When the next prophet comes?

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I went through a similar experience at 18 - though specifically without social constructs (I died at birth - I wonder whether that experience was recalled, rather than lived anew?). So I never encountered a sense of OT or NT figures and their relationship to God in your manner.

Hi Brian,
Often the spirit of God works “behind the scenes” and we do not realize its presence or even that it was there. Are you puzzled why you had your spiritual experience at age 18? I was mystified why you, an aspiring author who claims not to be Theist or Pantheist but somewhere undefined would be involved in a comparative religion interfaith forum. Everyone’s life has a purpose, yet many waste their lives without realizing what their purpose was.

What I do not follow is your attitude to religion in general - you seem to miss thousands of years of religious history and take a mere snap-shot of the present - particularly media stereotypes - and class it all together under a rather superficial view.

The purpose is not to dismiss anyone religious viewpoint, but to have logic and rationality be the main basis therein. Today everyone would benefit if radical Muslims realized that their efforts would not be rewarded by God/Allah. What are the benefits of abiding by the antiquated concept of a human-like man God who promotes slavery and desires servitude from man? Mankind would be better off with a God who is not a ruler or a dictator but one who guides the universe; a spiritual unity of pure logic & rationality without any needs. God is self-sufficient and needs nothing from man.

At the end of the day, violence often demands a justification, but it doesn’t have to be monotheistic, let alone religious - in Nepal there is a lot of violence due to Communist vs. Monarchists.

Many radical Muslim clerics and Muslim fundamentalists still abide by verses in the Koran where Allah commands them to expand Islam by any means possible. This is causing problems in areas of Chechnya, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Cambodia and other regions.

One can of course find a million reasons why religious rationality wouldn’t work, but consider this: If religious radicals would eventually (in 100 years?) be considered mentally deficient, would they eventually disappear? I know, the present system has existed for several thousand years & will not change easily, but every new development began with the first step.

A little over two years ago, at age 60, I was subjected to 2 spiritual experiences that dumped a task unto me for which I was not academically prepared for. I wrote a very mediocre book called “Transcendentalism - A New Revelation”. I would love to have someone rewrite it in their name using the rationality concept. I would even consider paying for the publishing costs.

Namaste,
Kurt Kawohl

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, Brian! :-)

Originally Posted by I, Brian

The hatred isn't really in the books - but you can use any book to justify any position you want.

I'm afraid you're overstating here.

Distortions of many books can indeed be used to manufacture false "justifications," but some--and the Baha'i scriptures in particular!--are extremely hard, if not impossible, to misuse in this manner!

Indeed, I think you would be hard pressed to find any way of "interpreting" them to endorse--let alone to advocate or justify!--hatred, aggression, or even harsh language.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

At the end of the day, violence often demands a justification.... Ultimately, a heck of a lot of it comes down to politics. Whatever war you are looking at, reliigon is used as an excuse, rather than a prime motivation....

And here once again, the very nature of the Baha'i Faith operates entirely contrary to this because partian politics is not only frowned on but outright fobidden to Baha'is! The system we have is world-wide and fully democratic, but quite eliminates any hint of divisiveness or even ego from its operation. Again, there is no way I can see that it can be twisted to endorse such things--or even allow them!

(You may or may not already be famliar with how the Baha' adminstrative system works in order to achieve its unific goals. If not, please let me know, and I'll be most happy to describe how it works. . . .)

Best! :-)

Bruce

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

A little over two years ago, at age 60, I was subjected to 2 spiritual experiences that dumped a task unto me for which I was not academically prepared for.

Most spiritual experience stretch us. But none of them take place despite our state of growth or independent of our understanding. You don't hear of near death experience so Hindus seeing Jesus or Christians seeing Buddha. I would contend that the primary reason is that one must filter reality through perception and the presense of holiness is perceived through whatever channels meaningfully leveraged those experiences in your life whether in a cat, a blue sky, some friends, a book, abstract concepts, whatever. A simple excercise is to take one thing and get as many views of it by different people as possible. Some see this, others that, some don't care, others see God....

Now all that being true one can indeed be guided even as we miss the true sources.

[smkolins]

Hey Brian, I perceive some interest in scifi/fa....

You might find some interest in a couple things. One is a couple short stories by Tom Ligon published in Analog magazine - You can read some online details. Tom isn't a Baha'i.

But there is a Baha'i author of Scifi/fa (both actually.) Her name is Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff. She's written many (I'ld guess over a dozen) published short stories in Analog and Interzone and has four novels of her own(_The Meri_ series and another seperate work _The Spirit Gate_) and a semi-collabarative work _Magic Time_. Some of her stuff has tons of Baha'i reference explicitly and other times its just not distringuishable. The earlier books can be bought used pretty cheap. She and her husband are also musicians (specializing in "filk" paradies.)

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by smkolins

Most spiritual experience stretch us. But none of them take place despite our state of growth or independent of our understanding.

How do you touch and feel without emotion or sense; which is spirit; without having it recorded by your subconscious where the spirit resides? The spirit is spirit and not a religious force and is neither heaven sent, nor heaven inspired, though some people via deep meditation can have their spirit interact with God’s spirit. Sentience is the ability to sense, capability of feeling, consciousness. The spirit is in the subconscious and often controls what one writes and thinks. The soul and spirit are often considered identical, though the soul has also been referred to as the vessel for the spirit.

The only physical effect that we can derive from the Spirit of God is by way of us receiving inspirations and blessings. In order to accomplish this, lines of communication through righteous living, need to be established between our spirit and the Spirit of God during our lifetime in order for our soul to survive after our physical demise. Any soul or spirit, upon a person's physical death, that does not bond or is not transmitted by us and received by the Supreme Spirit ceases to exist.

Spiritual transcendence of a person's spirit into a Dimensional Beyondness was achieved by most well known religious leaders. Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, Bahá'u'lláh, Ahmad, Nanak and many others of various faiths had achieved spiritual enlightenment by mastering the art of spiritual transcendence. Many have changed the course of mankind. Social norms during the time period of their lives dictated their and their society's acceptance of a spiritual existence or a Supreme Spirit of Purity, (a God) of either, might, royalty, peace, or government.

Kurt

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Social norms during the time period of their lives dictated their and their society's acceptance of a spiritual existence or a Supreme Spirit of Purity, (a God) of either, might, royalty, peace, or government.

I would suppose that of all those who strive for "purity of heart, freedom of spirit, and chastity of soul" none match the Great Prophets, however much the world oppresses them and kills them, they succeed and *are* pure, free and chaste.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

"I Am A Transcendentalist" http://www.near-death.com/forum/0157.html
Transcendentalism Today is not a religion, it is similar, but diverse ideas about literature, religion, culture and philosophy.

Perhaps this would be of interest to you... (long url to translate a pdf file through google.)
http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache...pilation&hl=en

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

I'm afraid you're overstating here.

Distortions of many books can indeed be used to manufacture false "justifications," but some--and the Baha'i scriptures in particular!--are extremely hard, if not impossible, to misuse in this manner!

Indeed, I think you would be hard pressed to find any way of "interpreting" them to endorse--let alone to advocate or justify!--hatred, aggression, or even harsh language.


And here once again, the very nature of the Baha'i Faith operates entirely contrary to this because partian politics is not only frowned on but outright fobidden to Baha'is! The system we have is world-wide and fully democratic, but quite eliminates any hint of divisiveness or even ego from its operation. Again, there is no way I can see that it can be twisted to endorse such things--or even allow them!

(You may or may not already be famliar with how the Baha' adminstrative system works in order to achieve its unific goals. If not, please let me know, and I'll be most happy to describe how it works. . . .)

Best! :-)

Bruce

To be completely honest, Bruce, I think it is merely a question of time. Baha'i has not yet had to face any potentially divisive issues. But if Baha'i is anything like any other world religion in its history (and there is nothing to recommend that it won't develop apart from that) then eventually Baha'i will face it's own paradigm shifts and schisms.

Baha'is may try their best to create a political Utopia, but human experience dictates that at some point it will come crashing down on itself. That is presuming that it ever reaches a significant enough size and influence to be forced with facing the decisive issues that crack it.

I realise that Baha'i members may not at all agree with this statement - and it's not my intention to start dictating how people think - I merely express an opinion. But if Baha'is really do look at the wider development of humanity as they say they do, and as I do, then you'll see your still in a honeymoon period of faith.

And at some later point - when Baha'i touches on the right (or wrong) sort of global issues, or else undergoes some form of theological evolution, then Baha'i as a movement can only splinter from the original dictates. Perhaps Bah'u'llah could recognise this, which is precisely why Baha'is need to watch for a new prophet in around 1000 years time - to correct and guide the faith from its own schisms. But, again, if history is anything to go by, anyone claiming to be the new prophet for an old religion simply creates yet new schism.

Not criticism, merely opinion.

Oh - and thanks for the recommendation, smkolins.

[BruceDLimber]

On the contrary, Brian: our scriptures promise us that by remaining faithful to the Baha'i Covenant (which is quite explicit in its unific laws and commands), the Bahai' Faith will be protected from schism!

And while our scriptures are fixed and will remain unvarying until the appearance of another Divine Messenger centuries from now, our administrative system itself includes a body authorized to tule on any new questions and issues not covered in our scriptures. (It can later abrogate its own decisions if conditions warrant.)

So the Baha'i Faith combines both unity and flexibility in a God-sent system which we are confident will indeed avoid these past pitfalls! :-)

Indeed, ever since its inceptiion, there have been numerous attempts to topple and split the Baha'i Faith! But it's worth noting that NONE of these has ever succeeded--and in fact, NO such attempted split has ever endured beyond a single lifetime! Those attempting to cause the splits both become obvious in their ulterior motives and contradiction of clear statements in the Baha'i scriptures, and often undergo further splintering themselves before their final disappearance. . . .

So I put it to you that what you're witnessing in the unity of the Baha'i Faith is far more than a mere "honeymoon perioc," and does indeed show every evidence of persisting and remaining whole and unsullied!

When unity, love, harmony, and concord are (and remain) one's primary goal, this makes a HUGE difference! :-)

Peace,

Bruce

[I, Brian]

Ah, but so much of Baha'i at the moment reminds me of early Christianity before the 4th century. True, there are important differences, but I can't help but see certain similarities - not least the reverence of the written word, and the enthusiasm and sense of change. Perhaps it is only a matter of time.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Ah, but so much of Baha'i at the moment reminds me of early Christianity before the 4th century. True, there are important differences, but I can't help but see certain similarities - not least the reverence of the written word, and the enthusiasm and sense of change. Perhaps it is only a matter of time.

"Reflect upon the past events of the time of Christ, and the present events shall become clear and manifest." -Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá, selection 147.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

To be completely honest, Bruce, I think it is merely a question of time. Baha'i has not yet had to face any potentially divisive issues. But if Baha'i is anything like any other world religion in its history (and there is nothing to recommend that it won't develop apart from that) then eventually Baha'i will face it's own paradigm shifts and schisms.

This has been thought about some - for example the book The Brilliant Proof examines several ways the Baha'i Faith may face these challenges with different strengths -
" Thus one of the explicit commands of this great Manifestation is the ordinance abrogating differences which separate men. It is because one of the occasions of dissension is difference of scholars with regard to the station of the Manifestation of the Cause. In former religions, even as testified by history, it has become evident that when in a question of this kind a difference has arisen between two doctors of religion, both parties were firm in their standpoints and held tenaciously to their sides, while the laity, according to their usage, would adhere some to one and some to the other, thus closing the doors to agreement and unity to such an extent that religious fraternity was changed into deep and bitter enmity, scientific dissension terminating in bloody strife and warfare. This is illustrated by differences which arose between Arius the priest and Alexander the Bishop of Constantinople, regarding the Trinity, in the fourth century, a.d.; also the Nestorian differences which took place in the fifth century between Nestorius the Bishop of Constantinople and the other bishops, which caused terrible wars and the shedding of precious blood. The effect of these sad dissensions has lasted until the present day. These are clear proofs and evidences for the point at issue."

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Oh - and thanks for the recommendation, smkolins.

Good luck with the reading!

[smkolins]

Here's the latest book I've read - very interesting take on Armageddon!
http://www.georgeronald.com/Books/Lo...20General.html

[smkolins]

"Know thou moreover that in the Day of Revelation were He to pronounce one of the leaves to be the manifestation of all His excellent titles, unto no one is given the right to utter why or wherefore, and should one do so he would be regarded as a disbeliever in God and be numbered with such as have repudiated His Truth."SÚRIY-I-VAFÁ (Tablet to Vafá) ((par. 66))

"leaves" is a term applied to women believers in the Baha'i Writings - as exemplified by "`Abdu'l-Bahá's supreme joy is in observing that a number of leaves from among the handmaidens of the Blessed Beauty have been educated...."here.

And "most excellent titles" is not a random phrase - as in "...He Who, among the Concourse on high, beareth the most excellent titles, and Who, in the kingdom of creation, is called by the name of God, the Effulgent, the All-Glorious." Tablet to the Czar and "...Him Whom Thou hast set over Thy most excellent Titles, and through Whom Thou hast divided between the godly and the wicked..."posted here and "The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day Spring of God's most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place of His exalted Attributes." posted here

[arthra]

I, Brian wrote:

Baha'is may try their best to create a political Utopia, but human experience dictates that at some point it will come crashing down on itself. That is presuming that it ever reaches a significant enough size and influence to be forced with facing the decisive issues that crack it.

Reply:

Actually Bruce, Baha'is are not trying to create a "political utopia". We're not even involved in partisan politics and there are no Baha'i parties nor do we support any political parties... All we've been told is that such things as a world governmnet will eventually come about NOT from our efforts but from political entities. In our literature this is called the "lesser or political peace" which will be followed by later stages.

Bruce:

I realise that Baha'i members may not at all agree with this statement - and it's not my intention to start dictating how people think - I merely express an opinion. But if Baha'is really do look at the wider development of humanity as they say they do, and as I do, then you'll see your still in a honeymoon period of faith.

Reply:

Well Bruce it's nice to read you feel we're in the "hone moon period of faith"...Truth is we've never had a "honey moon"! It's been a life and death struggle from the very beginning and against the greatest of odds the Faith has survived and emerged stronger than ever... We believe that opposition will only continue as the Faith becomes better established and in our Writings we're told that such opposition as in the past will provide us with even greater opportunities for growth and advancement.

Bruce:

And at some later point - when Baha'i touches on the right (or wrong) sort of global issues, or else undergoes some form of theological evolution, then Baha'i as a movement can only splinter from the original dictates. Perhaps Bah'u'llah could recognise this, which is precisely why Baha'is need to watch for a new prophet in around 1000 years time - to correct and guide the faith from its own schisms. But, again, if history is anything to go by, anyone claiming to be the new prophet for an old religion simply creates yet new schism.

Reply:

Baha'u'llah only claimed to be the Manifestation of God for this day... and was the fulfillment we believe of past prophesies. Your note that "anyone claiming to be the new prophet for an old religion simply creates yet new schism" is interesting though, since the Baha'i Faith is not an "old religion" but the newest one. Something I recall from the Gospel is reminiscent of this principle:

"No one pours new wine into old bottles or "skins"..."

Matthew 9:17

- Art