Who is Jesus?

[enton]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I am finding that there are many different explanations among Christians to explain who Jesus was or is. Some of the names he is called are: Son of God (on a more holy level than other humans), Messiah, Saviour, Lord, the Christ. It seems different Christians attach different meanings to these titles. I cannot accept the theology about Jesus I was raised with but I wonder if there is a Christian theology out there around who Jesus is that I can accept.

Here is what I was raised with and why I cannot accept it:

I was raised with the belief that humans owed God payment for their offenses against God, but humans were so sinful and could never pay for their redemption. Therefore, Jesus came and died on the cross to set us free, to "open heaven's gates," as the children's song Jesus Loves Me says, to pay for our sin, to redeem us from the clutches of Satan who was holding us hostage. I could never understand how these things were accomplished by Jesus' death.

Also, it made no sense to me that God could not forgive sinners who repented and said sorry. I, as a human, had to forgive many people many times even when they insisted they never did anything wrong. It seemed so horrendous that an almighty God could not forgive unless someone died a cruel death when I as a mere mortal could do so.

Nor does it make sense to me that sin can be paid for. Even if it could, what could Jesus' dead body have to do with it? How does a material or physical body translate into spiritual gain with God or with human souls?

Besides, I have not been able to see that humans are intentionally evil. I know that humans, myself included, are fallible and prone to error and serious mistakes and bad decisions. But not intentional evil. Even the most horrendous things humans do seems right to them at the time; thus I do not see it as intentional evil or sin.

Thus, I don't think there is any sin to be paid for by anyone. Responsible human beings will correct their mistakes as they go, as they are able. Irresponsible humans beings will probably be especially irresponsible if they think their sins have been paid for by Jesus.

Those are the main reasons I cannot accept what I was raised with. But I get the impression on here and in conversation with other Christians that there are other meanings for terms like atonement and Messiah that are different, and perhaps there is something out there that I can buy into or accept. I would be interested in what some of these meanings are if people are willing to share.

Ruby

There was another Jesus in the Bible mentioned. So let me clarify if you are referring to Jesus, born of Mary wife of Joseph. A Jesus who was baptized by John in the river of Jordan, also known as the Christ. This Jesus is acknowledged by YHWH (Lord God Almighty) as His Son, even before the world began. Before God's works of old, this Christ was brought forth. He was the Word of God. Don't be mistaken most interpreters of the Bible that the Bible is the Word of God. No!!! That is wrong! The Word of God is Jesus Christ; Christ Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible is the Book of God.

The Spirit of Christ who once preached in the early believers especially in the times of Moses just fulfilled the will of the Father, the Living God. And the will of the Father to His begotten Son is to bring salvation to all men. The Father has no variable;hence He will have to send His dear Son. That was why He assumed human flesh, because the ones whom satan would like to ensue also the punishment he obtained, are human beings and not insects or beasts. Mary was the chosen woman to bear the flesh of the Christ. So, all we can say in reference to the account of the Bible, is that Christ Jesus is God manifested in flesh. See: Isaiah 9:6 (Jesus Christ = Mighty God and Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace; he came in the volume of a book), Psalms 40:7.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by OzAndy

Jesus' answer is that for human beings (not just rich people) it is impossible!! BUT for God all things are possible. The rich man came and asked the wrong question "What must I do...". So Jesus gives the answer to his question. Obey the commandments... sell everything - That is - do the impossible like a camel going through the eye of a needle. In a graphic and confronting way Jesus is making the point that none of us can be perfectly obedient.

The right question would have been "How do I receive...". The disciples hint at this question when they ask "Who then can be saved?" Jesus does not answer this question except by saying that “For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible.”

In other words it is God who gives salvation and we do not earn it, because in the Christian understanding God demands perfection and no human being is capable of this. Human obedience, and self sacrifice are never enough because they are never perfect. Only God saves. Christians do not believe we save ourselves and Jesus says as much in this story!

Christians believe that Jesus alone, truly God and truly human, could make the perfect response of obedince which God demands. didymus is right though to point out that this is not spelled out in this story in Mark's Gospel. Instead it comes from among other places the earliest Christian writings - earlier than the Gospels - the writings of Paul

But I must point out that in an earlier post, I quoted Luke 10:25-28 where there was a certain lawyer who asked the same question, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?". But the answer given, that is Love God and Love yoiur neighbor, Jesus deemed correct. "Do this and you will live.", He said.

It wasn't the question that was wrong, it was the attitude of the heart that was wrong. The problem with the rich man is that while he obeyed the commandments, he didn't obey them in love. he was selfish with his riches. That is the difference between legalism and true obedience to God. If you are going to obey God, you have to do it in love (John 14:21). Because salvation is wrapped up in a relationship with God,

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." - John 17:3

And I juxtapose this with what Jesus said about the only difference between the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:

The Sheep:

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the worldFor I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

The Goats:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

It's not enough to obey the commandments, if we don't show love. But by loving others, we are loving God, which is what the rich man lacked.

[BlaznFattyz]

Jesus is the fulfillment of scripture and prophecies. Jesus is the love, glory, and grace of God.

[Rafey]

Can someone tell me please how Jesus relates to the Holy Ghost? Thank you.

[RubySera_Martin]

Quite a bit has been said on the topic of forgiving others. Maybe I wasn't clear on what I meant. Forgiving others is the only way I can live. There have been too many enormous offenses against me that people won't even acknowledge. Yet if I dwell on these things and seek revenge, I only hurt myself because it causes too much rage inside of myself. To remain mentally and emotionally healthy, the only way is to forgive.

For that reason, it seems God should be able to forgive, too, WITHOUT human or animal sacrifice. According to traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant teaching, God is incapable of doing this. I cannot accept such a God. That was the point I meant to make.

I like what someone said, that we are made in the image of God, and that if we can forgive without sacrifice of any kind, then so can and does God. The point someone made that the Greek Orthodox Church does not see things this way is a consolation for me. It tells me that traditional Christians with a history that goes back to the beginning of the Jesus Movement do not adhere to this teaching that has been a serious block to me all my life, and has caused me so much suffering.

As I said on another thread, I have been reading literature from a website called The Center for Progressive Christianity, or something like that. They provide Scriptural basis for most of the things I believe about the Jesus story and about living it out in a multi-religious setting. I know of a church that seems to hold to many of these beliefs and I look forward to attending their service tomorrow.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by enton

There was another Jesus in the Bible mentioned. So let me clarify if you are referring to Jesus, born of Mary wife of Joseph. A Jesus who was baptized by John in the river of Jordan, also known as the Christ. This Jesus is acknowledged by YHWH (Lord God Almighty) as His Son, even before the world began. Before God's works of old, this Christ was brought forth. He was the Word of God. Don't be mistaken most interpreters of the Bible that the Bible is the Word of God. No!!! That is wrong! The Word of God is Jesus Christ; Christ Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible is the Book of God.

The Spirit of Christ who once preached in the early believers especially in the times of Moses just fulfilled the will of the Father, the Living God. And the will of the Father to His begotten Son is to bring salvation to all men. The Father has no variable;hence He will have to send His dear Son. That was why He assumed human flesh, because the ones whom satan would like to ensue also the punishment he obtained, are human beings and not insects or beasts. Mary was the chosen woman to bear the flesh of the Christ. So, all we can say in reference to the account of the Bible, is that Christ Jesus is God manifested in flesh. See: Isaiah 9:6 (Jesus Christ = Mighty God and Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace; he came in the volume of a book), Psalms 40:7.

Jesus is Logos, true. The Bible is the God inspired word as written by men. Is that what you meant? Or are you implying that the Bible is false? Is so, then where did we find out about Jesus the Messiahah in the first place?

Perhaps you meant Jesus is the Word, and the Bible is the word, of God...

[AletheiaRivers]

RubySera,

You might like the article found at http://www.crosscurrents.org/weaver0701.htm . The author is a Mennonite (Anabaptist) and an author. The article discusses the different ideas that the church has had towards Jesus' death over the years.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

...
For that reason, it seems God should be able to forgive, too, WITHOUT human or animal sacrifice. According to traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant teaching, God is incapable of doing this. I cannot accept such a God. That was the point I meant to make.

??? Where did you get that idea? Sort of like saying that God can build a mountain so big that not even He can move it...

That is not what Catholic and Protestant teaching states of God's ability to forgive...not even close.

v/r

Q

[BlaznFattyz]

Gods Law is Holy, a reflection of God
Rom. 7:12, "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."

Breaking Gods law and sinning against God there are consequences, otherwise God and his law are not Holy, righteous and good.
Rom. 4:15, "...for the Law brings about wrath."
Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."
Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

But as humans we cannot fulfill the law, because we fail as sinners.
Gal. 2:16, "...by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Only the holy and righteous God can fulfill the holy and righteous law, and through that the perfect sacrifice reconcile us to God. It is only through the Son that we are saved. There is no other way.
Rom. 8:3, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son..."
Gal. 4:5-6, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
Rom. 8:3-4, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh. 4in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
Gal. 3:13, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."
Eph. 5:2, "and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma."

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Rafey

Can someone tell me please how Jesus relates to the Holy Ghost? Thank you.

I can't express it in official theological terms but I can direct you to a few scriptures that I use as the basis for this relationship. Possibly others have given more thought to it and know better ways to explain it.

In John 14, Jesus talks about a Comforter who will come to the disciples when he (Jesus) goes away. He seems to be saying this Comforter is the Spirit of Truth, and that via this Spirit of Truth he (Jesus) will be with the disciples always i.e. I will never leave you nor forsake you. In John 16:7 Jesus seems to be saying that the Comforter cannot come unless and untill he (Jesus) goes away from them. In Acts 2 we read about the Pentecost where the Spirit came upon the disciples. I understand this to be the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, whom Jesus had been talking about in John.

In John 3 we read the story of Nicodemus's visit to Jesus one night. Jesus talked to him about being born anew, of the spirit. I believe this refers to the same as described above. Many Christians talk about the new birth or being born-again. I believe this is how Jesus relates via the Holy Ghost to individual humans in ordinary life. I think this is also what Wil is talking about in this thread when he refers to the Christed Jesus or the Christed person. Others have pointed out that Jesus became a new person at his baptism. In that story, the Spirit in the form of a dove came and sat on him. I think this might be the same Spirit of Truth or Comforter he talked about in the passages noted above.

That is how I understand the relationship between the Holy Ghost and Jesus and the individual. Other may have different views that they wish to share.

[Jeannot]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Quite a bit has been said on the topic of forgiving others. Maybe I wasn't clear on what I meant. Forgiving others is the only way I can live. There have been too many enormous offenses against me that people won't even acknowledge. Yet if I dwell on these things and seek revenge, I only hurt myself because it causes too much rage inside of myself. To remain mentally and emotionally healthy, the only way is to forgive.

For that reason, it seems God should be able to forgive, too, WITHOUT human or animal sacrifice. According to traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant teaching, God is incapable of doing this. I cannot accept such a God. That was the point I meant to make.

I like what someone said, that we are made in the image of God, and that if we can forgive without sacrifice of any kind, then so can and does God. The point someone made that the Greek Orthodox Church does not see things this way is a consolation for me. It tells me that traditional Christians with a history that goes back to the beginning of the Jesus Movement do not adhere to this teaching that has been a serious block to me all my life, and has caused me so much suffering.

As I said on another thread, I have been reading literature from a website called The Center for Progressive Christianity, or something like that. They provide Scriptural basis for most of the things I believe about the Jesus story and about living it out in a multi-religious setting. I know of a church that seems to hold to many of these beliefs and I look forward to attending their service tomorrow.

On the question of sacrifice, the scribe in Mark 12 responds to Jesus: "Right, Teacher, you have truly stated He is One, and there is no one else beside Him. And to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

And Jesus tells the scribe: "You are not far from the Kingdom of God."

And Psalm 51 says "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit. A broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise."

And Proverbs 21:3 says "To do righteousness and justice is deisred by the Lord more than sacrifice."

[I, Brian]

I think it's certainly true that different Christians perceive Jesus in different ways - though perhaps for many it's not so much that the fundamental meaning is different, as much as which aspects of them appeal most.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Jeannot

Jesus was one person. One person, no matter how divine, cannot take away the sin of the world. That would take ALL persons to accomplish. St Paul tells us that Jesus is “the firstborn of the dead.” Jesus rose to show us the way, but like the apostles, we have run from the cross.

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

................
For that reason, it seems God should be able to forgive, too, WITHOUT human or animal sacrifice. According to traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant teaching, God is incapable of doing this. I cannot accept such a God. That was the point I meant to make.

I was thinking . . .

What if Christianity isn't about the "forgiveness of sins" but something slightly different?

In the past, people often made the ritual sacrifice of animals to "obtain" forgiveness for sins. However, in some places in the Bible, sacrifices are not made for sins, but for other purposes. Could a "ritual sacrifice" simply have been an expression? The "ritual sacrifice" was a "sacrifice" where you gave up a portion of your property, income or wealth as a sign that you understood that a relationship with God wasn't "cheap." You worked for it, lived for it, bled for it. A sacrifice, could, possibly have symbolised a change of heart or a change in focus and direction in life. If a sacrifice was a public and explicit expression, then it helped you remember a choice or decision you made. If you were sincere, and your expression agreed with your heart and your thoughts, God granted your wishes (not necessarily forgiveness or acceptance). In a sense, a ritual sacrifice was perhaps not just for acceptance by God, but possibly also to ask God for assistance in personal endeavours. This might have included things like, getting married, having children and making money to support them. The time taken for the animal to burn up was an opportunity for reflection and meditation. The sacrifice was an expression of dedication and commitment.

Moving on. Crucifixion and ritual sacrifice: were they the same event? Would there be a twist to the story if they were two separate events not one? I once read an article in The Good News magazine that suggested this view. I was influenced to come up with a similar view to that in The Good News magazine, with some adaptations of my own. The crucifixion is usually seen as the ritual sacrifice itself, but what if that concept doesn't work. First, if they were same event, it would have no value as the ritual sacrifice of a dead human being, the Jesus in the world of the dead, is that of a defeated Christ/Messiah/Saviour. It must, then, have taken place later. Jesus rose again three days later, ascended into heaven, and then performed the sacrifice.

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. . . . John 20:17

Was Jesus up to something? Hadn't he completed his mission? Perhaps the reason why he needed to ascend back up to heaven was because he had something to do up there. So what was the crucifixion for? Moreover, what was the purpose of the "ritual sacrifice"? Two separate events, rather than one, taking place. Going back to the Old Testament might offer some clues.

These people come near to me with their mouth and honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men. Isaiah 29:13
Having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumping over them by the cross. Colossians 2:14-15

In Isaiah 29:13, God is angry because people turned His Law into a bunch rules. By following rules, people started to believe that they could manipulate both themselves and God into accepting them as "righteous." God couldn't accept what they were doing because they thought they were special for being "rule-followers." They turned it into a systematised and technicalised Law system where you were right or wrong based on technicalities rather than something deeply personal. Colossians 2:14-15 may suggest that the crucifixion was really a political and moral sacrifice to free people from technicalised and systematised versions of God's Law. Jesus gave his life as a martyr against ideology and legalism, not sins.

So . . . the crucifixion was a political and moral sacrifice. The crucifixion was an opportunity for Jesus. He died, spent three days in the world of the dead, but because it was an honourable death, God raised him up and took him up to heaven. This was Jesus' chance to open up a possibility for a new relationship with God. The ritual sacrifice was perhaps to establish and herald this new relationship, as well as a new purpose, a change from the legalism of the past.

...built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles, with Christ Jesus himself as chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by His Spirit. Ephesians 2:20-22
As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 2:4-5
I pray also that those who believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. ... I in them and you in me. John 17:20-23

These three passages seem to go together. The first two talk about a spiritual temple -- that God lives in us. The third suggests not only that God is in us, but also that we are in God -- God lives in us and we live in God. Home sweet home. Maybe that's the real purpose of Jesus' ritual sacrifice: dedication of a new, spiritual temple. A spiritual nexus of God's people. When we become spiritual descendents of Jesus, we inherit God's acceptance of Jesus: God accepts us because he accepted Jesus first. Perhaps Christianity doesn't really revolve around God's forgiveness after all. Forgiveness is just a part of what it means to be accepted by God and to be part of His family/kingdom. We've wrongly put so much emphasis on it. When we're devoted to that new purpose, we become spiritual descendents of Jesus and inherit a place in his home. His home is our home too. Hopefully this is home sweet home for you too.

The idea that the crucifixion and ritual sacrifice were two separate events, rather than one, seems to work for me. It may sound like a break from the traditional story, so it may or may not work for you. Perhaps God forgives us not because someone died, but because we give ourselves a new purpose and make a commitment to it.

Rather than the Forgiveness Gospel, maybe it's the Home Sweet Home Gospel -- that God is just calling us to come back home.

[Jeannot]

Well, Saltmeister, that's certainly an interesting and novel take on the Atonement. And one that would require a lot of reflection. I'd like to think it over some more.

I intuit a connection between your idea and the one in the thread on Job--that is, that each of us has to work out a connection with God, and yes, that forgiveness is maybe not the basic question.

[Rafey]

Thank you RubySera_Martin for answering my point on the Holy Ghost. This is very helpful to me.