What's happened to Islam?

[bob x]

However every one of our wars has been laced with rogue soldiers out of control...

We are not talking here about "rogue soldiers out of control": murder of civilians is what the Palestinian leadership orders, and has been ordering for 90 years.

[Friend]

Originally Posted by bob x

We are not talking here about "rogue soldiers out of control": murder of civilians is what the Palestinian leadership orders, and has been ordering for 90 years.

Who told you that ?

leadership??

It is a limited efforts from some palestanian,,,the majority of palestanian resistance was stone thrown from Children.



Do you remember this beautiful girl? Do you hear about her end?

Ok..we don't want to play the game of argument,,,,, we should believe that the humanity pain must be stopped in all sides.

[bob x]

Who told you that ?

I've been watching the news for decades. For me, it was the wave of plane hijackings in 1968 and the Bobby Kennedy murder, for a friend of mine it was the Munich Olympics, for others it was the old man in a wheelchair pushed off a boat, or the schoolbus bombings, or the nursery invasion, or the disco or the pizzeria, but Americans who regard Palestinians as the most disgusting people on the face of the earth all have their reasons for it.

[Friend]

Originally Posted by bob x

I've been watching the news for decades. For me, it was the wave of plane hijackings in 1968 and the Bobby Kennedy murder, for a friend of mine it was the Munich Olympics, for others it was the old man in a wheelchair pushed off a boat, or the schoolbus bombings, or the nursery invasion, or the disco or the pizzeria, but Americans who regard Palestinians as the most disgusting people on the face of the earth all have their reasons for it.

Hi /bob x


Here you speak about pure political reasons,,,as we said before...


Surely,,,these reactions support the violence...

Islam is not responsible about Israiel- palestinian conflict at all,this conflict started when british ( With balfore promise ) give Jews the chance to build their zionist country over palestinian lands .

because of that,,, I said before that Islam as a religion of peace is not responsible about countries conflict...They sometimes compete on leadership or gains or the land ,,,why Islam carry the people errors?


peace to all

[bob x]

"Here you speak about pure political reasons,,,"
I was speaking about moral disgust.
"Islam is not responsible about Israiel- palestinian conflict at all"
It is entirely responsible. Islam taught the Palestinians that Jews should not be allowed to immigrate unless they accepted ritual humiliations; then taught them to murder Jewish immigrants, but not Muslim immigrants. The British entry to the region brought this to a head, but the conflict had been going on even before then.

[bananabrain]

to be fair, bob, it isn't *entirely* responsible, just as zionism isn't *entirely* responsible either. it would be more precise to say that islam has historically exacerbated the situation, just as the "biblical israel" concept has. it's a mess and no amount of mud-slinging or it-isn't-our-fault-it's-yours is going to change that. the same goes for you, friend - the sooner you accept that islam has faults in practice (if not in principle, that is not for me to say) and stop with the rhetorical fidgy-widginess, the sooner the palestinians you presumably profess to care about will get their own state and be able to live in peace and coexistance with their israeli neighbours.

i don't think bashing islam is the answer, but neither is blaming israel, the west, or anything else for everything that's wrong in the islamic world going to actually help.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bob x]

I would sum up "what's happened to Islam?" this way: superiority breeds complacency and then rigidity. Consider the analogy of China, which was the greatest ancient civilization in the world, and knew it; so, China froze up solid, its scholars devoting themselves to studying the wisdom of the ancients and getting promoted to political power based on their ability to regurgitate Confucius. And this is why China remained "the greatest ancient civilization" all the way up through the 19th century. Likewise, Islam was the greatest medieval civilization in the world, and knew it, which is why it froze up (the "closing of the gates of ijtihaad") and still is, to this day, "the greatest medieval civilization" in the world. That won't cut it in the modern world (I wonder if America will freeze up as "the greatest modern civilization" when all the rest of the world moves on to whatever comes past "modern"?) The result is profound humiliation, by people from elsewhere who will not acknowledge your superiority, and in fact can show that you are inferior to them in ability to get anything done. The period of humiliation in China culminated in helpless lashings-out against any foreigner within reach, as during the Boxer Rebellion (after which the old imperial court lost all credibility, and the ancient order irretrievably broke down, making it ultimately possible for China to move on). The current period is for Islam one of analogous humiliation, resulting in similarly pointless violent lashings-out. The overthrow of the Ottoman caliphate, however, just didn't seem to have the same loosening-up effect that the fall of the Imperial dynasty did in China: the medieval mind-set is still alive and well, all over the Muslim world. Perhaps they need to have their noses rubbed in humiliation some more; I don't know what it will take.

[bananabrain]

that's an interesting analysis - presumably some people would characterise aspects of, say, the "war on drugs" and the "war on terror" as america's more-or-less fruitless lashings-out. i do wonder what will come next. i have been predicting a "new mediaevalism" for some time now, whose manifestations are most obvious in terms of the religious right in america, the die-hard stalinists, trotskyists and maoists in north korea and the UK "respect" party, the obvious jihadi lunatics, much of jewish ultra-orthodoxy, the liberals of the european union and, quite possibly, newly militant secularists like the darwinist pope richard dawkins.

i'm not sure your characterisation of the ottoman empire is correct though; it couldn't really ever have been really called a caliphate and didn't dominate the entire islamic world, arabia and iran both being cases in point. but it's certainly a theory i could work with.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bananabrain]

in fact, i should probably include the liberals of the episcopal church and reform judaism!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bob x]

i'm not sure your characterisation of the ottoman empire is correct though; it couldn't really ever have been really called a caliphate and didn't dominate the entire islamic world

Agreed. The Ottomans' failure to achieve either the total control or the degree of sacred veneration that the Chinese emperors had is surely a major factor in explaining why the fall of the Ottomans did not persuade the Muslim world that the old ways were done with and could not survive.

[Friend]

Originally Posted by bob x

I would sum up "what's happened to Islam?" this way: superiority breeds complacency and then rigidity. Consider the analogy of China, which was the greatest ancient civilization in the world, and knew it; so, China froze up solid, its scholars devoting themselves to studying the wisdom of the ancients and getting promoted to political power based on their ability to regurgitate Confucius. And this is why China remained "the greatest ancient civilization" all the way up through the 19th century. Likewise, Islam was the greatest medieval civilization in the world, and knew it, which is why it froze up (the "closing of the gates of ijtihaad") and still is, to this day, "the greatest medieval civilization" in the world. That won't cut it in the modern world (I wonder if America will freeze up as "the greatest modern civilization" when all the rest of the world moves on to whatever comes past "modern"?) The result is profound humiliation, by people from elsewhere who will not acknowledge your superiority, and in fact can show that you are inferior to them in ability to get anything done. The period of humiliation in China culminated in helpless lashings-out against any foreigner within reach, as during the Boxer Rebellion (after which the old imperial court lost all credibility, and the ancient order irretrievably broke down, making it ultimately possible for China to move on). The current period is for Islam one of analogous humiliation, resulting in similarly pointless violent lashings-out. The overthrow of the Ottoman caliphate, however, just didn't seem to have the same loosening-up effect that the fall of the Imperial dynasty did in China: the medieval mind-set is still alive and well, all over the Muslim world. Perhaps they need to have their noses rubbed in humiliation some more; I don't know what it will take.

It seems to be like what we read in clash of civilization for Samuel Phillips Huntington ....
_____________________________

you should see these links ...may it will be help

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/060702/papers...arschawski.pdf


M. Shahid Alam: Is This a Clash of Civilizations?













So this analysing which you present is confirm the vision of Samuel Phillips Huntington ,,,he compare between China and Islam as potential civilizations enemies of American civilization .....This is after the east old enemy ((sovaiat )) vanished from the political map.

They create the terrorism war to complete their plans

[Cyris Ali]

I keep seeing "Islam" ..."Muslim" ... "Jihad" and "9/11 attacks" used in the same sentence. I did a search just to make sure that this hadn't been posted already... but I was wondering if anyone here had ever dared postulate that Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda were NOT behind the 9/11 demolitions -- I mean the WTC tragedy?

Loose Change 9/11 (2nd Edition Recut)

[Eclectic Mystic]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the sooner you accept that islam has faults in practice (if not in principle, that is not for me to say) and stop with the rhetorical fidgy-widginess, the sooner the palestinians you presumably profess to care about will get their own state and be able to live in peace and coexistance with their israeli neighbours.

Wow. Just Wow.

[Cyris Ali]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the sooner you accept that islam has faults in practice (if not in principle, that is not for me to say) and stop with the rhetorical fidgy-widginess, the sooner the palestinians you presumably profess to care about will get their own state and be able to live in peace and coexistance with their israeli neighbours.

You're a moderator of a religious forum?


I'll have nothing to do with this.

Peace.

[Friend]

Originally Posted by bananabrain
the sooner you accept that islam has faults in practice (if not in principle, that is not for me to say) and stop with the rhetorical fidgy-widginess, the sooner the palestinians you presumably profess to care about will get their own state and be able to live in peace and coexistance with their israeli neighbours.

wow...realy wow



So it is easy to change the dreams of Israel state ,,,and remain Just in the 48 earth of palestine to build the Great Israel state ?

If so, Israel is realy a peace country...despite of all previous events.



Again it is pure political conflict....but no matter they want it to be religious conflict...to change and control the world under this idea.

after they create the monster ( Islam) did they could change it to be lamb???