knowledge and understanding. I am not well traveled...North America yes, but the world, no. And my exploration into what other religions believe reduced my arrogance. And I'd say if I spent some time living in other countries I'd get an appreciation for them too.

I do think it strange that the world's wealthiest country (at the moment!) has (apparently) such a relatively low ownership of passports. But then you do have a big country to explore already!

Conversely, foreign travel doesn’t of course automatically lead to consciousness-raising. I feel a lot of British citizens would stay at home for their holidays to get drunk if they could be guaranteed plenty of sunshine. British people going abroad and complaining about the “foreign” people, culture and food is a sad joke, but true in many cases. I also know that people extol the virtues of holidays they have had in (say) Spain or Greece, saying there were English-style pubs, English food, the waiters spoke English…..

s.

[Muslimwoman]

Hi All

Dondi, brilliant post and for me you have hit the nail right on the head. I have been so lucky and lived amid a number of cultures. As Snoopy so rightly points out, this was not a beer swilling get a tan holiday but actually living among completely different attitudes and beliefs, you have to open your mind and challenge the things you believe are "right and factual". It was this that formed my "moderate" attitudes of today. I get so frustrated when I see how closed minded the people are around me, because they have no external knowledge or influence to challenge what they have been taught. Perhaps this is what the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) meant when he said we "must search for knowledge, even unto China"?

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

So who teaches this...ignorance possibly?

Hi Wil

Agree completely and I do not mean that in an "ignorant peasants" way. Wow, how on earth do we go about dealing with this problem though?

Salaam

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Muslimwoman,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

1. Who teaches religious arrogance? By that I mean the "we are right and everyone else is wrong" attitude? Does it originate with G-d requiring one religious belief throughout mankind or the Prophets (pbut) trying to increase the numbers of followers, or the religious leaders that seek power in this lifetime or with followers needing to be right? (before anyone gets offended my question is not designed to 'question' G-d, just our understanding of His requirements).

i would have to say that it stems, in a religious sense, from a religious ideology that purports to be the "only truth" or "only *correct* path" once a human is convinced that they are right and that those that disagree are wrong, things become tense. couple with this with a, in some cases, divine mandate to "covert the heathen" and it is a recipe for intolerace and fascism.

ultimately, of course, this is all related to humans and how they choose to conduct themselves.

2. Why do people feel that G-d chose to create many nations, yet believe G-d wants us all to follow the same religion?

it is, essentially, the same thing as above except here we find the insertion of the human ego to a much larger degree. accepting the premis of the question, this would seem to indicate that humans knew better than God how God wanted humans to worship. hubris, pure hubris.

3. Do you find that people who "find G-d" on their own are more moderate in their views (ie they have not been influenced by the specific teachings of a church or teacher)?

Look forward to your answers.

Salaam

well.. it depends on if they stay independent in their thought or if they choose to conform to the more main stream, shall we say, views of their tradition. generally speaking, though, i think that this is a matter of individual temperment more than anything else.

metta,

~v

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

ultimately, of course, this is all related to humans and how they choose to conduct themselves.

as salaam aleykum Vajradhara

Thank you for joining the discussion. I think this is why I called the thread "who teaches religious arrogance", rather than intolerance. I see these 'holier than thou' attitudes as man made arrogance. My personal view is that G-d did not create any man or woman 'better' than any other, no matter their mental capacity, religion, physical attributes, colour or gender. Yes, all men sin and do good to varying degrees, which may deminish or uplift them but this is through choice.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

accepting the premis of the question, this would seem to indicate that humans knew better than God how God wanted humans to worship. hubris, pure hubris.

Well said. I feel this is well demonstrated in the various interpretations of scriptures. Of course our scholars know better than G-d what He intended to say and clearly G-d just has a problem expressing Himself. Sometimes I am truly ashamed to be human.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

well.. it depends on if they stay independent in their thought or if they choose to conform to the more main stream, shall we say, views of their tradition. generally speaking, though, i think that this is a matter of individual temperment more than anything else.

I have thought about this rather a lot over the last couple of days and must agree with you. I have met converts who were more extreme than born Muslims (they seem to want to deeply adhere to something, anything would do) and yet I have met converts who seem to see the true and original peaceful path.

Salaam

[China Cat Sunflower]

Having been accused myself many times of being an arrogant prick, I would say that the perceived arrogance often lies merely in one's refusal to bend the knee.

Chris

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Having been accused myself many times of being an arrogant prick, I would say that the perceived arrogance often lies merely in one's refusal to bend the knee.

Chris

Well said Chris.

I know here we, as Muslims, are told by our faith to be modest and humble. Now we just have to try actually learning the lesson. The men here are so proud that the humble farmer prays side by side with the town governor. Then they leave the mosque and the governor would not piddle on the farmer were he on fire.

Salaam

[Vajradhara]

there often seems to be a great show to demonstrate how inclusive and egalatarian ones religious practice is whilst the fruits of said practice rarely seem to be in season.

i think that this is not confined to any particular tradition, however.

i suppose that the most that i can say is that the question of religion is important and it is worthwhile for every human to investigate and come to their own conclusions regarding these issues.

metta,

~v

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Having been accused myself many times of being an arrogant prick, I would say that the perceived arrogance often lies merely in one's refusal to bend the knee.

Chris

Well said!!!

If there is a weapon against religious arrogance that works, it is by punishment, reprimand, scolding, embarrassment in public and a red face -- being told that we're rude, inpolite, arrogant pricks and have a disgusting, revolting attitude to other people.

After the ordeal we become a more refined person. Humiliation is one of the tools for discipline against religious arrogance as it is a medicine guaranteed to instil humility in a person. If you want people to be tolerant and humble towards people of other faiths they have to be pounded into submission. That is how government officials in Imperial China were kept in line. They were beaten into obedience!!!

One should never be too proud to kow tow.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

One should never be too proud to kow tow.

And yet we spend our lives being taught not to.

Does anyone feel that arrogance simply comes with a belief in being right? We have to accept that religion is a circular discussion. G-d says we are right, because our Book says so, G-d wrote our Book, therefore it must be right.

If this is where the arrogance comes from then is there any way to combat it, as our belief in G-d and our Prophet, is a must to be a faithful follower? Sounds like a catch 22 to me.

Just to put the cat among the pigeons. Did G-d Himself create this problem by giving us more than one Prophet or is it a human failing, because we are unable to do as we are told and arrogance makes us twist the word of G-d to 'confirm' how right we are?

[LeoSalinas22]

hi muslim,

Just to put the cat among the pigeons. Did G-d Himself create this problem by giving us more than one Prophet or is it a human failing, because we are unable to do as we are told and arrogance makes us twist the word of G-d to 'confirm' how right we are?

i think it is a human failing. what are your thoughts on the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11 1-9? its a similar situation don't you think? verse 6 stands out the most:

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

hope it makes sense. peace be upon you...

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

hope it makes sense. peace be upon you...

wa aleykum salaam Leo

Thank you, I had to go and look up the whole thing. I can see why in this story G-d would change the tongues of men but how then could those men receive the true message of G-d, sent in the scriptures but only in one language?

[elme]

The story about the Tower of Babel reminds me of a speech the Imam made at my wedding with my Christian family in the audience. He quoted the verse from the Scripture and explained that it is, in fact, a blessing. It teaches and challenges us to bridge gaps between different schools of thought. It should reap tolerance and understanding.It encourages humility and an awareness that we all love the very same thing. Peace and harmony and freedom to fulfill our pure spiritual desire.When people want to 'be right' and dictate 'an only way' then I think that they're not living true to the message of the given Word. I really think that it's about being honest . . . with yourself. How can arrogance even be a virtue of the pious ... ? Get real. Dig deep and listen to the common sense God gave us. And consult the Scriptures without an agenda .... it is not a legal manual to be referred to to win on technicalities .... Truly, this is what i see sometimes, alot!

But Im tired of typing now ... ask if you are not clear on what I just said or disagree or if you need elaboration. I have to design a few pages now ...

peace and light and love love love