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| Abrahamic Religions Neutral discussion area for topics that cross-over between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. |
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#1 (permalink) |
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Interfaith
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 77
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Who is "The Adversary" and is it a real entity?
One of the debates in Christianity is whether there is actually a being called "Satan" - or "The Adversary" - or is it a generic term for evil in the world.
a verse on point is: Luke 22:1 And the feast of the unleavened food was coming nigh, that is called Passover, Luke 22:2 and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they may take him up, for they were afraid of the people. Luke 22:3 >> And the Adversary entered into Judas, who is surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve, Luke 22:4 and he, having gone away, spake with the chief priests and the magistrates, how he might deliver him up to them, Luke 22:5 and they rejoiced, and covenanted to give him money, ______________________- So, before Judas agreed to betray Jesus... did a supernatural being take possession of him and force him to act in this way? Or am I misreading this? |
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#2 (permalink) |
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Soul Rebel
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Highlands of Scotland
Posts: 4,604
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Interesting point. It's also a point of note that if it was requierd that Jesus be crucified, then would there really need to be an adversary to YHWH?
Or is Judas betraying Jesus really a big trick that YHWH played on "the adversary", to ensure "the adversary" was defeated?? I think the first clear reference to "the adversary" was in the Book of Job - as a prosecutor of Man, rather than an opposer of God. And, so far as I can tell, the Book of Job is never intended to be a literal historical work either, but instead a parable. |
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#3 (permalink) |
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Interfaith
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 77
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This question came up in a discussion of Mel Gibson's "The Passion," described as a serious attempt to put the Gospel account on film.
So, it seems to be that the Devil (Satan) has a speaking role and would appear as.... what? (This is Young's Literal from biola's unbound bible) Luke 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, turned back from the Jordan, and was brought in the Spirit to the wilderness, forty days being tempted by the Devil, and he did not eat anything in those days, and they having been ended, he afterward hungered, Luke 4:3 >> the Devil said to him, 'If Son thou art of God, speak to this stone that it may become bread.' Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, 'It hath been written, that, not on bread only shall man live, but on every saying of God.' Luke 4:5 And the Devil having brought him up to an high mountain, shewed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, Luke 4:6 and the Devil said to him, 'To thee I will give all this authority, and their glory, because to me it hath been delivered, and to whomsoever I will, I do give it; Luke 4:7 thou, then, if thou mayest bow before me -- all shall be thine.' Luke 4:8 And Jesus answering him said, 'Get thee behind me, Adversary, for it hath been written, Thou shalt bow before the Lord thy God, and Him only thou shalt serve.' Luke 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and >> the Devil said to Jesus, 'If the Son thou art of God, cast thyself down hence, for it hath been written -- To His messengers He will give charge concerning thee, to guard over thee, and -- On hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou mayest dash against a stone thy foot.' Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said to him -- 'It hath been said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.' Luke 4:13 And having ended all temptation, the Devil departed from him till a convenient season. Luke 4:14 And Jesus turned back in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and a fame went forth through all the region round about concerning him, |
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#4 (permalink) |
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New Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8
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I don't understand the debate. As you posted in the book of Luke, as well as in other books, Jesus was tempted, and spoken to, by a real entity, the devil. So it boils down to "is the bible factual or fantasy?" For if you are to believe the words of the bible, it answers your question. And if you are not to believe the words, it answers your question.. (well kind of)
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#5 (permalink) | |
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Interfaith
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 77
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Quote:
I was more curious about.... well, in Christian homes with small children, when the parents read these passages and the children ask, "Did Jesus really talk to Satan?", how do the parents answer? Personally, it took me a very long time before i caught on, and decided it was "okay" not to believe that Satan really exists. Because all the pressure from - well, almost everyone - never to acknowledge the possibility to children that anything in the Bible might not be literally true. |
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#6 (permalink) |
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Soul Rebel
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Highlands of Scotland
Posts: 4,604
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Sounds like you've been growing up in a pressured environment - which quite explains why you have developed fairly strong convictions.
Always a little hard for myself to understand, as the UK is generally so moderate. |
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#7 (permalink) | |
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Interfaith
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 77
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Quote:
I've read what the Bible says. Thought I might be missing something, that there was another explanation that isn't obvious. Such as, Jesus wandering through desert for 40 days before he talks to Adversary, so it might be a heat delirium thing. To you, the answer might seem obvious. To someone who isn't familiar with... OK, let me think of an example. When the Hebrew God YHWH says, "You shall have no other gods before me," does that mean there are other gods? |
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#8 (permalink) | |
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: London, UK, Malkhut she'be'Assiyah
Posts: 1,444
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as in all translations...
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"BeNeI ELoHIM" are sometimes referred to - usually understood by traditional jews as "celestial beings" - as opposed to angels, which are a whole different thing altogether - covering, basically, anything else there is floating around which isn't a human or an angel. the idea being that the Divine Is infinite, indivisible, etc. however, it is generally understood as per the explanation of thinkers such as the RaMBa"M (maimonides) that the reason idolatry started was that people started worshipping things which were perceived to be intermediaries to the Divine out of a desire to take spiritual shortcuts, if you see what i mean, rather than doing the hard work of coping with the Infinite Divine, which can be pretty hard to conceptualise, let alone have an intimate relationship with, hence the need for spiritual intermediaries. in other words, it's about a laudable desire diverted towards an unworthy end. either way, they're *not*, repeat not a pantheon of rival gods. G!D, as far as we are concerned, doesn't have competition. finally, when the text of the Torah or Tenach commands "YOU" to do something, it's talking to *us*, the jews. it's our Law! there are only seven commandments that *all* humans are obliged to obey (the so-called "noachide laws") and if you're a normal, reasonable human being you are undoubtedly carrying them out anyway, like when you, during the course of your everyday life, refrain from murdering people and stealing stuff. and this particular commandment is one that is especially applicable to us. like muslims, we are not allowed to consider anything but G!D as being worthy of worship. when these statements get universally applied out of context all sorts of stupidity occurs. b'shalom bananabrain |
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#9 (permalink) | |
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Interfaith
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 77
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Quote:
That's one opinion. And a different opinion is that the OT was composed of books written by men who were separated by centuries in time, and their idea of "God" or "Elohim" actually changed over time. At one time, in some books, Elohim was one God among many, and not even the most important one. So when the text refers to "celestial beings" - it means something quite different than the accepted "faith" explanation today. In the OT, there's a book about JOB, Job 1:1 A man there hath been in the land of Uz -- Job his name -- and that man hath been perfect and upright -- both fearing God, and turning aside from evil. Job 1:3 and his substance is seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred pairs of oxen, and five hundred she-asses, _____________ I don't know if owning 7,000 sheep and 3,000 camels impresses anyone today, but... the action switches to what I take to be a throne room, where the God YHWH has a conversation with his sons... ______________ Job 1:6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by YHWH, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst. Job 1:7 And YHWH saith unto the Adversary, 'Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth YHWH and saith, 'From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it.' Job 1:8 And YHWH saith unto the Adversary, 'Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?' Job 1:9 And the Adversary answereth YHWH and saith, 'For nought is Job fearing God? Job 1:10 Hast not Thou made a hedge for him, and for his house, and for all that he hath -- round about? Job 1:11 The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath -- if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!' Job 1:12 And YHWH saith unto the Adversary, 'Lo, all that he hath [is] in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of YHWH. ______________ IMO, one of the most interesting parts of Bible research is discovering how the concepts changed over time. Translation is Young's Literal from Unbound Bible at Biola: www.biola.edu ____________________ There are several options, including a Transliterated Hebrew: Job 1:6 vyhy hyvm vyb'v bny h'lhym lhty&b jl-yhvh vybv' gm-hs+n btvkm. Job 1:6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by YHWH, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst. Job 1:7 vy'mr yhvh 'l-hs+n m'yn tb' vyjn hs+n 't-yhvh vy'mr msv+ b'r& vmhthlk bh. ___________________ So, one of the words is translated into English as yhvh and another one is hyvm, and from this, we're supposed to draw the conclusion that the author actually had credible information about a conversation God had with the Adversary... so, my original question, what is The Adversary???? My hunch, suspicion, off the cuff guess, is that there was a series of stories about YHWH and The Adversary, so that the people who read Job already knew who the characters were. And we only get a chapter from the middle. |
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#10 (permalink) | ||
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: London, UK, Malkhut she'be'Assiyah
Posts: 1,444
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ahem....
there's no need for you to try and patronise me or quote big chunks at me - references will do fine; i have the texts at hand. i know all about the documentary hypothesis, wellhausen et al. (and the unbound bible, which is a great site and one i use all the time) they certainly don't need *my* help. the opinions i am referring to are those held by many of the people coming at it from a *traditional* jewish perspective, in which Torah (as opposed to the OT) was given at sinai and remains unchanged to this day as far as we are concerned.
i am simply pointing out that these are not opinions you are likely to have access to unless you live in the traditionally observant jewish community, as i do. the DH is a theory (in other words, an opinion) that originates in the academic categories derived from a priori greek philosophical thought - which is contemporaneous with but often predated by jewish religious thought. i'm just trying to give a perspective that will allow people to appreciate how this text is used by the people it was given to and continue to attempt to live by it to this day. and, if you'll pardon me, taking the approach of jumping straight into a translation like this and extrapolating without reference to context is rather like making assumptions about the family of an engine designer from reading a manual about an engine he designed. this just isn't how the text is designed to be read. it's not linear, it's not european and you're looking at *a translation of the lecture notes*, not hearing the lecture. now, it is entirely possible that you could use the cliff notes to speculate about the family life of charles dickens, but better to actually know the family and read, say, 'bleak house' in its socio-political (or, in this case, religious) context. anyway, the problematic verses you are talking about are naturally not unknown to the traditional commentators - but it is axiomatic to us that G!D Is One and that where you see references to 'bene elohim' it cannot possibly mean "sons of G!D"! biblical hebrew of whatever period simply *cannot* be read in the way you suggest without doing violence to both its context and its grammar - let alone its intent. the language itself contains many ways of referring to the Divine, both direct and indirect. i was thinking about this particular argument during morning prayers today and came across the following phrase from psalm 82: "ANI AMaRTI ELoHIM ATeM: UBNeI 'ELYON CuLCheM: ACHeN KeADaM TeMoTOuN: U'Cha'AKhaD HaSaRIM TiPoLOu:" usually translated something along the lines of: "I Said that you are like the celestial beings and like all higher beings, but you shall die like adam and fall like one of the princes". but what you are failing to understand is a set of three categories, where G!D Is at the top, humanity is at the bottom and there is an *intermediate* category inbetween of enlightened or 'higher' beings. this parallels the demarcation of mt. sinai in exodus ch.19 (and, if you agree with mary douglas, the subsequent threefold division in the sacrificial animals, but that's another argument) but the important thing about it is that the second category is one which humans can ascend to (as moses and aaron both do at sinai) but cannot be maintained without the appropriate level of spiritual development - which even the "princes" (ie those who find themselves by default in this elevated category) cannot always maintain. for example, adam was in this category by default, but he became mortal, with all its implications of work and suffering and pleasure. now *angels*, in jewish thought, are an *entirely separate category*, of which Ha-SaTaN, the "adversary", is one. they are not some kind of higher being, but a restricted, limited being, almost like a machine. they have no free will (or knees, or thumbs, or nadgers, incidentally) and can only carry out the job that they were assigned, which, in the case of ha-satan, is essentially to be the D.A.'s office, or DPP if you're a brit. you cannot be accused of anything you haven't actually done and you cannot be tricked - all that ha-satan can do is report upon the revelation of your inner nature through your behaviour. Quote:
actually, the truest thing you've said so far is this: Quote:
now, of course, if you want to ignore traditional opinions and construct a straw man, you are free to do so, but don't try to make out that it's somehow more authoritative for being modern or academic, totally ripped out of its context or the fact that you know nothing about biblical hebrew. i'm sure a CD doesn't make a great deal of sense if you haven't got a CD player and will end up being used as a coaster. b'shalom bananabrain |
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#11 (permalink) | |
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Interfaith
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 77
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Quote:
This certainly is the best answer I've ever received to this particular question. Bear with me for pulling out certain points... the sheer # of words in this tiny reply window is a bit baffling at times. I've seen the term "angels" described as less correct than "Messengers" - is that what you're talking about? These restricted, limited beings that have no free will and can only carry out the job they were assigned??? Moving on, is it correct that there was a "rebellion" in heaven where 1/3 of the messengers followed some kind of a leader and were thrown out of heaven? Or is that a mis-reading? Or is it New Testament and not part of your tradition? What about exorcism and possession? The "unclean spirits" (pneumas) that Jesus encountered? Are they only doing a job they've been assigned? __________ By the way, because this is a message board, I included the link to biola as a courtesy to people who might read this without posting. Didn't mean to talk down to you. Just adding a few hints for the others. |
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#12 (permalink) |
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Soul Rebel
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Highlands of Scotland
Posts: 4,604
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I've taken the liberty of taking the question about angels as a quote to a new thread about the subject - this is an area that may be far better addressed in its own specific topic:
Angels |
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#13 (permalink) | |||
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: London, UK, Malkhut she'be'Assiyah
Posts: 1,444
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angelololology
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b'shalom bananabrain |
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#14 (permalink) | |
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Interfaith
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 77
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I had an e-mail from Brian asking me not to describe Christianity as a con game or Jesus as a fraud any more. But I don't see how, in good conscience, I can respond to your post without using my brain. This stuff about "evil spirits like lility" floating around the place, and souls without bodies which must be encouraged to move on... ...it never worries you that someone might be making this stuff up? The problem - the HUGE problem - is that "religion" in all its forms has the power to keep people from asking the right questions. |
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#15 (permalink) | |||||
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: London, UK, Malkhut she'be'Assiyah
Posts: 1,444
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heh
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b'shalom bananabrain |
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