What is Zen?

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Traditional Definition of Zen:

Outside teaching; apart from tradition.
Not founded on words and letters.
Pointing directly to the human mind.
Seeing into one's nature and attaining Buddhahood.

Namaste Thomas,

thanks for the post.

that phrase "outside teaching, apart from tradition" is also rendered "special transmission outside doctrine"

this phrase indicates a very specific time in the development of Ch'an, which became Zen in Japan.

When Buddhism moved into China it was taken there by a guy named Bodhidharma, the First Patriarch. this is the fellow that, legend has it, sat in front of a wall for 6 years and, to prevent himself from falling asleep, he cut off his eye lids. where his eye lids fell, tea plants grew.. thus bringing tea to China.

in any event, Buddhism met Taoism at a time that was very opportune for them both. This phrase "special transmission outside of doctrine" is indicative of the influence of Taoism on the Buddhism of China called Ch'an and, moreover, is particular to a school of Taoism called Complete Reality or Completely Real Taoism.

i'd be happy to expound on this further if anyone is interested...

eh.. what can i say... i find in the eastern traditions all the counterpoints to the rythym of the unexpressible that dance so jauntily in my mind

[I, Brian]

Certainly happy to find out more - I never even realised that Zen was where Buddhism met Taoism. Certainly an intriging cross-roads.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

"special transmission outside doctrine"

Pax, Vajradhara -

And yes, that's a better translation, don't you think?

Being a traditionalist, from what you say I would view the meeting of the two as 'providential'!

Thomas

[steve em]

Originally Posted by xamnzero

What is Zen?

The word Zen is is a Japanese rendering of the word Chan which is a Chinese rendering of the Sanskrit word dhyana or meditation. meditation is of course one of the spokes of the wheel of the eightfold path. The Zen Buddhist tradition is a tradition that is not centered on academic understanding of sutras
but upon direct realization of your Buddha nature. there is way too much talk about and not nearly enough practice. Dogen Zenji said to study Buddhism is to study yourself, to study yourself is to forget yourself.
Great master Yoka Daishi said, the best student goes directly to the ultimate, the others read many books but their faith is uncertain."
I make it a point of never discussing Zent with non practitioners. And ancient worthy one said the teachings of the vast canon of Buddhism are all prescriptions for curing madness, if you see the original mind madness ceases any ypu may spontaneously burst out in laughter.
"Long Chen Pa the Tibetan sage says "since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being as it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one could well burst out in laughter. "

[Zazen]

chan isnt where "buddhism met taoism" for one, buddhism was already in china before bodhidarma arrived

bodhidarma was NOT the first patriarch of chan he was i believe the 28th(going all the way back to buddha), i have the lineage somewhere but not going into that..

bodhidarma was the first patriarch of the chan lineage in china though

chan was brought to china via bodhidarma who settled down in shaolin temple(a buddhist temple founded by ba tuo)

chan, taoism and confucianism were all influential to each other and chan or "zen" has branched out to many different cultures other then china and japan

i personally liked vaj's first interpretation of chan, the lima bean though is usually replaced with a mango or some other kind of popular fruit

really chan is probably the most simple and direct of the buddhas teachings, it stresses direct experience over belief and the practitioners are to base nothing on faith alone

amitabha

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Zazen

chan isnt where "buddhism met taoism" for one, buddhism was already in china before bodhidarma arrived

bodhidarma was NOT the first patriarch of chan he was i believe the 28th(going all the way back to buddha), i have the lineage somewhere but not going into that..

bodhidarma was the first patriarch of the chan lineage in china though

chan was brought to china via bodhidarma who settled down in shaolin temple(a buddhist temple founded by ba tuo)

chan, taoism and confucianism were all influential to each other and chan or "zen" has branched out to many different cultures other then china and japan

i personally liked vaj's first interpretation of chan, the lima bean though is usually replaced with a mango or some other kind of popular fruit

really chan is probably the most simple and direct of the buddhas teachings, it stresses direct experience over belief and the practitioners are to base nothing on faith alone

amitabha

Namaste zazen,

actually.. it is exactly where the two met, according to my sources

i've got quite an interesting history on the two that i'd be happy to post if you are interested.

it will take me a little while to compose it all though.... it's quite long and involved.

when i'm speaking of the Patriarchs of Ch'an, i start at Bodhidharma, not Buddha and since Ch'an is a Chinese word, i presumed that was self evident

[Zazen]

"actually.. it is exactly where the two met, according to my sources "

get better sources

"i've got quite an interesting history on the two that i'd be happy to post if you are interested"

well..a history isnt neccesarily the history, but of course id love to hear what youve got to say..you dont have to post an article or anything just write what you can as concise as possible

regardless, historys and theorys and whatever can only go so far(while atttempting to expound truth about the subject at hand)

for example, there are some scholars who believe chan was originated from taoism, because of their similarities, but thats just a superficial understanding of the subject really and bad scholarship imho

"when i'm speaking of the Patriarchs of Ch'an, i start at Bodhidharma, not Buddha and since Ch'an is a Chinese word, i presumed that was self evident"

i dont understand why youd presume that when chan is just a word, the direct heart to heart transmission is what matters, not the word which was translated from sanskrit used to describe the shaolin monks spiritual cultivation

amitabha

[zenmonk_genryu]

Zen Buddhism is a practical body/mind liberation training, as is Buddhism generally, emphasising meditation, direct experience of the Absolute and it's integration into daily life.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Zazen

"actually.. it is exactly where the two met, according to my sources "

get better sources

namaste zazen,

thanks for the post.

my sources are quite good on this as they are the actual Taoist texts that reflect the changes.

"i've got quite an interesting history on the two that i'd be happy to post if you are interested"

well..a history isnt neccesarily the history, but of course id love to hear what youve got to say..you dont have to post an article or anything just write what you can as concise as possible

regardless, historys and theorys and whatever can only go so far(while atttempting to expound truth about the subject at hand)

you are correct, they are histories of the texual development of Taoist texts and thus are only relevant to that subejct, however, it becomes quite clear when one has an understanding of the Ch'an Sutras and compares the useage of certain symbols in the Taoist texts. i shall endeavor to complete the post in a timely fashion

i dont understand why youd presume that when chan is just a word, the direct heart to heart transmission is what matters, not the word which was translated from sanskrit used to describe the shaolin monks spiritual cultivation

amitabha

er.. since the word "Ch'an" is Chinese the presumtion in the discussion was that we were speaking of the lineage known as Ch'an, of which, Bodhidharma is said to be the first Patriarch. it is used in this case as a method to distinguish the Chinese from the Indian and Japanese flavors of this school, that is all.

[xamnzero]

[Pathless]

If I may ( Susma), the following is a quote from Hagakure, the Book of the Samurai, which I find very Zen:

"The proper manner of calligraphy is nothing other than not being careless, but in this way one's writing will simply be sluggish and stiff. One should go beyond this and depart from the norm. This principle applies to all things."

The essence of Zen, I feel, lies in the expression of the universal in the acute, microscopic details of mundane life. The idea is to jar people into realization with both absurdity and poignancy.

[Pet Zepi]

Originally Posted by xamnzero

What is Zen?

What is Zen.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Pet Zepi

What is Zen.

an appropriate question.

[I, Brian]

I think it is the answer the question.

[ISFP]

i had the honor of visiting this neat Zen temple in Bloomington Indiana this summer. i was expecting an imposing pagoda-like structure, and found this cool old mid-west farm house instead, with a little vegetable garden, and a few cats. i was expecting something totally different, and drove past it a few times.

zen is forgetting the pagoda, and finding the farm house.