What's happened to Islam?

[bob x]

while they have oil our countries will talk a good game but not play one

Their oil has passed its peak, and production may go into steep decline sooner than they realize. You are quite correct that until that happens, nobody among the powerful will tell them to their faces what we really think about them.

But bombing them achieves nothing more than creating a whole new generation of terrorists.

Unless we wipe out all their future generations.

hatred will not re-educate them, it will feed their hatred.

They, themselves, must start changing themselves. Outsiders cannot change them, only destroy them.

[wil]

There are so many war mongers in the world that have stated exactly what Bob indicated as a worst case scenario. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "If it weren't for oil, we'd have turned the whole area to a sheet of glass years ago" And today they are actually fairly confident that the loss of middle east oil completely would do nothing but good on the energy front, that alternative resources would be made readily available and that the ANWAR and off shore sites and refineries would be opened at breakneck speed.

They also look at the history. What between the death march, Japanese war crimes, and kamikaze bombers, what is the difference between those years and these? We bombed them, rebuilt their economy and now they are a going international concern.

Unfortunately the weapon that is used is more than a toothbrush or peacock feather.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Unless we wipe out all their future generations.

MW shakes head in utter despair.

Is that really America's answer to every problem - blow the sh*t out of it?

These are people we are talking about, yes their country breeds extremists but that can be dealt with by re-education and yes that must come from within. That is what we have been discussing, the process of change has begun in Saudi but it will be a slow process. The fact that you may not like the speed of change does not give anyone the right to turn their country into a wasteland.

And who is to say what they should change into? Will America not stop killing until it has cloned the whole world into mini Americas? Are we heading toward a world where unless you use bikini clad women to sell power tools you can't be in the gang?

Look what is now happening in Pakistan, the west has pushed so hard for quick change 'to stop the terrorists right now' that the country is now in chaos. The extremists are growing and martial law is just a stones throw away. Their country has been on a knife edge for years, it just needed someone to push it one way or the other. My prediction - worldwide terrorism will get worse from that country now.

It is so easy for our governments to sit back and say 'do something now' but how quick to forget. How many years did we fight the IRA while the US poured money into their organisation? You cannot fight terrorism so easily and until you engage in discussion there is no end in sight. Bombing people just moves the violence and creates more terrorists.

ps. the Saudi's know exactly when the oil is due to start running dry, hence the changes.

[bob x]

Is that really America's answer to every problem - blow the sh*t out of it?

Not to every problem, but to one like this, yes.

that can be dealt with by re-education and yes that must come from within.

Yes, and it better come pretty quick.

And who is to say what they should change into?

A country that does not export random murderers. Otherwise, I am afraid to say the whole population, extremist or otherwise, is likely to be subjected to random murder likewise.

the Saudi's know exactly when the oil is due to start running dry

No. Nobody really does. They have their guesses, which may be quite over-optimistic.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Yes, and it better come pretty quick.

Why?

Originally Posted by bob x

A country that does not export random murderers. Otherwise, I am afraid to say the whole population, extremist or otherwise, is likely to be subjected to random murder likewise.

So because Saudi citizens choose to go to Pakistan and train to be terrorists you think we should bomb their country? How many American citizens are currently in the training camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan? We know there are a couple of hundred Brits at least. So are you going to bomb the UK next? Yesterdays news here reported 2,000 potential terrorist in the UK right now - quick scramble the jets, come and nuke us.

Originally Posted by bob x

No. Nobody really does. They have their guesses, which may be quite over-optimistic.

I think they are being under optimistic, the last report I read suggested as early as 2016 (last time I looked it was 2007 now).

Did you see on the news today that the King of Saudi met the Pope today? You could have knocked me down with a feather (I also wasn't aware there is 1 million Christians in Saudi). That is progress, slow and small but progress.

[bob x]

"Yes, and it better come pretty quick.
Why? "
WHY??? We are sliding toward a very hideous war.

"So because Saudi citizens choose to go to Pakistan and train to be terrorists you think we should bomb their country? "
I am PREDICTING that we WILL bomb their country.

"I think they are being under optimistic, the last report I read suggested as early as 2016 (last time I looked it was 2007 now)."
That gives them nine years to dispel a deep pit of ill-will that they have been accumulating for decades.

[Muslimwoman]

Bomb their country? That sounds like wishful thinking on your part.

[bob x]

No, MW, believe it or not I am quite appalled by such things. It made me sick to my stomach to watch the buildup to the Iraq war, knowing it would be a bloody disaster, and not be able to stop it. It is surely a sign of mental aberration in my countrymen that such a large fraction of them (I won't go into the argument about whether it was more or less than half) would vote for W, twice no less; I don't entirely understand it. I will tell you this, though: I understand enough to see that there is an anger of boiling intensity, scarcely below the surface, and nothing being done to calm it.

[Muslimwoman]

I am very pleased to hear that, I was beggining to think you are pro war. Perhaps we just come at this from different angles. I am not saying there are not problems in the ME or they shouldn't be sorted out but I strongly believe that by forcing change (US led change) we are just creating more terrorists, not dealing with the ones we already have.

Is it true that when Bush gave the order to invade Iraq he had to ask what Sunni and Shia meant? I find it hard to believe someone would invade a country, try to place it's selected government in power but had no idea of the factions involved.

[bob x]

I am telling what's out there. Ever since 9/11, a lot of people (I think many more than just those who will say so), get this feeling, which is triggered again whenever there is one of those incidents, whether a big one like Bali / Madrid / London or a little one like Danish-cartoons / Buddha-blowup / Paris-riots, "It's US, or THEM. The planet is not big enough for both. Sooner or later we are going to have to wipe them out or at least crush them." It may not be 1913 or 1938 yet, but it is later than you think.
I know perfectly well the US can't "push" change in the Middle East, or the Middle East will just push back. I knew that even before we went in to Iraq, and most Americans (unfortunately not including W!) have figured it out by now. But change has to come, and quickly: not over a couple generations.

[Muslimwoman]

Says who? Who made the US king of the world? Are we speaking about different things, are you just talking about terrorists or about all Muslims?

[bob x]

The people who have lost all patience with the Muslim world are not going to make any such distinction: you're ALL terrorists, to them; or at least, they figure you will all help keep the terrorists going. This won't change until al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Wahhabi imams, etc. and anybody who raises funds for them, praises them as heroes, or just makes excuses for them are all gone from your society: you can kill them all, or just imprison them, or just render them powerless, how you do it is up to you-- but stop thinking you have 50 years to get it done.

[bob x]

"Who made the US king of the world? "
Dwight Eisenhower, George Patton, Douglas MacArthur, and J. Robert Oppenheimer. Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, John J. Rockefeller, and Philo T. Farnsworth. Walt Disney, Louis Meyer, and the Warner Brothers. Ray Kroc, "Colonel" Sanders, and Dr. whatsisname that invented Coca-Cola. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and Abraham Lincoln.
I'm not asking you to like the fact that in many different ways, the US has acquired massive influence and power. I am just telling you that it IS a fact.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by bob x

"Who made the US king of the world? "
Dwight Eisenhower, George Patton, Douglas MacArthur, and J. Robert Oppenheimer. Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, John J. Rockefeller, and Philo T. Farnsworth. Walt Disney, Louis Meyer, and the Warner Brothers. Ray Kroc, "Colonel" Sanders, and Dr. whatsisname that invented Coca-Cola. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and Abraham Lincoln.
I'm not asking you to like the fact that in many different ways, the US has acquired massive influence and power. I am just telling you that it IS a fact.

Hey did you forget someone? What about James Monroe and the Monroe Doctrine of U. S. foreign policy, which continues to drive the hegemony of present American foreign policy?

Originally Posted by bob x

The people who have lost all patience with the Muslim world are not going to make any such distinction: you're ALL terrorists, to them; or at least, they figure you will all help keep the terrorists going. This won't change until al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Wahhabi imams, etc. and anybody who raises funds for them, praises them as heroes, or just makes excuses for them are all gone from your society: you can kill them all, or just imprison them, or just render them powerless, how you do it is up to you-- but stop thinking you have 50 years to get it done.

Well do you think that this attitude is reasonable, that even Muslims who don't go and take part in terrorist activity and who don't support the terrorists but do nothing to stop them are still guilty of terrorism?

I suppose this has a strong correlation to your relationship with Christians. So there are those who shout "death to America" but also those who shout "death to all fags!!!!"

Are we responsible for the actions of our fellow adherents? How are we to police such action? There is simply no centralised authority to deal with these guys other than national governments.

I must say, though, that I have never heard of Christians organising an anti-fag-hater army, nor a Muslim army to fight off fundamentalist terrorists -- armies to actually infiltrate and exterminate those who shout "death to all fags" or "death to America." I have though, heard of Jewish movements set up to oppose and condemn the Zionists.

[bob x]

Well do you think that this attitude is reasonable, that even Muslims who don't go and take part in terrorist activity and who don't support the terrorists but do nothing to stop them are still guilty of terrorism?

I am not talking about whether the attitude is reasonable. I am telling her the attitude is out there, and is growing.

I suppose this has a strong correlation to your relationship with Christians.

Islam and Christianity I am both sick of.

I must say, though, that I have never heard of Christians organising an anti-fag-hater army

No, but Eric Rudolph is in jail because the FBI patiently hunted him for years. Some of those FBI men are likely to have been Christians, given the demographics. Of course the Christian churches themselves are useless.