Who is Jesus?

[RubySera_Martin]

I am finding that there are many different explanations among Christians to explain who Jesus was or is. Some of the names he is called are: Son of God (on a more holy level than other humans), Messiah, Saviour, Lord, the Christ. It seems different Christians attach different meanings to these titles. I cannot accept the theology about Jesus I was raised with but I wonder if there is a Christian theology out there around who Jesus is that I can accept.

Here is what I was raised with and why I cannot accept it:

I was raised with the belief that humans owed God payment for their offenses against God, but humans were so sinful and could never pay for their redemption. Therefore, Jesus came and died on the cross to set us free, to "open heaven's gates," as the children's song Jesus Loves Me says, to pay for our sin, to redeem us from the clutches of Satan who was holding us hostage. I could never understand how these things were accomplished by Jesus' death.

Also, it made no sense to me that God could not forgive sinners who repented and said sorry. I, as a human, had to forgive many people many times even when they insisted they never did anything wrong. It seemed so horrendous that an almighty God could not forgive unless someone died a cruel death when I as a mere mortal could do so.

Nor does it make sense to me that sin can be paid for. Even if it could, what could Jesus' dead body have to do with it? How does a material or physical body translate into spiritual gain with God or with human souls?

Besides, I have not been able to see that humans are intentionally evil. I know that humans, myself included, are fallible and prone to error and serious mistakes and bad decisions. But not intentional evil. Even the most horrendous things humans do seems right to them at the time; thus I do not see it as intentional evil or sin.

Thus, I don't think there is any sin to be paid for by anyone. Responsible human beings will correct their mistakes as they go, as they are able. Irresponsible humans beings will probably be especially irresponsible if they think their sins have been paid for by Jesus.

Those are the main reasons I cannot accept what I was raised with. But I get the impression on here and in conversation with other Christians that there are other meanings for terms like atonement and Messiah that are different, and perhaps there is something out there that I can buy into or accept. I would be interested in what some of these meanings are if people are willing to share.

Ruby

[Virtual_Cliff]

Many other people including theologians share your misgivings, Ruby. I have recently read "The Powers That Be" by Walter Wink. Briefly, he describes how across the world we have been in thrall to a mythology based on violence and domination. Jesus, he says, came to show by his death that this way of life was wrong. In this way his aim was to set us free from the bondage of this way of being, to liberate us into a life based on giving and sharing. This is a terrible summary and I recommend reading the book, as it's an excellent read.

VC

[wil]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

... I, as a human, had to forgive many people many times even when they insisted they never did anything wrong....

Being made in the image of G-d allows this forgiveness than it must also be in the creator...

As usual great contemplation.

In my understanding

Jesus - Son of Man, human, son of Mary and Joseph

Jesus Christ - Son of G-d, G-d incarnate on Earth

Christed Jesus - the understanding of his oneness with the father and all.

Christ - The higher self of us all....something to strive for and understand.

Messiah, Saviour - one who has shown us the light of our path

and

Ruby - Daughter of Man, human, daughter of _________ and __________

Ruby Christ - a child of G-d, an expression of G-d on earth

Ruby the Christ or Christed Ruby - when she understands her oneness with the creator as created and creator of what is manifest

and...

and...

We are all children of G-d...brothers and sisters of Jesus, striving to attain our Christ nature, striving to see the Christ nature in everyone...and understanding oneness...as our elder brother and wayshower told us could be...

Now this is my view, anyone may disagree of course, but what Ruby has asked for is...

What is your view?

(never ceases to amaze me that many folks seem to feel the only way to accentuate their view is to denegrate others)

[AletheiaRivers]

Great post Ruby. I'm not sure where to start. Let's see ...


Regarding atonement theology - payment to an angry God.

As I understand it, this was actually not the original view of the Church. The Eastern Orthodox church doesn't hold this view, and you can't get much more "orthodox" than them. The early church held to a "Christus Victor" interpretation (of which there are variations). It was with the Protestant reformers that "satisfaction atonement" (the payment for sin) entered into the equation.

My personal belief is that "the powers that be" put Jesus to death, but that God showed that death is not the final end through the resurrection. Ultimately we can conquer the "rulers of this world," no matter what they do to us.

Regarding God forgiving us of our debts -

I believe this absolutely. In Matt 18:22, Jesus tells Peter to forgive his brother seventy times seven. He then goes on to illustrate with the parable of the master and the servant the need to forgive without payment:

Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.

When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.

And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.

So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, "Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything."

And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.

But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, “Pay what you owe.”

So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, "Have patience with me, and I will pay you." He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.

When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place.

Then his master summoned him and said to him, "You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?”

And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.

So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.

Regarding humans being intentionally evil -

Original sin as a defect that is passed down to all humankind as some sort of flaw is Augustine's interpretation. Again, Eastern Orthodoxy (pretty much uninfluenced by Augustine) does not view it that way.

Plus, I also don't believe that is what the Genesis story is telling us.

Regarding sin in general -

The word sin, in Greek, is hamartia. It means "missing the mark." It is an archery term for aiming towards a target. So "to sin" means that we miss the target. The question is - what target are we to be aiming for?

I think the only target that we are to be aiming for is God. From time to time we wander off that path. We get sidetracked. Repentance means to reorient ourselves towards that target.

The other confusing issue is that the word in Greek that means "debt" is often translated "sin." They are two totally different words, with different meaning. And neither word means "total depravity" or evil.

This is probably way too long already, so I'll stop here for now.

[Jeannot]

Good question, Ruby. Here's my take:

IS THE WORLD REDEEMED?

Not yet, anyway.

In CONSTANTINE’S SWORD, James Carroll writes, “What if Constantine and Anselm and all those who, following them, have gilded the cross, turning it into a symbol of triumphalism, are in understandable but mistaken flight from the more evident meaning of the cross—that the world remains unredeemed?”

Whose fault is it if the world is not redeemed? Certainly not Jesus’s. It’s ours. Our failure to take up our cross and follow him. Peter says we are to share the sufferings of Christ. (1 Peter 4:13)

Judaism taught that we should forgive our enemies seven times a day. This wasn’t enough for Jesus, who said it should be seventy times seven. He wasn’t playing with numbers, but making the point that forgive has to be perpetual, constant. Why? Because we are just as bad ourselves, and in constant need of forgiveness. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” If we want forgiveness, we must forgive. “If you greet only your brothers, wht more you doing than the others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matt 5:47-8)

IOW, we are not to be like the Gentiles, but like Jesus to remain Jews, with their devotion to God and to social justice—but Jews whose circumcision is of the heart. (Deut 10:16; Jeremiah 4:4)

When John the Baptist first saw Jesus, he had a moment of recognitiion. He said to those around him, “Look! There’s the Lamb of God, taking upon himelf the sin of the world.” In line with what Carroll said, this passage is often—usually, in fact—mistranslated as “There’s the Lamb of God, taking AWAY the sin of the world.” But has anyone noticed that the sin of the world has not been taken away? If you doubt this, just pick up today’s paper and read it.

Jesus was one person. One person, no matter how divine, cannot take away the sin of the world. That would take ALL persons to accomplish. St Paul tells us that Jesus is “the firstborn of the dead.” Jesus rose to show us the way, but like the apostles, we have run from the cross. But there can be no Easter Sunday without there first being a Good Friday—for each of us.

In a meditation on Original Sin, Cardinal Newman refers to “the heart-piercing, reason-bewildering fact of this world in its length and breadth.” And he concludes that since God exists, then the world must be involved in “some terrible, aboriginal calamity.”

“Work while there is yet light, since the night is coming in which no man can work.” As the letter to the Hebrews says, “We have here no lasting city.”

My task is not to save myself, but to save the world. How can I be saved unless the world is? Why would I even want to be saved if my brothers and sisters are not? I am weak and fallible, and so are they. “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Matt 16:25)

Jesus tells us, “Be ye perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” To be close to God, we have to be like God. And Jesus put this in the context of forgiveness. We must learn to forgive as God forgives. And not to judge, as though we were somehow superior to our brothers and sisters.

Taking up our cross requires more than saying “Jesus is Lord”—a lot more. If you think acknowledging Jesus as Lord is enough, the Jesus has some scary words for you:

“Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter.

“Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?

“And then I will declare to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.” (Matt 7:21ff)

Prophecy is not enough. Casting out demons is not enough. Working miracles is not enough. They may be the trimmings of religion, but the meat and potatoes was expressed in Judaism in the summing up of the 10 Commandments. This summing up reduced them to two, the first of which is the “Shema Yisrael,” which sums up the first three commandments:

“Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God (Adonai Elohim) with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your might.” (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)

The last seven commandments are summed up in Leviticus 18:18: “you shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

There were and still are some Jewish scholars who are willing to grant that Jesus was the greatest of all rabbis (teachers). And he was because he cut to the heart of what was important in the Law. For example, in Mark 12:28, one of the scribes is impressed by how Jesus answered the Sadducees. The scribe asks Jesus what is important, and Jesus responds with the “Duologue,” the two main commandments quoted above. Then the scribe adds, as a Gemara (commentary):

“Right, Teacher, you have truly said “He is God, and beside Him there is no other. And to love him with all your heart, etc, and to love your neighbor as yourself is much more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Jesus in turn commends the scribe, and tells him that he is “not far from the Kingdom of God.”

(Luke has a little different version of this exchange, in which it is the scribe who quotes the Duologue) Apparently, this was a common formula in Judaism.

And for the punch line, so to speak, we have Matthew 25:31-46, in which people who visit others in prison, tend the sick, give to the needy, are surprised to find out that what they’ve been doing they’ve been doing for Jesus: “Inasmuch as you have done it for the least of these my brothers, you have done it for me.”

And in Luke 14:13-14, Jesus says, “When you give a party, invite the poor, the crippled, the blind—and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

All of this seems to back up James’ point that faith without works is dead. Faith alone is insufficient. It is through our works of mercy that our sins are covered. James concludes his letter by saying:

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

And Peter simply says, “Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.” And in a famous encomium, Paul says “there are three things that last: faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love.” IOW, Luther was wrong that faith alone saves. Love trumps faith.
______________

Albert Schweitzer was one of the German “higher critics” that is, one who approached the Bible from the standpoint of literary criticism. As such, he was certainly no inerrantist or literalist; he did not believe that the Bible was infallible.

But more shockingly, he believe that Jesus himself could be mistaken about certain things. Schweitzer thought, for example, that Jesus was wrong about when the world would end, and that he expected it to occur during his liftime or shortly thereafter. (See Matt 10:23)

And yet Schweitzer believe that Jesus knew what mattered most; that he spoke with authority, authority from God. So deeply did Schweitzer believe this that when he was in his thrities, he studied medicine not to make a lucrative career of it, but to become a medical missionary in the jungle of Africa. He dedicated he life to Jesus, and spent it in the service of his fellow man, specifically, his fellow black men. Schweitzer was a Mensch.

The point is, that it is not important whether or not you believe that the Bible is inerrant or infallible. You can believe, like Schweitzer, that it is in error on certain things, but that it gets right what is most important. That Jesus sums up for his fellow Jews, and for the rest of us, what is required: tikkun olam—the redemption of the world.

[Dondi]

I had posted this on another forum board, having to do with the concept of Hell, but I think that it bears some relation to the topic here about Jesus, especially in regards to AletheiaRivers' comments about "missing the mark" in regards to sin in general:

The hope for Christians is that one day after death, we will be like Christ in heaven, where everything is perfected: our bodies, our souls, our minds. And the only indication we have of this is the picture of Christ after the resurrection as presented in the Gospels. He was able to appear and disappear to the disciples on a number of occasions and even had the ability to eat fish and honey. And with the promise of no more pain, no more tears, no more fear, no more hunger, and no more thirst, it would seem that our bodies will be transformed to a state of perfect bliss by the power and presences of God's Spirit, which is the embodiedment of perfect love.

Conversely, and I would have no idea why one would want to, but apparently there will be people who reject the offer of God's love, whether out of pride, or hate for God, any number of reasons. (But I, for one, do not believe it will be out of ignorance, I believe in the end that people will have a conscious choice in the matter). What is the state of these people? Well, if God's Spirit is able to transform believers into a blissfull state, then those who do not get transformed, by choice, will not experience perfection. They are basically on their own . The absence of God's Spirit in the life of those without God would suggest that in their final state, they will experience pain, hunger, thirst, tears, and fear, in direct opposition to those who are in God's Presence. For they are probably relying on their own human strength to maintain some sort of life without God. Perhaps when initially in that state upon arrival to the other side, it won't be so bad, but as time and eternity move on, their state away from God will also progress so that all their wants will never seem to be satisfied. Much like the sex addict who progresses further and further into stronger means of satisfying himself and each time needing to be more until he becomes an animal.

Why do we view babies and little children as innocent? Because they are the closest to purity of the human beings that we can see. That's just how they start out. They are so cute and cuddly. but i wonder how many of these babies that we are so fond of become the sicko child molesters or murderers of tomorrow. Child molesters and murderers that flood our jails were once cuddly babies too, you ever think about that. The point is that somewhere along the line, these babies got off track. Some sort of progression occurred, perhaps over a long period of time, that turned them toward these evil tendancies, for whatever reason. In fact, we all end up with our little vices that we wish we could get rid of. Most of us are able to maintain and control these vices through our upbringing, being surrounded a stable environment by friends, family, religion, and culture. But we can only maintain that control to the degree that our influences can keep us from straying so far, even then, in our human frailness, we slip up at times.

Religion only points the way. I believe it is God's Spirit that must be encountered in order to be freed from our sinful tendancies. If we are to progress toward perfection in our own soul or spirit, we have to have that Source of perfection that will lead us there. God is our benchmark. Jesus is the prime example of living according to God's benchmark. Without a benchmark, we will only be able to measure against ourselves. In that case, we will not only be NOT perfect, but that measurement in which we measure ourselves become more and more inaccurate as time goes on.

Why do we have institutions that maintain standards of weights and measurements? Why do we calibrate sensitive equipment? To make sure that we are accurate. If we never calibrate our wristwatches to the correct time, then we will slowly digress farther and farther from the true time. In terms of eternity, one can see that it won't take relatively long before our wristwatch would be useless.

In human terms, without the standard of God's Love to maintain us, we will digress slowly toward our own uselessness and destruction. To me, that is a fate that is likened to hell. What kind of maniac will your pet sin turn you into over the millenia?

Now whether one would have the ability to choose God after death, I would have to say that I would think that if the Presence and Power of God were available, then it would be possible to cry out to the Lord for help. I dunno. But I would think that as time went on, it would get harder and harder to choose, much like for the alcoholic or heroin addict to seek help under their powerful addiction. Or the sex addicts under their consuming lust. Would one want to seek God when these moments of pleasure seem so enticing in an unregenerative state in the afterlife? Would they have the ability to choose? Or would their addiction eat them up to the point where they can no longer choose? How much worse would their state be after thousands of years, or millions of years? Would you even recognize them as human?

I would hope that people will have the option to choose God after death. But just as God created us with the ability of choice, it would be solely up to the individual to seek God. You should know that you cannot help an alcoholic unless he wants to be helped, right?

In terms of Christ, we look to His example here on earth so that we might emulate Him in the power of God's Spirit. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man comes to the Father except by Him, because God expects us to live according to His example of perfection, for it is God's Spirit that will enable us to do so, both here and hereafter. Sin might have been atoned for by Christ, but it is far more important to know for what end the sacrifice was made. And that is that sin will destroy if it is not completely dealt with. God's grace is greater than sin, but that grace does not good unless it affects change on the person.

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Religion only points the way. I believe it is God's Spirit that must be encountered in order to be freed from our sinful tendancies. If we are to progress toward perfection in our own soul or spirit, we have to have that Source of perfection that will lead us there. God is our benchmark. Jesus is the prime example of living according to God's benchmark. Without a benchmark, we will only be able to measure against ourselves. In that case, we will not only be NOT perfect, but that measurement in which we measure ourselves become more and more inaccurate as time goes on.

Very well put and I totally agree.

Perhaps the only wording I would change would be the underlined portion above (and that is only semantics).

"I believe it is God's Spirit that must be encountered in order to be led towards the target."

I know I can't do it on my own.

[mee]

who is Jesus? Jesus is preeminently and uniquely the Christ, the Son of the living God. matthew16:16;
The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58)
Jesus is"the firstborn of all creation," "the beginning of the creation by God." (Col 1:15; Re 1:1; 3:14) the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God’s first creation, his firstborn Son.
Jesus Christ came to the earth "to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many," and this opened the way to redeem mankind.—Matthew 20:28.
The ransom, the belief that Jesus died in exchange for sinful mankind, is fundamental to true Christianity. Yet, the doctrine has long been subject to criticism and ridicule by Christendom’s theologians.

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I am finding that there are many different explanations ...to explain who Jesus was or is. Some of the names he is called are: Son of God (on a more holy level than other humans), Messiah, Saviour, Lord, the Christ. ....I cannot accept the theology about Jesus I was raised with but I wonder if there is a Christian theology out there around who Jesus is that I can accept.

I would have sent a post explaining my view on the subject,as I think that I am a true follower of Jesus yet I am not a Christian, if it would have not been restricted to the Christanity board and the Christians only.Such great personalities are a common treasure of humanity,the only restriction should be of truth and the point of view is presented in a polite way and with aruguments. May be the differences could be resolved that way.
Thanks

[RubySera_Martin]

Thank you, everyone, for your contributions. There are some profound insights posted here. It is so good to have scripture explained in a different way. Many of the verses quoted are the very ones I had learned long ago to support the theology I described above. Seeing them reinterpreted for a very different view is so refreshing. To answer my own question on anther thread re how to know which interpretation to accept, I think the bottom line for me is that it has to agree with reality as I experience it, or as humans generally experience it. To find out how other humans experience life I have read many novels and online discussions, plus talked with people and listened to lectures.

I forget who it was, maybe Jeanot, referred to Lev. 18:18 for the verse to "love your neighbour as yourself." I looked up Lev. 18:18 and it said not to marry one's wife's sister while the wife is still alive. I think there must be a mistake in the reference. I think that verse is in the Gospels, but I didn't know it was in the OT, which is why I looked it up. It did not sound like a Leviticus law to me.

Anyway, thanks for responding. And inhumility, I personally am very interested in a Muslim's view of who Jesus is and how it fits into your life. I'm not sure where the "lines of the law" fall on this forum but I think it should be allowable if it is given in an attempt to help Christians understand their own religion. I think if we Christians reject "outsiders'" views on Christianity we are cutting our own throats by way of unacceptable pride and arrogance. That is my personal opinion (and also the opinion of some professional Christian theologians I know) and it may not be acceptable to the moderators. Feel free to send me a private message if that seems better.

Ruby

[flowperson]

Wil:

I am inspired by your post and your explanation of the oneness that Jesus came here to demonstrate to us. Were that it was possible to live up to the example that He left for us each day. But I still, for some reason, think of Him most often as "Son of Man" as I believe that this name, that He used most often for himself, imparts more of the mystery that He left behind for us to think about and discuss.

To me it implies time travel and genetic engineering, but that's probably because I've always been a large fan of SciFi.

flow....

[Dondi]

Off by one chapter, Ruby:

" 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD." - Leviticus 19:18

It also appears as the second greatest commandment in Matthew 22:39 and Mark 12:31 and as the "royal law" in James 2:8.

Interestingly, it is also the answer to inheriting eternal life according to Luke 10:25-28:

"On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Both these commandments are my life's verses, BTW.

[Jeannot]

Thanks, Dondi. Yes, it's Lev 19:18.

Leviticus also says in Ch 19: Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard. YOu shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger...

You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of a hired man are not to remain with you all night until morning.. . . .

As I said, the "Duologue" seemed to be in common use in Jesus' time.

BTW, Leviticus also, in Chap 25. provides for the Jubilee year and the forgiveness of debts.

Also, verse 23 in Ch 25 says, "The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine." (in one of the psalms it says "The earth is the LOrd's and the fulness thereof.")

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I am finding that there are many different explanations among Christians to explain who Jesus was or is. Some of the names he is called are: Son of God (on a more holy level than other humans), Messiah, Saviour, Lord, the Christ. It seems different Christians attach different meanings to these titles. I cannot accept the theology about Jesus I was raised with but I wonder if there is a Christian theology out there around who Jesus is that I can accept.

Here is what I was raised with and why I cannot accept it:

I was raised with the belief that humans owed God payment for their offenses against God, but humans were so sinful and could never pay for their redemption. Therefore, Jesus came and died on the cross to set us free, to "open heaven's gates," as the children's song Jesus Loves Me says, to pay for our sin, to redeem us from the clutches of Satan who was holding us hostage. I could never understand how these things were accomplished by Jesus' death.

Also, it made no sense to me that God could not forgive sinners who repented and said sorry. I, as a human, had to forgive many people many times even when they insisted they never did anything wrong. It seemed so horrendous that an almighty God could not forgive unless someone died a cruel death when I as a mere mortal could do so.

Nor does it make sense to me that sin can be paid for. Even if it could, what could Jesus' dead body have to do with it? How does a material or physical body translate into spiritual gain with God or with human souls?

Besides, I have not been able to see that humans are intentionally evil. I know that humans, myself included, are fallible and prone to error and serious mistakes and bad decisions. But not intentional evil. Even the most horrendous things humans do seems right to them at the time; thus I do not see it as intentional evil or sin.

Thus, I don't think there is any sin to be paid for by anyone. Responsible human beings will correct their mistakes as they go, as they are able. Irresponsible humans beings will probably be especially irresponsible if they think their sins have been paid for by Jesus.

Those are the main reasons I cannot accept what I was raised with. But I get the impression on here and in conversation with other Christians that there are other meanings for terms like atonement and Messiah that are different, and perhaps there is something out there that I can buy into or accept. I would be interested in what some of these meanings are if people are willing to share.

Ruby

In the old testament, unblemished lambs were used as sacrifices to God to attone for the sins of a man. If the sacrifice was made with a contrite heart, the aroma from the burnt sacrifice became pleasing to God.

Subsequently another situation occured in the old testament that appears to have been a precursur for things to come; Abraham obeying God and taking his son Issac up the mountain to be sacrificed to God. It was a test of faith for Abraham, and a test of bravery for Issac. Abraham loved God so much that he was willing to give his son in sacrifice. God stopped him and provided a real lamb, then blessed Abraham and "all the nations of the earth"

John in the New testament states "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son..."

"But why? Because He loved us, and gave Himself up in our place. There is no why concerning God's love, it is a free gift. It is the only love in the world that is truly and totally free. It is the only love that asks nothing for itself.

And Jesus died for us because He loved us. He willingly died for our trespasses and was raised for our justification. (Romans 4: 25)."

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[OzAndy]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I was raised with the belief that humans owed God payment for their offenses against God, but humans were so sinful and could never pay for their redemption. Therefore, Jesus came and died on the cross to set us free, to "open heaven's gates," as the children's song Jesus Loves Me says, to pay for our sin, to redeem us from the clutches of Satan who was holding us hostage. I could never understand how these things were accomplished by Jesus' death.

Also, it made no sense to me that God could not forgive sinners who repented and said sorry. I, as a human, had to forgive many people many times even when they insisted they never did anything wrong. It seemed so horrendous that an almighty God could not forgive unless someone died a cruel death when I as a mere mortal could do so.

Nor does it make sense to me that sin can be paid for. Even if it could, what could Jesus' dead body have to do with it? How does a material or physical body translate into spiritual gain with God or with human souls?

Ruby

Dear Ruby and all,

There are whole books written on the subjects you raise....

I guess for me I understand the atonement in Christianity being about Jesus being an obedient human on behalf of us - "He who knew no sin became sin in order that we might become the righteousness/goodness of God." As anothther poster pointed out sin is about missing the mark not about being evil. In that sense Jesus is the only one who hits the bull's eye dead centre. In this sense Jesus' death is not so much about a bloody sacrifice but about God really taking on what it means to be a human being. Being human means dying... Jesus by becoming one of us and sharing our life with us had to share his death... The other side of the coin though is that Jesus not only shares our human life he shares his divine life with us too. If the Roman method of execution of those who claimed to have a rival authority had been different the Christian symbol might be a scaffold or an electric chair rather than a cross. The point of Jesus' death and the cross is that God didn't just play act at being human, God accepted all that it is to be human, even death and suffering.

The English word atonement means to be "at one with", that's the key point. Jesus is at one with us as a human being and as God and this enables us to be at one with God as well. This means that though we are imperfect, God accepts us, is prepared to be reconciled to us, to be our friend, parent, etc. To put it radically and perhaps a bit simplistically: Because of Jesus becoming human, to be God also means to be human; humanity is now in the very centre of divinity.

So much for Atonement...

If you want, you can all stop reading here but if you have time below is part of one of my posts modified a little from another thread which adresses the question of human sinfulness from antother direction. The context was about Christ's divinity and the thread is the "Do we (Muslims, Christians and Jews) believe in the same God or not?" The passage I refer to is Mark 10: 17-27 reproduced below in itallics.

The Rich Man

17 As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honor your father and mother.’ " 20 He said to him, "Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth." 21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
23 Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" 24 And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." 26 They were greatly astounded and said to one another, "Then who can be saved?" 27 Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible."

Mk 10:17-27 NRSV

For Christians one of the primary characteristics of God is that God is a God of grace. On the other hand God also demands perfect obedience. Thus God loves us and all people even though we do not deserve it, even though we can not fully obey the commandments, even though we can not bring ourselves to sell all we have and give it to the poor. The disciples are astounded because, if a rich man can not enter the Kingdom, who can? (EG It is easy to not work on the Sabbath if you are rich.)

Jesus' answer is that for human beings (not just rich people) it is impossible!! BUT for God all things are possible. The rich man came and asked the wrong question "What must I do...". So Jesus gives the answer to his question. Obey the commandments... sell everything - That is - do the impossible like a camel going through the eye of a needle. In a graphic and confronting way Jesus is making the point that none of us can be perfectly obedient.

The right question would have been "How do I receive...". The disciples hint at this question when they ask "Who then can be saved?" Jesus does not answer this question except by saying that “For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible.”

In other words it is God who gives salvation and we do not earn it, because in the Christian understanding God demands perfection and no human being is capable of this. Human obedience, and self sacrifice are never enough because they are never perfect. Only God saves. Christians do not believe we save ourselves and Jesus says as much in this story!

Christians believe that Jesus alone, truly God and truly human, could make the perfect response of obedince which God demands. didymus is right though to point out that this is not spelled out in this story in Mark's Gospel. Instead it comes from among other places the earliest Christian writings - earlier than the Gospels - the writings of Paul.

I believe at least at this point there is a difference of understanding in the Abrahamic faiths. As I understand it Judaism and Islam both believe God is merciful. I know too that there is at least some understanding of God being a God of grace in Judaism. I do not know if there is a place for grace in Islam. Yet at the same time there is an understanding that certain things must be done, there must be a particular measure of obedience, in order to receive salvation. Though God is a God of Mercy and perhaps Grace then as I understand it, in Islam and Judaism, God's mercy and grace do not overwhelm God's requirement of obedience.

For Christianity God's mercy and grace overwhelm God's requirement of perfect obedience.

Though of course God still wants us to be obedient...

Anyway hope this may have been a little helpful...

Blessings
Andrew