What's happened to Islam?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

We are back to the 100 lashes which I called "vile and disgusting"; your earlier defense of it was that it is only supposed to happen rarely. I say it is thoroughly wrong, always; to repeat from post #108 so you don't have to scroll back:

There isnt a one line answer so you will have to bear with me. This is why Muslims say it is so important to put verses in context with other verses.

In Islam adultery is one of the gravest sins. So you understand the seriousness of this issue for Muslims:

“[Under Islamic laws in an Islamic state] It is not lawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except for one of three sins: a married person committing fornication, and in just retribution for premeditated murder, and [for sin of treason involving] a person renouncing Islam, and thus leaving the community [to join the enemy camp in order to wage war against the faithful].” (Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, and An-Nasa’i)

The conditions placed on punishing anyone for adultery (as per the Quran) are:

1. The person who commited adultery must be a sane, adult Muslim.

2. Proof of the crime can only be through voluntary confession or 4 reliable Muslim witnesses that actually see the penis enter the vagina (seeing clothing meeting is not enough all 4 must actually see the genitals in contact) or through unjustifiable pregnancy (ie the husband has been away for 10 months and the woman does not claim rape, of course there is no punishment for a woman that has been raped).

3. The person that confesses does not change their testimony before punishment is given.

4. None of the 4 witnesses change their testimony before punishment is given.

NB for all other crimes only 2 reliable male Muslim witnesses are required.

So according to the Quran the only way you can receive 100 lashes (be you male or female) is if you confess, basically do it in the town square with lots of witnesses, unexplainably become pregnant with no suggestion of rape.

For those that confessed, to avoid punishment they can simply withdraw their confession.

Any witness that gives evidence against someone and that evidence is shown to be false, they will be punished instead and their testimony in any matter will be rejected in the future.

Much is told in the Sunnah of the practice of withdrawal prior to ejaculation, which one would assume if you are committing adultery and there is no such thing as contraception (which there was not at the time) is a practice you would use to avoid pregnancy.

So what we actually have is simply a severe warning against committing adultery because it is virtually impossible, according to the Quran, to earn this punishment.

That is the Quran, the faith of Islam - what some Muslims twist that into is a completely different matter.

[bob x]

"In Islam adultery is one of the gravest sins. "
Violence is a much graver sin. I know perfectly well that Islam thinks sexual matters justify violence (that I, personally, would be dead very quickly if I fell into the hands of someone like Muhammad). This is one of the grave evils in Islam. You cannot say so, because you cannot repudiate The Book. That is what I mean when I say that you, too, are a "fundamentalist" (an idolater who worships a book). There is no point that I can see in arguing about it any further: what you call good, I consider profoundly evil, and that is not likely to change.
"unjustifiable pregnancy (ie the husband has been away for 10 months and the woman does not claim rape, of course there is no punishment for a woman that has been raped)"
In practice, of course, if the woman has been raped she will be unable to prove it, and will be condemned.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

(that I, personally, would be dead very quickly if I fell into the hands of someone like Muhammad).

Good heavens you are just a non Muslim version of Abdullah, even when I offer to have a grown up conversation about Islam you just go into 'hate' mode. I suggest you learn what the Quran teaches.

Show me one single verse of the Quran that states the punishment for a man that performs a homosexual act ...... I'll save you some time shall I here it is:

If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. (4:16)

Again, what my faith teaches and what some Muslims do are two totally different things. No, we do not accept homosexuality as a natural practice, as sexual intercourse is for procreation. Yes I do reject the people that insist death is the punishment for homosexuality, your sexual practices will be judged by Allah, as will mine.

Different Muslim countries have different views on homosexuality. In Egypt homosexuality is not illegal but if people are openly 'flirting' their sexuality they can be prosecuted under public indecency laws (as I would be if I stuck my tongue down my husbands throat in public).

Originally Posted by bob x

In practice, of course, if the woman has been raped she will be unable to prove it, and will be condemned.

Try to think about what you are saying. It would take 3-4 months before a pregnancy became known, so one would assume that unless the woman has been in a coma for that length of time she would have told somebody she had been raped.

[bob x]

If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both.

My understanding is that the word you render "punish" here means "execute". Of course there could be reprieve

If they repent and amend...

but I cannot "amend" my nature. I am as God made me, and have nothing to "repent" for in that regard.

In Egypt homosexuality is not illegal but if people are openly 'flirting' their sexuality they can be prosecuted under public indecency laws

Dozens were arrested for being at a private party, and imprisoned in harsh conditions for lengthy periods. If you have not heard of the case, I certainly have.

one would assume that unless the woman has been in a coma for that length of time she would have told somebody she had been raped

And been condemned as a liar, for failure to produce four witnesses; then, when her pregnancy shows, that is proof of her guilt. If you have not heard of such cases, I certainly have.

And then there is this case: no no no, I am not going to tell you this is "typical" of Muslims, it's just too funny
Gunman severs victim's penis - Yahoo! News

[bob x]

16. Waallathani ya/tiyaniha minkum faathoohuma fa-in taba waaslaha faaAAridoo AAanhuma inna Allaha kana tawwaban raheeman
from this source giving transliterations and the common translations:
USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts
None of the translators give any clarity about what kind of "punishment" is intended:
004.016
YUSUFALI: If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful.
SHAKIR: And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

My understanding is that the word you render "punish" here means "execute". Of course there could be reprieve

Thank you for posting the correct interpreations of the Quran. It does not say execute or mean execute. My belief is that the word punish is left for mankind to decide, as G-d knows morals will change with time.

Originally Posted by bob x

but I cannot "amend" my nature. I am as God made me, and have nothing to "repent" for in that regard.

I am not saying that you can change, it is an issue I really do not understand. My personal feeling is that your sexuality is between you and G-d. Do I agree it is a natural way to have sexual intercourse, no I do not but do I judge you for it, no I do not.

Originally Posted by bob x

Dozens were arrested for being at a private party, and imprisoned in harsh conditions for lengthy periods. If you have not heard of the case, I certainly have.

No I have not heard about it, I would be interested if you have a link. I cannot see how they can arrest people in private for something that is not illegal. I would imagine they have decided that a private party is public, as there are more than 2 people there but would need to read about it before I made any rational comment.

That said we do not live in a democracy, we live under martial law and the police are a law unto themselves (particularly the secret police).

Originally Posted by bob x

And been condemned as a liar, for failure to produce four witnesses; then, when her pregnancy shows, that is proof of her guilt. If you have not heard of such cases, I certainly have.

I have heard of many terrible things that Muslims do, what I am saying is that it is not sanctioned by our faith.

And then there is this case: no no no, I am not going to tell you this is "typical" of Muslims, it's just too funny
Gunman severs victim's penis - Yahoo! News[/quote]

Wow was Mrs Bobbit a Muslim? Jealousy makes people do the most awful things no matter what faith they follow.

Do you have a faith Bob? Either one you were born into and rejected or one you choose to follow? Just curious.

[bob x]

I am not saying that you can change, it is an issue I really do not understand. My personal feeling is that your sexuality is between you and G-d.

Thank you. But: the author of the Qur'an did not have that opinion; are you repudiating the Qur'an to that extent?

Dozens were arrested for being at a private party, and imprisoned in harsh conditions for lengthy periods. If you have not heard of the case, I certainly have.
No I have not heard about it, I would be interested if you have a link

Egypt Officially Brands Homosexuality ‘Perverted’

And been condemned as a liar, for failure to produce four witnesses; then, when her pregnancy shows, that is proof of her guilt. If you have not heard of such cases, I certainly have.
I have heard of many terrible things that Muslims do, what I am saying is that it is not sanctioned by our faith.

I don't see how you can say that: if she makes an accusation of rape, and has no witnesses, her charge cannot stand, according to the Qur'an. Then, the charge against her is proven, by the evidence of the pregnancy. Where in the Qur'an do you see that this is not exactly how it is supposed to go?

Do you have a faith Bob? Either one you were born into and rejected or one you choose to follow?

I was not raised in any religion (if you go back to my great-grandparents, they were mostly Presbyterians, but none of my grandparents or parents were religious). I consider myself Buddhist more than anything.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Thank you. But: the author of the Qur'an did not have that opinion; are you repudiating the Qur'an to that extent?

Not at all. The Quran is very clear that homosexuality is forbidden. The verse I gave you says homosexuals should be punished, so it is not an accepted way of life. All sins must be accounted for after our death. I am nobody's judge, it is not my place to judge you, which is why I say it is between you and G-d. When you die you will have to account for your bad deeds, as will I.

Originally Posted by bob x

Egypt Officially Brands Homosexuality ‘Perverted’

It seems my husband must be gay as he does not pass the 'underwear' test:

BBC NEWS | Programmes | Crossing Continents | Egypt crackdown on homosexuals

I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue Bob. I cannot agree it is a natural way of life as I do believe life is about procreation and husband/wife relationships but I would not want to see harm come to you or any other gay person. I also would not want to live in a society where any sexuality, homosexual or hetrosexual, was openly shown.

We have a young gay man comes into our shop to buy clothes, he is a very pleasant young man. I would not like to see him arrested or abused in any way by anybody but I suppose I keep hoping he will 'grow out of it'. That must sound insulting and naive to you and I am sorry but it is how I feel.

Originally Posted by bob x

I don't see how you can say that: if she makes an accusation of rape, and has no witnesses, her charge cannot stand, according to the Qur'an. Then, the charge against her is proven, by the evidence of the pregnancy. Where in the Qur'an do you see that this is not exactly how it is supposed to go?

The Quran talks about witnesses for zina (consensual sexual intercourse). Rape is by definition not zina.

The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) never punished a rape victim and used to have the rapist killed. No witnesses were required, he took the womans word for it.

What Muslims have done with that is another matter (like the awful Hudood laws) but neither the Quran nor the Prophet accepted rape or insisted that women must have witnesses.

This is from IslamOnline:

A raped woman is a victim that must be treated with honor and kindness. She is not required to produce four witnesses to prove the crime done against her, nor is she punished for the crime done against her.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.

A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Not at all. The Quran is very clear that homosexuality is forbidden. The verse I gave you says homosexuals should be punished, so it is not an accepted way of life.

We have a young gay man comes into our shop to buy clothes, he is a very pleasant young man. I would not like to see him arrested or abused in any way by anybody but I suppose I keep hoping he will 'grow out of it'. That must sound insulting and naive to you and I am sorry but it is how I feel.

Clearly, I can only speak for myself; but I do not recall making a conscious decision as to my sexuality. Therefore, whatever it is, I had no choice. Should it be reasonable that there be a possibility that I might be punished for it, either in this world or...?

Also, I am not expecting to grow out of my sexuality...

s.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Clearly, I can only speak for myself; but I do not recall making a conscious decision as to my sexuality. Therefore, whatever it is, I had no choice. Should it be reasonable that there be a possibility that I might be punished for it, either in this world or...?

I can't answer for G-d. All of the Scriptures have said it is forbidden and unnatural, so I can't even say 'well maybe we misinterpreted our Scripture'. I honestly don't know what to make of it all, is it a test from G-d to see if I practice the tolerence I preach? I honestly do not know what to make of this issue, it is one of a list of issues I leave to G-d and trust He knows what He is doing, as it is one of the few issues my 'gut' remains silent on.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Also, I am not expecting to grow out of my sexuality...

I don't imagine the young man I was talking about will 'grow out of it' either. I think that is just my mind struggling with what I accept and do not.

[Snoopy]

I understand.

I would not like to be in the shoes of someone born in a Muslim country who grows up and realises that they are gay.

s.

[Friend]

About punishment in Islam

Many of Quran statements and texts came as reaction for certain cases to learn muslim's people the tenets of their religion...the gradating and adaptation teaching of people is one of Islamic way to transfer people from case and form of life to another...it is hard to make a sudden change ....so many change of Muslims behaviour came in steps...when we read Al Quran we must put the verses in it's context to understand the meaning...so we find different adjudications for adulterously or drinking wine ....the final command should be the law....the rest we call it ( mansok) or not followed because another and newer law made it useless.

Example:

Surat ( chapter of Alnoor) have the final Allah Judgement about adultery..which doesn't followed in most of Islamic country today.

(1-10)Surah Al-Noor (the light)

1-"A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition.

2-The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in theircase, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day:and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

3-Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or anUnbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.

4-And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them witheighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men arewicked transgressors;-

5-Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

6-And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (canbe received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah thatthey are solemnly telling the truth;

7-And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.

8-But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling alie;

9-And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.

10-If it were not for Allah's grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft-Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed)."


These verses clarify the Islamic teaching about this issue and we see that the guilty is not a women guilt as many non muslims think ..it is both man and woman guilt ...and as Allah told us the leinence and forgiveness is the optimal standards of the pure human as the epithet of our Gud ( Allah)


................................

even the Quranic verses which told us about infidels must be turned to the context to know which infidels that Quran told us about...are they Qurish people Whom reject Islam message or are they enemies of islam from another arabs land ....or are they people outside arabs land.

I see some people here catching and referring articles and thoughts from anti_islam sites...without knowing what they quoted ....




My sis/MW


See the discussion aim and trend ...before going on it ...is it useful?
are there any help or real objective? are there any new idea for both sides?
and then take your decision to carry on it.


with my best wishes and blessing to you in Eid Alftr .

[bob x]

On the one hand you say:

The verse I gave you says homosexuals should be punished

and on the other:

I would not want to see harm come to you

The scripture insists that you do me harm, but you know it is wrong. Yet you cannot say that the scriptures are wrong. This is the basic problem at the heart of the Abrahamic religions: you have a bunch of old books preserving, not just wisdom and sound morals, but also a lot of stupidities and brutalities from the deep past, and you cannot shed yourselves of them.

I suppose I keep hoping he will 'grow out of it'. That must sound insulting and naive to you

Very.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Friend

My sis/MW

See the discussion aim and trend ...before going on it ...is it useful?
are there any help or real objective? are there any new idea for both sides?
and then take your decision to carry on it.

with my best wishes and blessing to you in Eid Alftr .

as salaam aleykum sister

That is good advice, sometimes I just don't know when to finish beating a dead horse but I am trying to learn.

Eid Mobarak

[bob x]

Out of curiosity: how long does the Eid "al-fitr" last? A week? This would be the fifth day (approx.) of the post-Ramadan moon, so is it still Eid?