What's happened to Islam?

[Francis king]

indeed...

[bob x]

"But in Muslim countries are the political systems and Islam not the same thing? This surely is the whole point in Sharia, that there is no seperate religious and political systems?" [from MuslimWoman; sorry the Quote button isn't working for me again]

Now this puzzles me greatly. Didn't you tell me on the other thread that you reject Sharia in its entirety?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Now this puzzles me greatly. Didn't you tell me on the other thread that you reject Sharia in its entirety?

No I did not say that. Go back to that thread and read my response. Just for clarification, what I would reject is the current systems of Sharia. I would live under a system that used the Quran as the basis for Sharia law but not one that uses the Sunnah.

[Abdullah]

The laws of Muslim countries nowadays do not equall shariah [albeit some Muslim countries implement a few aspects or more of it], so in a sense, the general muslim countries have the 'seperation of state and religion' principle as part of their constitution.

Peace

[earl]

We fortunately have nothing but the voice of reason from Muslims in this thread and just to set the record straight lest their be any confusion I do indeed separate out the "radicals" from reasonable Muslims as to this issue. But I was just pondering this thread title today. I realize that radical Islam is basically a magnet for a variety of dispossessed and disaffected, (& probably mentally unbalanced), individuals from all over the globe. But there is something truly unique in the modern era re the worldwide violence perpetrated by these radicals. Sure there are or have been other "hot spots" where war & violence have been wrapped up in religious justifications-Northern Ireland and currently Israel. But if you think about it the combatants in those areas were simply about grabbing power/land. etc. in their immediate area. These radical Muslims are about more than that-they purportedly want to homogenize the world by forcing death or conversion to their religious views. I'm not much of a student of history but I cannot recall a "religious" collective attempting to do that since the medieval Christian church! Basically, you don't see any other religious collective attempting to kill for that reason alone in the modern era-not Christians, not Jews, not Buddhists, etc. Fundamentalist Christians might think you're going to hell if you don't convert but they're generally not going to attempt to help you along the way there by ending your life. So cannot help but ask as I know so little about Islam-is there something unique to this religion that allows the "unbalanced" to pervert their religion into a world-wide slash and burn campaign that you just don't see in any other religious group? No offense intended and thanks, earl

[InLove]

Hi All. I've been reading along on the thread, and I wonder if anyone has seen the History Channel's program called "Cities of Light: Islamic Spain"? It touches on some of the issues you have been discussing here. I thought it was a beautifully produced program and a bit of an eye-opener. Of course I realize that things go back much farther, and I am no expert, so I don't know what they may have missed, but I have been wanting to mention it. If you get a chance, check it out....

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

I just realized that the program I referred to in my last post aired on the Public Broadcasting System in the U.S., not The History Channel. Sorry about the misinformation. Maybe the BBC will or has scheduled it. The full title is "Cities of Light: The Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain". Of course, it doesn't delve into all the details of strife among various Islamic viewpoints, but it does serve to illustrate part of the historical power struggle between the Abrahamic religions. It is a poignant look at just how much we have all lost in the wake of the battles waged in the interest of absolutism.

Just wanted to clear that up.

InPeace,
InLove

[Eclectic Mystic]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

What's happened to Islam, when it becomes regarded as acceptable to Muslim women and children?

I know - the extremism happening in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan - isn't typical of Islam, is seeded in US foreign policy, and have national political dimensions.

But at some point, these people being trained to carry out suicide bombings are being (apparently) told that their targets are not proper Muslims, and therefore it is acceptable to kill them.

And while we hear the Arab world condemning such bombings, we also see ugly political machinations - Iran wants to support the Iraqi Shi'as, Saudi Arabia wants to support the Sunni's.

We have a fracturing of the entire Middle East between Sunni and Shi'a Islam - previously at relative peace - and the extremists are blowing open the cracks where they can, inspiring even British Muslims to turn against any apparatus of a perceived enemy.

I dunno - I'm gobsmacked - when did any interpretation of Islam make it acceptable to kill women and children?

What in God's name are you talking about? This entire post has nothing to do with Islam or religion. These people would be doing what they're doing regardless of the fake justification (Islam in this case). If their religion was that of Conan the Barbarian's Crom, then they would be killing in the name of Crom. "These People" exist in every cultre. It's just that these particular middle easterrners are more honest and blatant about their intentions. But why does it matter if you are a middle eastern suicide bomber or some other decadent 21st century shlop responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. Furthermore, westerners (Americans, Brits, or Scotts like you and me) have no business being there in the first place. Have a beer.

[bob x]

" "These People" exist in every cultre."
What in God's name are you talking about? No, we don't find this kind of thing in every culture.

[wil]

Originally Posted by bob x

" "These People" exist in every cultre."
What in God's name are you talking about? No, we don't find this kind of thing in every culture.

Which culture don't we? Other than one which irradicates the many to insure they get the few?

I lived across the street from an abortion clinic bomber...didn't know it till after the headlines... In retrospect I believe he was as Christian as they are Muslim.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by bob x

" "These People" exist in every cultre."
What in God's name are you talking about? No, we don't find this kind of thing in every culture.

Bob,

Does 'state terrorism' count, when taking into account wether 'these people' exist in every culture/religion?

[bananabrain]

ooh, yes, let's seek an excuse to bash israel and the US!! because one is run according to jewish law and the other according to the new testament, isn't that right?

sheesh.

*rolls eyes*

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Friend]

Ok,,,

If we think about the real life in Muslims and arab countries from the time of discovering oil in their land until now we can find the answer...The plans of west ...the colonization...the suffering..all these,,created the violence.
Before the western invading of Islamic lands ,,, Do you hear about detonatings suicidal?????


It is not Islam,,,but political Chaos

Thanks

[wil]

Originally Posted by Friend

Ok,,,

If we think about the real life in Muslims and arab countries from the time of discovering oil in their land until now we can find the answer...The plans of west ...the colonization...the suffering..all these,,created the violence.
Before the western invading of Islamic lands ,,, Do you hear about detonatings suicidal?????


It is not Islam,,,but political Chaos

Thanks

Namaste Friend,

You are correct, in my case I know very little about the last 1000 years of history in your part of the world. Sure there were the crusades and the ebb and flow of empires...but of details I know none. It is my impression that it was all quite tribal until the 20th century when we westerners decided to draw some lines in the sand and carve out countries...

Surely suicide bombers are reflective of desperation and lack of technology/equipment to attack from a distance. But are you indicating that the various tribes were peaceful nomads leading a Hollywood Sheik existence without warring and violence amongst each other?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by earl

So cannot help but ask as I know so little about Islam-is there something unique to this religion that allows the "unbalanced" to pervert their religion into a world-wide slash and burn campaign that you just don't see in any other religious group? No offense intended and thanks, earl

Hi Earl

No offense taken and in the current global climate it seems a perfectly legitimate question.

I would have to answer honestly - Yes. It is not the teaching of the Quran that allows this but the interpretations and human meddling over centuries.

I believe this has come about for a couple of reasons:

If you read the more radical Muslim sites one of the main topics for some time has been that Muslims are not allowed to grass on other Muslims. So if you know your neighbour is going to blow up a cafe of innocent people you are not allowed to tell the police - yeah right. This comes from the teaching of Muslim brotherhood, an excellent teaching if taken as it was intended but as we can see from this example it can also be twisted into something very ugly.

The difference I feel between Islam and other religions is that we not only have the Quran (our scriptures) but also the hadiths (the narrated sayings and actions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)). These were written long after the death of the Prophet and many are known to be 'weak' (not true). Many of the 'issues' people have with Islam come purely from the hadiths and their interpretations. I believe that any faith that relied not only on their scripture but also on unverifiable narrated sayings would face the same problems.

Another difficulty is that we do not have religious leadership (like the Vatican or Church leaders), we have scholars but they simply give their opinions, which we can accept or reject. In one way a good thing but in another not. Take the issue of condemnation of terrorist activities, most scholars will not come out and absolutely condemn these acts, because scholars are not leaders and therefore cannot judge (go back to the above issue of brotherhood). Of course this is simply an excuse because when they want to give an absolute opinion you can be damned sure they have no trouble doing so, so it is just a get out clause - of which we have too many.

Islam has not changed for 1400 years, from a time of tribal grudges and warfare and by following the hadiths we are effectively thinking as people did during this time. I am not suggesting for one second that we change the Quran but we do need to go back and interpret the Quran in light of modern times and values.

Salaam