What Is Truth?The Great Historical Question Answered.

[Curios Mike]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the ability to prove God exist is not nesisarily through science, or a copy right. But the impact he has in your life. But this can only happen if you 1st believe he exist.

1 John 5:9
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
NKJV

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the ability to prove God exist is not nesisarily through science, or a copy right. But the impact he has in your life. But this can only happen if you 1st believe he exist.

1 John 5:9
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
NKJV

I think Mike that that is the beauty of God. One does not have to believe He exists, in order for Him to act in one's life.

v/r

Q

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

I was taught as a boy that the Bible is the word of God.

In college, I found out that it was written by men.

I think it really depends on what you mean by "the Word of God."

Before the world was created, the Word already existed; He was with God, and He was the same as God. John 1:1

What this says is that the Word itself is God -- God is His own Word. The Bible also says that Jesus was God's Word.

The Word was in the world, and though God made the world through Him, yet the world did not recognise Him. He came to His own country, but His own people did not receive Him. John 1:10-11

Bible therefore cannot be regarded as "the Word of God" because the Bible itself is not God, and God is His own Word. So if the Bible is not the Word of God, what is it? I think the correct way to think of the Bible is to say that it is a collection of writings by people who discovered God. They discovered who God was and wrote about Him. They were intimate with God and were what you could call "true believers" in the sense that what they wrote about God was truthful.

The "Truth" we're concerned about is about God. The Bible didn't come as a book of science or history. It came as a book about God. It's aim is not to convey scientific or historical truth, but the Truth about God.

Of course, many people have claimed to speak on God's behalf, so we have to distinguish between those who spoke/wrote the Truth about God and those who were fakes. So how do we know? We read and listen to what they say. God is a living person with personality. If we know what kind of God we have, then we know what kinds of writings He would inspire people to write.

I think the books of the Bible (Old and New Testaments) were chosen because it was believed that these were the books that contained the Truth about God and His Kingdom. The Jewish Rabbis and Early Church leaders who canonised it believed the writings to have been inspired by God to bring us all back to Him and His Kingdom (our home).

I think that's the Truth about the Truth. We don't belong in this world. We belong somewhere else. God wants to bring us back to that the home where we really belong. The Bible was meant to lead us back to God and that Home Sweet Home.

Jesus, the Word of God, came to tell us this Truth about the Truth.

It's all about God and Home Sweet Home.

[wil]

God is a living person with personality.

???

[mee]

Like his Father Jehovah, Jesus Christ is "full of undeserved kindness and truth." (Joh 1:14; Eph 4:21) While on earth, he always spoke the truth as he had received it from his Father. (Joh 8:40, 45, 46) "He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1Pe 2:22) Jesus represented things as they really were. Besides being ‘full of truth,’ Jesus was himself "the truth," and truth came through him. He declared: "I am the way and the truth and the life." (Joh 14:6) And the apostle John wrote: "The Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ."—Joh 1:17

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by wil

Quote: God is a living person with personality.

???

If you're confused, what I was saying was that while the Bible may have been written by men, maybe this is the big secret in the Bible. The authors "discovered" God.

The world is full of religions, full of different ways of looking at the meaning of life, the purpose of life, etc. Buddhism, Yoga, New Age, Islam, etc. There are also many different concepts of God. Religions have been with us since the beginning of the human race, so these issues have been around for thousands of years.

It may be that the authors of the Bible realised that in the midst of all these religions, there was only one correct concept of God. These were the people who discovered "The Truth about God." They were the ones who truly understood God. This is what I mean by "discovering" God. From a Christian point of view, these people could have been Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Paul, Peter, James and John. Many more could be included in this list, including those who aren't prophets or apostles.

Jesus said that "God is a Spirit, and His people must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)

A lot of Christian leaders can really get Christianity mixed up with politics, or start being legalistic about what we're allowed to do and what we should not do. There's those that think that Christianity is about whether President George Bush should declare war against countries harbouring terrorists, or whether abortion should be legal or if homosexuals should be allowed to marry. How does that align with the Way of Christ? I read Romans, 1/2 Corinthians, Galatians, .. . . 1/2 Peter and 1/2/3 John and I wonder how these ideas could come from Christianity?

When I said that thing about God being "a living person" it was to say that God isn't just a principle. Some people think of God as a principle of good, rather than someone who actually has a mind of His own. Instead of God actually existing, some people think it's us human beings working together with their good will that "create God" rather than God actually having been around all along.

It's a bit like the New Age notion of "God is everything." The New Age philosophy is that good and evil don't really exist. It teaches that we're all part of a "System of Life" that is evolving to some future form of perfection. In the New Age philosophy, God doesn't create us, we create God. Imagine that you're God and you create humans. The humans you create then turn their backs on You and say that you didn't really create them -- No, they created You!!!! That would really hurt.

Our concept of God really really matters to God. He is personal. My point was that in the midst of all these religions with their varying notions of God, the authors of the Bible probably got it right. They got it right because they understood God for what He truly was.

He is a Spirit, not something we build with our own hands. We didn't create Him; we discovered Him. The prophets discovered Him first, so they wrote about Him so that we never have to go far to find Him. All we need to do is read the Bible.

This may well be the Truth about the Truth.

[wil]

I'm so glad you answered I dearly hoped we weren't back to that larger than life anthropormorphic being throwing plagues and lightning bolts from sunday school...

The humans you create then turn their backs on You and say that you didn't really create them -- No, they created You!!!! That would really hurt.

Now it would hurt, if 'he' would have human emotions and not be above all that...but I think we both allow a little more credit than that.

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I think it really depends on what you mean by "the Word of God."

Hi, Saltmeister.

What I mean is that the Bible is the word (lower case "w") that comes from God, and not the Word (capital "W") of God, the Logos, the "in the beginning"-ness of Jesus.

Most of what you say is true, I think. At least what you said about the book.

I challenge you, however, on your thinking about God's nature. Here's a quote from The Cloud of Unknowing, written by a 14th century English mystic:

"Shall I, a gnat, which dances in Thy Ray, dare to be reverent?

I like this quote a lot. It reminds me of how much bigger God is than any of our conceptions, either as individuals or as societies, cultures, and/or civilizations.

God may, indeed, be a personality, but I suspect that it's only a ruse to get us to speak to him. Sort of like the scene at the end of Contact, in which Jody Foster's character is walking a beach with a being that looks like her father. The alien from an advanced civilization tells her that he/it is appearing to her in this form because "it's better for you this way."

Do you ever wonder if we'd really be able to take it if God revealed his true nature to us?

~ ~ ~

Hm, we're off topic here. Evidences in support of creationism is the proper subject. I won't try to obliquely connect my thoughts here to our central discussion, but - since I'm already this far into it (^__~), I'll share one more quote, which goes rather the other direction (i.e., supporting the "God is a personality" concept).

An "impersonal God"-- well and good. A subjective God of beauty, truth and goodness, inside our own heads -- better still. A formless life-force surging through us, a vast power which we can tap -- best of all. But God Himself, alive, pulling at the other end of the cord, perhaps, approaching an infinite speed, the hunter, king, husband -- that is quite another matter. There comes a moment when the children who have been playing at burglars hush suddenly: was that a real footstep in the hall? There comes a moment when people who have been dabbling in religion ("Man's search for God!") suddenly draw back. Supposing we really found Him? We never meant it to come to that! Worse still, supposing He had found us? --C. S. Lewis

This quote, btw, is from this page:

http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/godquotes.htm

There are some interesting thoughts by some interesting people there.

peace, and -- as Bartles and James used to say -- thanks for your support.

press

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Hi, Bandit.



Well, if you thought someone was in danger of driving off a cliff, you'd try to keep her from it, right? Would the driver, thinking nothing was wrong, say you had an agenda?

hmmm.....

possibly. i saw a movie where this lady put sleeping pills into peoples drinks & they drove off the cliff...she definately had an agenda to kill them so she could get rich...but she eventually got caught.

cant remember what all we were talking about here...seemed like it was about the bible.
i dont question the bible being true. there are very few scriptures that i question. my questions come from believing it & searching for the wisdom of God that is hidden in it, not questioning to try & prove it wrong. from a simple historical perspective, i dont think it has ever been wrong- but then others will have a different view than i do.
if you want to question it that way, that is up to you. i certainly am not going to try & stop or convince anyone of anything.

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i dont question the bible being true. there are very few scriptures that i question. my questions come from believing it & searching for the wisdom of God that is hidden in it, not questioning to try & prove it wrong. from a simple historical perspective, i dont think it has ever been wrong- but then others will have a different view than i do.

if you want to question it that way, that is up to you. i certainly am not going to try & stop or convince anyone of anything.

Your siggy says . . .

He Looked beyond my fault and saw my need.

Perhaps that's the best answer to whether or not the Bible is true, or God exists, or any of these questions that plague us endlessly.

peace,

press

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Your siggy says . . .

He Looked beyond my fault and saw my need.

Perhaps that's the best answer to whether or not the Bible is true, or God exists, or any of these questions that plague us endlessly.

peace,

press

i think faith is a very big thing but not easy to grasp in the beginning of our lives. but after we start excercising faith & trust in God, then we begin to see things clearer.
some things we just dont know & we see different possibilities. when that happens, i put those things i dont understand off to the side for awhile & then over time they make a bit more sense, if we keep the right approach & a good attitude.
in one place the bible says "above all thy getting, get understanding"

so we keep seeking for truth with the right attitude & we will find many truths. i personally dont feel it is possible to know everything about everything while in the flesh. OTH, i also think it is possible to become obsessed with certain issues & get off track on the things that are important, i.e., the things that make a difference 'now'.

For example take this verse in Hebrews. One day it hit me out of the blue. i have always known the definition of faith, but when i put the NOW into it, i came to realize that it meant faith right now. not tomorrow or next year, but right now. that is when we find the substance that faith is about & i call it 'NOW FAITH'.
Heb11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

then i learned, i can have faith in myself & in others before i see them achieve, so it was not hard to have faith in things that i could not see but trust that the outcome would be sufficient. of course this does not happen over night but it surely does grow over time. so faith is very important & i believe faith is a truth.
then when we can't understand it all, He looked beyond my fault and saw my need- i learned that His grace is sufficient.

then in this verse it explains how, when we dont have faith we cant please God but when we do seek Him, He is a rewarder if we are diligent & dont stop seeking. so this is true also to ourselves, because we cant please ourselves if we dont have faith in ourself. so, for the things i cant understand, i cast those things upon Him & just trust that God knows what He is doing & come to find out that He does know what He is doing.

KJV Hebrews 11:6
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

then this verse explains one way to get faith:

THE WORD OF GOD BRINGS FAITH
KJV Romans 10:17
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

i also think we would make a pretty good team doing apologetics because you have an sincere approach & i think you use an honest heart.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by wil

I'm so glad you answered I dearly hoped we weren't back to that larger than life anthropormorphic being throwing plagues and lightning bolts from sunday school...Now it would hurt, if 'he' would have human emotions and not be above all that...but I think we both allow a little more credit than that.

I believe he does have so-called "emotions" but not like our fickle human ones. He may not hurt as we do, but it would, however, be insulting and blasphemous. While God would not be angry because of this, we would be committing an offence against the Highest Being in the universe, who is also our Creator.

It's like assaulting a police officer. The police provide us with protection, but if we punch them in the face, we may be arrested and prosecuted. It's not the police officer that wants to do that. The Law says it should be done. The police officer has no power or authority to say he doesn't want you incarcerated.

By the way, assaulting a police officer is a criminal offence.

God is not above the Law, He is the Law.

Sometimes He is personal, sometimes impersonal. He is personal when we love Him, and impersonal when we are against Him.

All legal systems in this world are ideally impersonal because human governments and authorities have limitations. But God is infinite and knows everything. He's got the power and ability to deal absolute justice because of what He knows and can prove.

With all governments and authorities, knowledge is a prerequisite for legitimacy. A person who has a lot of knowledge of a situation has a lot more control over that situation. Ability to control a situation is the key to legitimacy. A greater ability to control a situation means a person has more freedom with he can do.

American forensics technologies mean that in America, you can a identify criminal by his fingerprints and DNA and even release innocent people from prison by identifying the true offender. You can hold a politician responsible for what he has said in private through audio recordings. Anyone heard of the Watergate Scandal?

American military technology means that U.S. military personnel have more information on where the enemy is and whether there are civilians in the target area. Satellites set up around the world allow it to see around the whole world. Possible terrorist activities can be investigated and monitored by examining documents, video surveillance, tracking movement of cash and forensics. This allows them to ascertain whether a person is involved in terrorist activities and allows them to raid the home of that person and charge them.

Because God knows us, being personal with us can serve the purposes of absolute justice because of what He knows. He is also our Creator. It's when we don't respect Him that He can then be impersonal. It wouldn't have anything to do with being hurt. It's because we have rejected His offer of mercy in return for us dedicating ourselves to His purposes.

I suppose with the police officer, well, I think he does have some say on whether he wants to arrest you. He may choose not to arrest you because he knows you personally. That's because it's between you and him. Once he arrests, you, however, you are entirely within the hands of the Law. He can't free you after that.

[wil]

God is not above the Law, He is the Law.

I don't reject your believing this...I just don't personally buy it.

To me God is... God is Love... God is Forgiveness...

Not God forgives or loves, but is love and is forgiveness.

Jesus said 70 times 7...to me not 490...but a number so large indicating whatever, you just forgive.

That forgiveness wouldn't send anyone to hell, it would allow them to create their own hell and learn from it.

That love wouldn't punish folks for sin, but allow the sin to wear on them and punish themselves. It doesn't always happen immediately...maybe it will take a lifetime or ten, but eventually we will learn.

But get emotional, angry, jealous, upset? Because I didn't make the sign of the cross right? or bow my head? or pray correctly? or take off (or keep on) my hat?

I just don't think so. To me, God gave me free will, and personal responsibility and the authority to run or ruin my life as I see fit...no intervention needed.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

I don't reject your believing this...I just don't personally buy it.

To me God is... God is Love... God is Forgiveness...

Not God forgives or loves, but is love and is forgiveness.

Jesus said 70 times 7...to me not 490...but a number so large indicating whatever, you just forgive.

That forgiveness wouldn't send anyone to hell, it would allow them to create their own hell and learn from it.

That love wouldn't punish folks for sin, but allow the sin to wear on them and punish themselves. It doesn't always happen immediately...maybe it will take a lifetime or ten, but eventually we will learn.

But get emotional, angry, jealous, upset? Because I didn't make the sign of the cross right? or bow my head? or pray correctly? or take off (or keep on) my hat?

I just don't think so. To me, God gave me free will, and personal responsibility and the authority to run or ruin my life as I see fit...no intervention needed.

And by showing kindness to your enemy you cause heaping coals to be on his head...

[wil]

Namaste Quahom1,

Thanks for the diversion

And by showing kindness to your enemy you cause heaping coals to be on his head.

too much fun...can we explore, circumnambulate and elaborate?

I agree, not virtually, but agree. Everytime I have turned the other cheek, expressed love where it 'appeared' out of place, shown kindness to the 'enemy'.

The response was confusion, apology, retreat....

One thing I've discovered, that personal responsibility, the mirror concept...when your really allow them to come into play you discover you don't have to forgive when you don't blame, and you don't have to show kindness to enemies you don't create...or you find the enemies are within....and that heap of coals has eliminated them....cleansed by fire. Satan (negative thought energy) get ye behind me....