What then should we conclude?

[Bruno's logic]

A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive.
(Albert Einstein, 1954)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God is not separate from the world; He is the soul of the world, and each of us contains a part of the Divine Fire. All things are parts of one single system, which is called Nature; the individual life is good when it is in harmony with Nature. In one sense, every life is in harmony with Nature, since it is such as Nature’s laws have caused it to be; but in another sense a human life is only in harmony with Nature when the individual will is directed to ends which are among those of Nature. Virtue consists in a will which is in agreement with Nature.
(Zeno, founder of Stoicism, 333-262 BC)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Truth alone is eternal, everything else is momentary. It is more correct to say that Truth is God, than to say that God is Truth. ... All life comes from the one universal source, call it Allah, God or Parmeshwara.
(Mahatma Mohandas K. Gandhi 1869-1948)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly. ... To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.
(Isaac Asimov)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We have already compared the benefits of theology and science. When the theologian governed the world, it was covered with huts and hovels for the many, palaces and cathedrals for the few. To nearly all the children of men, reading and writing were unknown arts. The poor were clad in rags and skins - they devoured crusts, and gnawed bones. The day of Science dawned, and the luxuries of a century ago are the necessities of to-day. Men in the middle ranks of life have more of the conveniences and elegancies than the princes and kings of the theological times. But above and over all this, is the development of mind. There is more of value in the brain of an average man of today - of a master-mechanic, of a chemist, of a naturalist, of an inventor, than there was in the brain of the world four hundred years ago. These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars - neither were they searched for with holy candles. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience - and for them all, human is indebted to human.
(Robert Ingersoll)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our most holy religion is founded on Faith, not on reason.
... superstitions, which, being unable to defend themselves on fair ground, raise these intangling brambles to cover and protect their weakness. ... The idea of God, as meaning an infinitely intelligent, wise and good Being, arises from reflecting on the operations of our own mind .. this theory of the universal energy and operation of the Supreme Being is too bold ever to carry conviction with it to a man .. We are ignorant, it is true, of the manner in which bodies operate on each other: Their force or energy is entirely incomprehensible: But are we not equally ignorant of the manner or force by which a mind, even the supreme mind, operates either on itself or on body? .. We have no idea of the Supreme Being but we learn from reflection on our own faculties. (David Hume, 1737)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.
(Albert Einstein)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And the cause of everything is that which we call God.
(Leo Tolstoy, 1879)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Religion is an illusion and it derives its strength from its readiness to fit in with our instinctual wishful impulses.
(Sigmund Freud)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deep Ecology is rooted in a perception of reality that goes beyond the scientific framework to an intuitive awareness of the oneness of all life, the interdependence of its multiple manifestations and its cycles of change and transformation. When the concept of the human spirit is understood in this sense, its mode of consciousness in which the individual feels connected to the cosmos as a whole, it becomes clear that ecological awareness is truly spiritual. Indeed the idea of the individual being linked to the cosmos is expressed in the Latin root of the word religion, religare (to bind strongly), as well as the Sanskrit yoga, which means union.
(Fritjof Capra, 1982)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When Tung Kuo Tzu asked Chuang Tzu where the Tao was, he replied it was in the ant, the grass, the clay tile, even in excrement : 'There is nowhere where it is not ... There is no single thing without Tao'.
(Harrison, Pantheism, 1999)
What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of "humility." This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism.
(Albert Einstein)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bruno!

Welcome to CR!

"What then should we conclude?" I can only speak for myself, and I conclude this sample is too limited, too narrowly focused. There are as many views of the concept of G-d, spirit, metaphysics and the desire for an afterlife as there are people that have walked the earth. It seems your ten views (some are multiple quotes from the same author) do not present a fair and impartial sampling of probably on the order of ten billion views. In other words, I have logically concluded that this is an insufficient sample to form an opinion from.

The Christian Bible alone has 66 books of quotes. I understand Hinduism is even more prolific. And since it can take one an entire lifetime to gather a genuinely representative sample, I conclude that I should do the best I know how with what I have been given and where I have been placed in the here and now, and let the rest take care of itself.

[Paladin]

If a conclusion is reached then that person is dead. Who finds a thing and then keeps looking? Certitude equals dullness.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Paladin!

Good to see you around!

Originally Posted by Paladin

If a conclusion is reached then that person is dead. Who finds a thing and then keeps looking?

What if one discovers the thing they found isn't quite what they thought it was?

It's taken me a while to realize that the more I learn, the less I know; that things are seldom only what I believe I see.

Originally Posted by Paladin

Certitude equals dullness.

I believe I understand what you mean, and agree. But I can also see how some find comfort in the familiarity of certitude.

[Bruno's logic]

Interesting replies...

You have the choice to do nothing, or do something.

You have the choice to learn about reality, of what we really are, and through this philosophical foundation of wisdom, to 'know thyself' ,
you can enlighten yourself and others to think and act more wisely or you can do nothing....


My point from this small sample of quotes is just this;

What is this 'collective human experience' eventually to reveal?

What collective conclusions can be made from our limited perspectives?

"Wisdom is free to the blissfully ignorant. But the price we pay is our unique perspective and personal description of the one thing existing....

It is unfortunate that descriptions confuse reality, but, words of human construct are all we currently have to communicate to each other what already actually exists..."
~Bruno

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Paladin!

Good to see you around!


What if one discovers the thing they found isn't quite what they thought it was?

It's taken me a while to realize that the more I learn, the less I know; that things are seldom only what I believe I see.


I believe I understand what you mean, and agree. But I can also see how some find comfort in the familiarity of certitude.

If someone finds something and determines it is not what they thought it was they will keep looking, although it makes me wonder what it is they seek to find, and the reason they are looking in the first place. Do they want comfort, security, a sense of place to firmly root their sense of self? If this is the mindset it is a recipe for pain and suffering, at the very least a constant dissapointment. Maybe if the stopping and looking is for what already is, or actuality then maybe there is a chance for them to truly understand.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Bruno's logic

Interesting replies...

You have the choice to do nothing, or do something.

You have the choice to learn about reality, of what we really are, and through this philosophical foundation of wisdom, to 'know thyself' ,
you can enlighten yourself and others to think and act more wisely or you can do nothing....


My point from this small sample of quotes is just this;

What is this 'collective human experience' eventually to reveal?

What collective conclusions can be made from our limited perspectives?

"Wisdom is free to the blissfully ignorant. But the price we pay is our unique perspective and personal description of the one thing existing....

It is unfortunate that descriptions confuse reality, but, words of human construct are all we currently have to communicate to each other what already actually exists..."

~Bruno

And if what you find determines that you really aren't?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Certitude equals dullness.

Certitude can also be, I think, the most dangerous thing in the world.

s.

[Bruno's logic]

The Buddha taught that all things are subject to change, nothing is permanent. Our suffering often stems from the fact that we cling on to things as if they were. For example, we enjoy a pleasant taste but rather than just enjoy it for that moment we want it to last forever. In the nature of things, this cannot be and so when the pleasantness fades way we are disappointed, discontented, unhappy.
Suffering - the first noble truth - is the unsatisfactoriness that underlies all that we experience. Nothing is completely perfect - even happiness has within it the seeds of discontentment.
If we are rich, we know that wealth may not be something we can enjoy forever. If we are healthy we know that ill-health is always lurking in the background, and one day we will face death which will bring an end to all that we find pleasant in life.
The third mark of existence is 'not-self' quite a radical and challenging concept. Buddhism differs from other religions in that it puts forward the view that there is no such thing as a permanent self or soul. The personality is made up of five changing factors - body, feeling, perception, mental activity (including the will) and consciousness. Buddhism rejects, therefore, the idea of an eternal soul, even one that is reborn time and time again,
-Buddha
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him find it in himself"

"That which is neither conscious nor unconscious, which is invisible, impalpable, indefinable, unthinkable, unnameable, whose very essence consists of the experience of its own self, which absorbs all diversity, is tranquil and benign, without a second, which is what they call the fourth state -- that is the atman. This it is which should be known."

"If you remain at the top, you will see no difference. You can preach dharma only when you come down. If you remain at the top and see, everything will appear as one. That One always remains pure. Nothing can pollute it."
-Ancient Hindu belief

True Knowledge of Reality will transform Humanity. By understanding how things are necessarily interconnected (which is central to all science / knowledge) we can determine which of our ideas correspond to real things that exist Vs. imaginary things (e.g. dragons, particles). This certainty of truth will end the current 'postmodern relativistic' (social construct / logical positivist) view of no absolute truths that leaves postmodern philosophy, physics & metaphysics full of doubt, conflict and confusion. And clearly these errors in thinking and acting ultimately harm us and our societies.
~Haselhurst

[Taosaur]

Originally Posted by Bruno's logic

"If you remain at the top, you will see no difference. You can preach dharma only when you come down. If you remain at the top and see, everything will appear as one. That One always remains pure. Nothing can pollute it."
-Ancient Hindu belief

This quote doesn't quite ring true with my experience and study. I reached a point for several months about seven years ago when I was paralyzed by the direct and unshakeable experience of unity, that all is one, and while in a sense I did have to "come down" and retreat from practice for a while, I wouldn't describe the experience as a peak so much as an obstacle or way station.

Since then I've heard an Alan Watts lecture that describes my process pretty well--and I'll try to find it, because my memory is imperfect, but I'll summarize for now. Essentially, it described four steps or worlds one perceives. First, one perceives the One through the Many; then one sees only the One (where I got stuck for a time, and what this quote seems to describe as "the top"); then one sees the One as immanent in the Many; and finally one sees no difference, the One is the Many is the One.

If anyone has a link to variations on this teaching or recalls the Zen terms, please post--I'm having difficulty locating the lecture.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Taosaur

If anyone has a link to variations on this teaching or recalls the Zen terms, please post--I'm having difficulty locating the lecture.

how about >>>

Thirty years ago, before I began the study of Zen, I said, 'Mountains are mountains, waters are waters.' After I got insight into the truth of Zen through the instructions of a good master, I said, 'Mountains are not mountains, waters are not waters.' But now, having attained the abode of final rest, (that is, Enlightenment) I say, 'Mountains are really mountains, waters are really waters.'

- Zen Master Ch'ing yuan Wei-hsin.

s.

[17th Angel]

What should we conclude? On what? On you? My conclusion is, you are very selective when it comes to quotes.... That an OK conclusion?

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

how about >>>

Thirty years ago, before I began the study of Zen, I said, 'Mountains are mountains, waters are waters.' After I got insight into the truth of Zen through the instructions of a good master, I said, 'Mountains are not mountains, waters are not waters.' But now, having attained the abode of final rest, (that is, Enlightenment) I say, 'Mountains are really mountains, waters are really waters.'

- Zen Master Ch'ing yuan Wei-hsin.

s.

Yeah like that

[Bruno's logic]

quote] quote]

If anyone has a link to variations on this teaching or recalls the Zen terms, please post--I'm having difficulty locating the lecture." -Taosaur

Erowid Alan Watts Vault : The Value of Psychotic Experience

Jesus and Buddha, Aristotle and Einstein, Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell,

To name but a few....

lifetimes can and are spent studying existence...

What conclusions have been made?

Is humanity,

as a collective conscious,

evolved enough to understand the truth....

the one truth...

Are you?

Am I?

[Bruno's logic]

If anyone has a link to variations on this teaching or recalls the Zen terms, please post--I'm having difficulty locating the lecture." -Taosaur

[/quote]
Erowid Alan Watts Vault : The Value of Psychotic Experience

Jesus and Buddha, Aristotle and Einstein, Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell,

To name but a few....

lifetimes can and are spent studying existence...

What conclusions have been made?

Is humanity,

as a collective conscious,

evolved enough to understand the truth....

the one truth...