Which Religoin is right?

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Matt Langley

Well the unique part... all I have to say is ... duh.

Honestly who said his teachings were unique. I mean he taught common sense to a world of people who overlook common sense.

Honestly, what is common sense? Is this something we are born with? Do newborns have "common sense".

I would think that He taught the newest message of God for that time. I could never agree that Christ taught what the Essenes taught Him. I accept His role as a Messenger of God. He was surely taught by somebody and the Essenes would have been a good group to learn from. But He also would have been delivering a "new" message that changed the world.

Mick

[Mick]

Originally Posted by garybeckwith

because there are specific teachings that were previously thought to be completely original and new that Jesus preached, but since the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered we now know that he got these teachings when he was trained by the Essenes.

In fact we now know that at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople, 300 years after Jesus lived, the Romans decided to condemn all of the Dead Sea Scrolls and (and the Gnostic teachings) because they proved that Jesus teachings were not unique and divinely inspired.

Highly recommended book: The Lost Years of Jesus Revealed, New Revelations of the Dead Sea Scrolls, by Dr. C.F. Potter

Again I have to ask you how in fact we know this. Because of a book by Dr. Potter? I was aware of the role of the Council of Nicaea and Constantinople long before Dan Brown wrote his book, thanks to a professor of World Civilization courses I took in the 60's. I am not aware of the Romans condemning anything, since this was a convocation of Christians, not Italians. And didn't we just find the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 1900's? This sounds like a lot of mumble/garble.

Christ's message, a message of forgiveness, that we must learn to forgive, did change the world, it would seem. That is historical. We also are starting to understand that the Manifestations reiterated the messages of God from the past and then proclaimed the new message that would change the world.

Anyway, that is how I have a read on it.

Mick

[garybeckwith]

Originally Posted by Mick

Again I have to ask you how in fact we know this. Because of a book by Dr. Potter?

hello friend,

actually there are many books written on this. I just recommend that one as one I like. In fact it is a pretty common belief now that the Dead Sea Scrolls were held by the Essenes and that Jesus was taught by the Essenes at some point. Some actually believe Jesus himself was an Essene. Try Googling it...

Originally Posted by Mick

I was aware of the role of the Council of Nicaea and Constantinople long before Dan Brown wrote his book,

good, because that book is a work of fiction. I have avoided reading it because I am more interested in the true story, which I have found to be even more intriguing than what I've heard about the book. if you are interested in this, read the book "The Dead Sea Scroll Deception."

Originally Posted by Mick

I am not aware of the Romans condemning anything, since this was a convocation of Christians, not Italians.

well, check the history books. in 76AD, the romans conquered Jerusalem. Jews were condemned. The Essenes, as a major sect of Judaism, did not survive past this point. Their teachings were condemned, their books were burned, and they were exiled and killed.

then 300 years later, at the Councils, the Gnostics who held authentic Gospels and religious texts, like the Gospel of Thomas, were condemned, not by a convocation of Christians, but by a commission set up by the Roman Emporer which excluded many sects of Christians. After the councils,the Gnotics and their teachings were condemned. Their books were burned, and they were exiled and killed, just as the Essenes were previously.

I think this fits the definition of "condemned," no?

Originally Posted by Mick

And didn't we just find the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 1900's? This sounds like a lot of mumble/garble.

The Scrolls were discovered in 1947. They are not mumble/garble. They are among the most important archeoligical, religious, and historical finds of our time.

Originally Posted by Mick

Christ's message, a message of forgiveness, that we must learn to forgive, did change the world, it would seem. That is historical.

I don't argue at all that he changed the world, in fact I'd say he continues to, today. It's my prayer that more people follow his actual teachings, and the world would become a more peaceful place.

namaste

[garybeckwith]

Originally Posted by Matt Langley

Well the unique part... all I have to say is ... duh.

Honestly who said his teachings were unique. I mean he taught common sense to a world of people who overlook common sense.

It might be "duh" to you today, but in fact, if you lived within the Holy Roman Empire 1700 years ago, you could be exiled or killed for believing that Jesus learned some of his teachings in a book. at the Councils, it was agreed that a major tenet of the official and only correct interpretation of Christianity is, that all of Jesus' teachings were divinely inspired and he did not learn anything from another person or book. That is historical fact.

But I agree with you. It's more of a "duh" for me. Because the truth is universal. Not only do all the teachers tell us the same things, but we already know them in our hearts.

peace

[Mick]

Originally Posted by garybeckwith

hello friend,

actually there are many books written on this. I just recommend that one as one I like. In fact it is a pretty common belief now that the Dead Sea Scrolls were held by the Essenes and that Jesus was taught by the Essenes at some point. Some actually believe Jesus himself was an Essene. Try Googling it...

Again, I couldn't disagree with the thought that Jesus was taught by Essene teachers and I don't know if there is harm in stating that Jesus Himself was an Essene. The harm is to vaguely claim that "some actually believe". This type of unsupported argument is the mumble/garble I was talking about.

good, because that book is a work of fiction. I have avoided reading it because I am more interested in the true story, which I have found to be even more intriguing than what I've heard about the book. if you are interested in this, read the book "The Dead Sea Scroll Deception."

Of course it was a book of fiction. It is called a novel and Dan Brown never has claimed anything other than that. The significance of the book is it introduced some historical facts to the Christians that they simply were never told about in such a way that mainstream Christiainity is now exposed to these facts and supposition and debate and controversy are currently prevalent.

The Scrolls were discovered in 1947. They are not mumble/garble. They are among the most important archeoligical, religious, and historical finds of our time.

I wasn't referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls when I mentioned mumble/garble. I was referring to your statement,

"In fact we now know that at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople, 300 years after Jesus lived, the Romans decided to condemn all of the Dead Sea Scrolls..."

The Dead Sea Scrolls are documents that were kept by the Essenes. They surely are not complete and they surely don't represent the total thought of the Essenes, but only one set of files of maybe many that had been created. In the fifty years man has studied them, they are still putting together the importance of these documents and will be supposing for many years the effect on what we perceive as history. Many of the documents are imcomplete because of deteriation and, yes, I agree, there have been numerous books written speculating how important these documents are. But the Romans couldn't have condemned the "Dead Sea Scrolls". That was a name given to one set of documents after they were discovered in 1947. The members of the Coucil of Nicaea may have condemned the Essene thinking, though I am not aware of an across the board condemnation. It is also really a far reach to assume the members of the Council of Nicaea were all Romans simply because Rome had conquered Jerusaleum. In fact, it would be ludicrous. There are many that even question Constatines Christianity. Many suggest that he would have accepted any organization that would have united his empire. Most historians I have read state he was a practicing pagan until his death bed, when he was finally Baptized.

I don't argue at all that he changed the world, in fact I'd say he continues to, today. It's my prayer that more people follow his actual teachings, and the world would become a more peaceful place.

namaste

I couldn't agree more.

Mick

[garybeckwith]

Originally Posted by Mick

Again, I couldn't disagree with the thought that Jesus was taught by Essene teachers and I don't know if there is harm in stating that Jesus Himself was an Essene. The harm is to vaguely claim that "some actually believe". This type of unsupported argument is the mumble/garble I was talking about.

this is not unsupported. you should not take what I say for granted, but likewise you should not assume what I say is unsupported. again there are piles of books written, many by scholars, about the Jesus-Essene connection. Just try google. If I wasn't a "newbie" here I could give you some links. PBS did a special on this subject, called "From Jesus to Christ" which focused heavily on the Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Originally Posted by Mick

I wasn't referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls when I mentioned mumble/garble. I was referring to your statement,

"In fact we now know that at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople, 300 years after Jesus lived, the Romans decided to condemn all of the Dead Sea Scrolls..."

it is true that the Councils did not condemn "the Dead Sea Scrolls" per se, by name, but they absolutely condemned the Essene teachings which were contained in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Most notable was the Book of Enoch, widely considered to be the most important book to the Essenes. This book was condemned and considered heresy at the Councils.

Originally Posted by Mick

They surely are not complete and they surely don't represent the total thought of the Essenes, but only one set of files of maybe many that had been created.

That's not really true. The Dead Sea Scrolls are considered to be a "library." There are several copies of the same book in the collection of Scrolls. They were found in several caves, not just one.

Regarding your comment about Constantine not being a real Christian and just used the religion as a tool, and would have done the same with any organization or religion that he thought could help him maintain or increase power, I agree. In fact I think that was the real purpose of the Councils. That's my point of the discussion really. It's important to look at the stuff that they condemned because it has some of the most important teachings in there, including the Essene and the Gnostic teachings; the Book of Enoch and the Gospel of Thomas. These condemned teachings are some of the most mystical and spiritual teachings in all of Christianity and Judaism, and it's a shame that they've been ignored and unknown for 1700 years.

peace

I couldn't agree more.

Mick[/quote]

[Mick]

Gary Beckwith wrote:

"this is not unsupported. you should not take what I say for granted, but likewise you should not assume what I say is unsupported. again there are piles of books written, many by scholars, about the Jesus-Essene connection. Just try google. If I wasn't a "newbie" here I could give you some links. PBS did a special on this subject, called "From Jesus to Christ" which focused heavily on the Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls."

I post on other forums as well as this one and the subjects vary widely. One of the forums has a saying that goes..."Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof..." I am not interested enough in the topic to do the research myself. In fact, I would suspect the "proof" would not be positive anyway...just suggestive. I am not sure why a "newbie" would not post links, but I am not aware of any rules on this forum that would limit you. Please go ahead. I am interested in the subject, but not passionate. I do believe in the Station of Jesus as a Manifestation and don't question His Word. I am also aware that certain information was ignored by the Council of Nicaea, and many think that it was related to the structure of the future church and much of the dogma that isn't in the Bible. The "Mysteries" of Christianity so to speak. So please share URL's with us all.

[garybeckwith]

Originally Posted by Mick

Gary Beckwith wrote:

I am not sure why a "newbie" would not post links, but I am not aware of any rules on this forum that would limit you. Please go ahead. I am interested in the subject, but not passionate. I do believe in the Station of Jesus as a Manifestation and don't question His Word. I am also aware that certain information was ignored by the Council of Nicaea, and many think that it was related to the structure of the future church and much of the dogma that isn't in the Bible. The "Mysteries" of Christianity so to speak. So please share URL's with us all.

First.... I am not able to post links. It is a rule on this forum. I tried, and not only did it not allow me, but also deleted an entire post I had spent a long time writing.

In regards to the councils and what they "ignored." it is much more than structure of the future church. the best example I can give you is the Gospel of Thomas. Pick up a copy of "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels, which not only includes most of the text but also has some good explanation about the Councils.

peace

[garybeckwith]

Originally Posted by Mick

Gary Beckwith wrote:

I am not sure why a "newbie" would not post links, but I am not aware of any rules on this forum that would limit you. Please go ahead. I am interested in the subject, but not passionate. I do believe in the Station of Jesus as a Manifestation and don't question His Word. I am also aware that certain information was ignored by the Council of Nicaea, and many think that it was related to the structure of the future church and much of the dogma that isn't in the Bible. The "Mysteries" of Christianity so to speak. So please share URL's with us all.

hello friend,

this forum is burping a lot for me. I just replied to your post and it disappeared. to answer your question, I can't include any URLs in my posts. this is because of a rule on the forum. if I try, my post is automatically deleted and I lose all the text I typed out. after having this happen twice, and having to re-type out a couple long posts, I'm stuck with no URLs until the coast is clear. Even then I'm needing to copy all my posts to my clipboard before I post, because sometimes they just disappear.

concerning the councils, it was MUCH more than just the future structure of the Church that was mentioned in the portions that were excluded. AGain I would give you some links but I can't. Instead, I'd recommend the excellent book "The Gnostic Gosels" by Elaine Pagels, which shed a lot of light on the true Jesus and what happened at the Councils.

peace

[garybeckwith]

Originally Posted by Mick

Gary Beckwith wrote:

I post on other forums as well as this one and the subjects vary widely. One of the forums has a saying that goes..."Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof..." I am not interested enough in the topic to do the research myself. In fact, I would suspect the "proof" would not be positive anyway...just suggestive. I am not sure why a "newbie" would not post links, but I am not aware of any rules on this forum that would limit you. Please go ahead. I am interested in the subject, but not passionate. I do believe in the Station of Jesus as a Manifestation and don't question His Word. I am also aware that certain information was ignored by the Council of Nicaea, and many think that it was related to the structure of the future church and much of the dogma that isn't in the Bible. The "Mysteries" of Christianity so to speak. So please share URL's with us all.

Hello Mick

I've tried posting URLs in my replies but this forum does not allow it until I am no longer a newbie. When I am able I will give you some links, they are readily available.

In regards to what was "ignored" by the concils of Nicaea and Constantinople, it was MUCH more than simply "related to the structure of the future church." it was, in essence, the Gnostic teachings that were widely accepted by many Christians at the time. After the councils, as I have stated, these teachings were condemned and the followers of Gnostic teachings were all exiled or killed and their books were banned and burned. This is all well documented now that we have the Nag Hammadi Library. Suggested reading: The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. For example, the Gospel of Thomas was excluded and condemned at the Councils. It was one of the most important books to the Gnostics. The main idea of the Gnostics was that Jesus was a great teacher and he was connected to God, but his greatest teaching was that we are ALL connected to God.

Peace
Gary