What's wrong with the Jewish God?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by inhumility

Did God send him (i.e. Jesus)?
This is a valid question, true, which has to be researched truthfully, sincerely and God-fearing arguments given to prove that Jesus was a true prophet of God. In Old Testament God revealed several criteria to verify a true prophet. Yes, verification in principle would and should be made from the words spoken by God and revealed to Moses and not from the writings of the clever clergy who never received even a word from God and also it should not be judged from the manmade sources of Jewish history, tradition and law which could be interpreted ambiguously. God’s men must be judged by the word of God.
It is true that when Jesus disappeared from the scene of crucifixion, Paul self-appointed himself as his epistle and traded pristine teachings of Jesus with pagan Greco-Roman mythology but that is not Jesus’ fault. Jesus remains truthful prophet of God chosen by Him when verified from the principles as mentioned above. It is sinful not to believe Jesus as true prophet of God.
Thanks

So would it be safe to go by only what the Gospels say conserning Jesus' life and teachings? And that it would be safe to eliminate that any teachings of Paul's interpretation concerning Christ's life and ministry? Would we find then find the true prophet in Jesus?

[Abdullah]

Peace Dondi,

It is only safe to go by what the Holy Quran and Hadith [sayings of the Prophet Muhammed [SM] says about Jesus [a.s], for the previous revelations of God have been distorted.

Peace.

[bananabrain]

abdullah,

so i, as a jew, should ignore my own tradition and religion and go by the Qur'an and hadith instead, that's what you're saying. right? because the "previous revelations" have been "distorted".

i say this to you in clear english:

the Torah has *not* been distorted by the jews.
if the Qur'an and hadith say it has, they are WRONG. i don't have to take muhammad's word, let alone bukhari or whoever, as true. my prophets are sufficient for me.

you have misunderstood your own religion if you think it requires me to believe that mine has been falsified.

"O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done." al-Qur'an 49:6

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

Peace Dondi,

It is only safe to go by what the Holy Quran and Hadith [sayings of the Prophet Muhammed [SM] says about Jesus [a.s], for the previous revelations of God have been distorted.

Peace.

Abdullah,

The Old Testament and the New Testament has been demonstrated to have been preserved satifactorily. The Jewish scribes were tenacious to say the least in transcribing the Scriptures over the centuries. An explanation can be found here:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vita...ahaccuracy.htm

A comparision of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were dated 100-200 B.C, and the next oldest transcripts dated about 900 A.D. show very little textural differences. Jesus as a Prophet quoted essentially the same scriptures as what the Dead Sea Scrolls evidenced.

As far as the New Testament, the manuscript evidence shows overwhelming accuracy due to the amount of avaliable manuscripts compared to other ancient literature. Over 5600 copies of the NT are avalible and have been cross-checked for accuracy:

http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm

In light of this, I don't see how the OT and NT could be considered distorted.

[wil]

Seems to me the orginal question was asked and answered.

I'd like to say more...

but one I am not a moderator

two I am at fault often

three this is not my religous forum...and dancing here I must respect the house I am in...

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Dondi

So would it be safe to go by only what the Gospels say conserning Jesus' life and teachings? And that it would be safe to eliminate that any teachings of Paul's interpretation concerning Christ's life and ministry? Would we find then find the true prophet in Jesus?

The basis of Paul’s teachings is only a vision, pretending of seeing Jesus in the vision and Jesus making Paul his successor, otherwise he himself admits on record being an enemy of the Jesus and his apostles and he never missed any chance of killing and hurting them if he could do that. The innocent sheep, while the shepherd was away were lead to believe the made up story of Paul, even to the extent to declare it a miracle of Jesus. I only say that the innocent sheep should stand at guard against the intents of Paul.
Leaving Paul’s teachings we are only more or less left with the Gospels. The Gospels do contain the life events of Jesus and sometimes or often the Word of God revealed on Jesus, or in fact Word from God’s mouth revealed on the heart of Jesus but spoken and conveyed to us by Jesus that should be given preference over the rest of writings of the Gospels. Our main thrust being on the Revelation of God or Word of God leaving aside the wisdom of the human mortals, we cannot ignore the fact that rest writings of the Gospels sometimes or often contain written accounts that are contradictory to each other and lack clarity and are ambiguous, before accepting these writings on their face value, these contradictions and ambiguities should be looked into and removed, among other things from later realities of history or sciences since come into light in our civilized era. These should not be covered under the false umbrella of the Gospels being written under inspiration. I believe as Jesus received express/explicit Word of God for our guidance; since he was a chosen one by God, he enjoyed like any other prophet, God’s hidden/implied also .So whatever he acted or spoke he was under implied inspiration from God. Inspiration of a person is dependent on his receiving revelation from God. Gospel writers, to my knowledge, never received even a word of revelation from God .We should also remember that as some researchers point out, and the inner evidence of the writings also suggest, that the writings of the gospels were written at a much later time. Some say that these were only attributed to their names for sanctity, and edited by the church under influence of Paul. I say caution should be observed, it does not harm and strengthens the true belief, though not the blind-faith. Nevertheless NT contains like OT does contain, guidance for us.
One of our members has quoted the following verse in his post and I end with it presently:-
"O you who believe! if an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done." al-Qur'an 49:6

[bananabrain]

we cannot ignore the fact that rest writings of the Gospels sometimes or often contain written accounts that are contradictory to each other and lack clarity and are ambiguous, before accepting these writings on their face value, these contradictions and ambiguities should be looked into and removed, among other things from later realities of history or sciences since come into light in our civilized era. These should not be covered under the false umbrella of the Gospels being written under inspiration.

the trouble with this, inhumility, is that you could say *exactly* the same thing about the Qur'an. and don't tell me that the Qur'an is unambiguous, clear or un-self-contradictory, either, because i know that isn't the case.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[inhumility]

God has sent Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and to send Guides is a permanant attribute of God and He has appointed him as the Guided One or Imam Mahdi and Promised Messiah etc that was to come in the latter days. He is a successor of all true prophets of God, anywhere on earth; through him teachings of all prophets of God from One and truthful source have been revived. Name him Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moshiach, Jesus, Messiah, Imam Mahdi or any name according to your own race/religion/tradition that was to come and you are waiting for him in the latter-days or end of the times, that person is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad appointed by God’s word/God’s mouth revealed on him and also as already prophesized by many a truthful prophets of different nations that have been fulfilled in him. Through peaceful means, dialogue, by convincing others with solid/irrefutable arguments and never through any coercion or compulsion or battle or war would this object be fulfilled as destined by God. One Man of God was destined to come, nobody can deny, who would promote unity among the religions as also would establish unity of Revealed Books of the world by true interpretations removing the contradictions, ambiguities and misunderstandings that have crept up in the Revealed Books of different religions or their followers with the passage of time. No book has been revealed on him by God and in that sense he is equidistant from them or since he has been appointed by God’s word/revelation on this office he is in center of the religions. This work is to be done according to set realities/rules described in those books/scriptures but hidden from the eyes of the people as yet. This is Ahmadia view a faith in Islam, others may believe as they like, no contention. Peace and love for everybody, no hatred whatsoever.
Thanks

[bananabrain]

says you. this is ridiculous.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Abdullah]

Hi Dondi,

There is evidence in the contradictory verses of the New-Testament, that it has been distorted, one example of that is, it says in the New Testament that, God made man in Gods image, and in another verse it says that God shouldn't be likened to anything in this creation.

As can be seen, these two verses are contradictory for in one verse, God is likened to the image of man and in another it says that God shouldn't be likened to ANYTHING in this world, or whats beneath it or above it.

This is just one example of a contradiction in the Bible and there are many others; google the words "Ahmed Deedat" to find out about more contradictions in the Bible.

And in the light of the Bible itself, the claim that the Torah has not been distorted cannot be maintained:

"How can you say, 'we are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us'?. But behold! the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". [Jeremiah. 8:8]

In the above verse, the Prophet Jeremiah scolded the Israelites that their corrupt scribes made the Law of the Lord [the Torah] into a lie by their 'lying pen' [that is the pen they used to change the verses].

check out 101 contradictions in the Torah in the following website:

skeptically.org/bible/id8.html -59k -

The Holy Quran does not support the claim that the previous Scriptures remain undistorted:

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from God", to traffic with it for a miserable price, - Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby" [Quran: 2:79]

Those in whose interest it is to do so, will obviously say that the old and new Testaments have been preserved in it's original form, withuot distortion, and they will concont a false history and 'evidence' to back up their claim, but it is on people to carry out proper scrutiny and research of their own and not just take their word for it.

Peace.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

Hi Dondi,

There is evidence in the contradictory verses of the New-Testament, that it has been distorted, one example of that is, it says in the New Testament that, God made man in Gods image, and in another verse it says that God shouldn't be likened to anything in this creation.

As can be seen, these two verses are contradictory for in one verse, God is likened to the image of man and in another it says that God shouldn't be likened to ANYTHING in this world, or whats beneath it or above it.

This is just one example of a contradiction in the Bible and there are many others; google the words "Ahmed Deedat" to find out about more contradictions in the Bible.

And in the light of the Bible itself, the claim that the Torah has not been distorted cannot be maintained:

"How can you say, 'we are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us'?. But behold! the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". [Jeremiah. 8:8]

In the above verse, the Prophet Jeremiah scolded the Israelites that their corrupt scribes made the Law of the Lord [the Torah] into a lie by their 'lying pen' [that is the pen they used to change the verses].

check out 101 contradictions in the Torah in the following website:

skeptically.org/bible/id8.html -59k -

The Holy Quran does not support the claim that the previous Scriptures remain undistorted:

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from God", to traffic with it for a miserable price, - Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby" [Quran: 2:79]

Those in whose interest it is to do so, will obviously say that the old and new Testaments have been preserved in it's original form, withuot distortion, and they will concont a false history and 'evidence' to back up their claim, but it is on people to carry out proper scrutiny and research of their own and not just take their word for it.

Peace.

It would be helpful if you would give referrences to both verses in question. I am familiar with the "God made man in His image" reference in Genesis, but I do noot know which verse your are referring to that your say is condradictory. I cannot properly comment unless I see the verse for myself. Could you post that verse please?

Many of these supposed "contradictions" have perfectly good explanations to them, taken in the proper context.

I can find equally disturbing contradictions with the Qu'ran as listed here, but I'm sure you can equally clear these up, too. No?

http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Q...tra/index.html

For example:

Do we worship the same God or not?

According to the 109th Surah of the Qur’an, Muhammad and the unbelievers did not worship the same Being:

Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. S. 109:1-6 Pickthall




Passages claiming that group (a) worshipped the same God:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. S. 2:62 Shakir

Say (unto the People of the Scripture): Dispute ye with us concerning Allah when He is our Lord and your Lord? Ours are our works and yours your works. We look to Him alone. S. 2:139 Pickthall

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). S. 3:64

And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. S. 29:46 Pickthall

So, do we worship the same God or not?

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Dondi

So, do we worship the same God or not?

There is only one to worship and Muhammad (pbuh) was his messenger, but his name was NOT Jesus (pbuh), nor 1/3 of it.

Surah 109 refers to people who disbelieve an unseen God (swt), and instead worship something physical like a statue of Zeus, Apollo, George Washington, or a prophet like Jesus (pbuh).

[Abdullah]

Hi Dondi,

Thanks for the reply.

Here is the verse of the Bible where it says that God shouldn't be likened to anything in creation or that people should not have an image of God:

"I am the Lord thy God...Though shall have no other Gods before Me. though shalt not make unto thee, any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water underneath the earth, though shall not bow down to them, or serve them"[THE FIRST COMMANDMENT, EXODUS -2-5]

And heres the verse that contradicts it:

"And God said "let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." [Genesis, 1: 26]

If man is to believe that God has the image and likeness of man, then how would he be able to not liken God with the image and likeness of man, which the first commandment forbids?

you can find 101 CLEAR contradictions of the Bible in the following website:

www.islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm -122k -

The contradictions in the Bible and the Torah are distinct contradictions that cannot be explained in a logical way; it is a bit like the concept of the trinity; however the Christians try and explain that the trinity is in accordance with monothiesm, from a logical and intellecutal point of view, it still remains
a clear contradiction.

there are no contradictions in the Holy Quran whatsoever. There are some 'percieved contradictions' that can be explained adequately and in a logical way when they are put into context with other verses and hadiths.

The verse you quoted refers to the idols that the Makkan and other Arabs of that region used to worship, and Muslims certainly didn't/dont worship what they used to worship and nor did they [the polythiest disbelievers] worship that which the Muslims worshipped [God Allmighty].

hope that helps

Peace.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

There is only one to worship and Muhammad (pbuh) was his messenger, but his name was NOT Jesus (pbuh), nor 1/3 of it.

Surah 109 refers to people who disbelieve an unseen God (swt), and instead worship something physical like a statue of Zeus, Apollo, George Washington, or a prophet like Jesus (pbuh).

But then my original OP question isn't about Jesus, but the Jewish God.

[The Lord]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I can find equally disturbing contradictions with the Qu'ran as listed here, but I'm sure you can equally clear these up, too. No?

For example:

Do we worship the same God or not?

You better use a better example than that, since your example does not have any contradtion. Verses 109:1-6 speak of "disbelievers," Kafiroun (deniers of God), who by definition do not believe in God.

Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. S. 109:1-6 Pickthall

The other verses you quote as a contradition do not reference the Kafiroun at all, but the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who by definition do believe in God, but follow a different revealed religion, hence the term "People of the Book," and thus might have slight disagreement in matters of theology. But in the end, they all DO worship God.

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. S. 2:62 Shakir

Say (unto the People of the Scripture): Dispute ye with us concerning Allah when He is our Lord and your Lord? Ours are our works and yours your works. We look to Him alone. S. 2:139 Pickthall

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). S. 3:64

And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. S. 29:46 Pickthall

As you see from my highlights (I've changed yours) the key here is the people addressed by these verses. Of course your confusion might be simply thinking that Muslims consider "People of the Book" as "Kuffar," which is absolutely not true.