What is Truth?!

[Faithfulservant]

I agree that he's been a little aggressive with pushing the message of the gospels but I also thought that this forum was an ok place for discussion of Christianity from a Christians point of view.. whether it be apologetics bible discussion evangalism or theory..Would he have spoken like that in comparative religion I can understand that sort of rebuke but I do not believe that it was completely warranted here. To him... those things are fact and many Christians on this forum believe the same way he does. Maybe some definition other than Quahoms or Brians needs to be made because according to Q and Brians definition of what the Christian forum is for and how its to be used.. I dont see how he did anything wrong. The topic of this thread is what is truth.. his posts were what the truth was to him. People do not have to agree with him.

another 2 cents of mine.

(Faithful, I love you like a sister. The point is not his opinion, the point is what he is doing with his opinion, and his attempting to convert others. He is being very disrespectful and intolerant, and that is not acceptable. -jt3)

[Dor]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

This is a place for dialogue, for respectful interaction between faiths, and not limited solely to Christianity."

The Christianity board is for the discussion of Christianity and issues pertaining to Christianity. http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ead.php?t=2414


If I look at that post I cant see where he said anything for you to come down on him for...now if yall truely want to take all refrence to Biblical scriptures and what Christianity is all about off the Christianity board then let me know.

(Yes to the first part, no the second. And my reasons were very clearly spelled out. This forum is much larger than the Christianity boards alone. If the intent of anyone is hatred disguised as love, it is neither Christian nor welcome. We have had enough problems with self-proclaimed know-it-all prophets lately. Knowledge's posts do not invite discussion, respectful or otherwise. He is telling people what they must believe. You are free to agree with his opinion, I welcome that. But insisting that those who view the Bible or any other religious texts in some way different from his opinion are damned to hell, is not acceptable. If anybody wishes to convert others by standing on a soapbox, you are being politely asked to leave. -jt3)

[Dor]

The fact is, unless they repent and put their trust in Jesus (Born again), they remain unsaved, and thus end up being sincerly wrong!
(Your opinion is not the same as fact, -jt3) Jt3 that isnt opinion to some Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We Christians dont try to save ourselves by good deeds, but instead, we repent, and put our trust in Jesus, the one that paid our fine. Knowing and excepting this truth, has made us redeemed children of God, who now have a relationship with God, and not a religion.
(Again, this is your opinion. This subject has been discussed numerous times throughout this board, and not ALL Christians agree with your conclusions, even "born again" Christians, -jt3) Once again not opinion to bible believers.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Actually, God's Laws were first given to the Jew; for his own reason, but are ment for the whole world!
(Your opinion, and there are countless millions of God loving and truth seeking people who would disagree with you. -jt3) Once again read the Bible from the very beginning it was Gods dealings with the Jewish people throughout.

Are you a good person? Have you ever lied, lusted, stole something, called God's name in vain, wanted what someone else wanted?
(Are you? Have you? -jt3) No man has been, that is why Jesus came.Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Come to Jesus that you may know true righteousness!
(Unacceptable, -jt3)1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The truth that ALL need a Savior is written on your heart. Look at yourself in the mirrior of God's Devine Law -- The Ten Commendments. Jugde yourself with the Law, and listen to your conscience.
(Considering the Ten Commandments do not even mention Jesus, and the FACT that the Gospels claim Jesus said there are only two commandments, means this is your opinion. -jt3) Read the Bible Matt chp 5 the sermon on the mount and he covers the ten commandments...the two he claimed, if you think about it, will cover all 10 of them anyway.

I want to remind you that Jesus said time and again that Salavation is ONLY through him. This is the underlining mesesage of the WHOLE Bible, incidentially.
(Considering that Jesus makes His debut in the New Testament, are you implying that the Jews, let alone any of the rest of God's creation, are not "worthy" of salvation? If not, it sure seems that way. Rather judgemental, don't you think? -jt3) Well, he did say that many times if you read it.

Actually what I thought was Judgemental was the blatant attack on someone for posting Biblical beliefs on the Christianity board. As I said if a belief in the bible and Jesus being the Truth, the Light and the ONLY way is unwelcome on the Christianity board please let me know!!!!!!!!!!

[Bandit]

every thread in this Christian forum almost needs to be started with ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE or ACCORDING TO THE BLOOD OF JESUS.

as i said from the start what is truth, can mean anything & is not appropriate to have the christians be forced to defend or deny what they believe is truth.
the bible believers are expected to be tolerant to every wind of doctrine, but when it comes to Jesus being the truth & the way, we are quite often not allowed to speak it.
the believers are challenged & confronted daily to defend themsleves.

This is the EXACT thing everyone of the apostles were shut down for!

DO NOT TEACH OR PREACH IN THE NAME OR AUTHORITY OF JESUS.

the death of Jesus is for the remission of sin. He was not only crucified but he was BEATEN, tortured, mocked, spit on, stripped of his diginity & pride.
Jesus was innocent & without sin! & he laid down his life for sin & to redeem man.
if people do not want to accept it, ---oh well.

so what we have is a world who likes the ITCHY EAR DOCTRINE, the HOOTCIE KOOTCHIE Love doctrine. tell me a lie & I will believe it. Tell me about LOVE but falsely accuse the brothers. WOE.

Tell me about Jesus & his blood for remission of sin & you get confronted & despised.

Jesus is the way, the light & the TRUTH. & from what I can see he is the ONLY way.
I dont see Buddah or Muhammed or mystics or Krishner or any other person laying down there life for me, & NO ONE will ever take Jesus away from me. Neither will they take Jesus awya from my brothers & sisters .

Here is some truth-
Christians are the most persecuted of all religions to date. there are more than 200 million bible believers who confess Jesus in the world today who are beaten, exiled, imprisoned & charged falsely.
While I am aware there are lies in some Christianity, there are many more lies in the world, politics, economics & in false doctrines that compromise the bible & the Lord Jesus.

They are not asked "Do you serve God". they are asked do you serve Jesus or have a bible. & when they confess, they are hauled off to prison or executed.

Dont put WHAT IS TRUTH, in the Christian forum & expect believers to deny that Jesus is the way & the TRUTH & the life.

[lunamoth]

I would hate to see Christian viewpoints silenced on the Christian forum. I didn't look to see from where Jt3 pulled all the quotes, but if they were not on the Christianity board I would agree they were out of place. However, overly forceful pressing of one's viewpoint, unless in response to direct questioning, does seem to go against the spirit of a comparative religion forum.

I like the diversity of voices here and learn a lot from everyone, but I also wouldn't want things to devolve into a free-for-all.

peace,
lunamoth

(Thank you Luna, that is precisely what I am at. -jt3, and yes the points I took issue with were in this very thread.)

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Tell me about Jesus & his blood for remission of sin & you get confronted & despised.

Here is some truth-
Christians are the most persecuted of all religions to date. there are more than 200 million bible believers who confess Jesus in the world today who are beaten, exiled, imprisoned & charged falsely.
While I am aware there are lies in some Christianity, there are many more lies in the world, politics, economics & in false doctrines that compromise the bible & the Lord Jesus.

They are not asked "Do you serve God". they are asked do you serve Jesus or have a bible. & when they confess, they are hauled off to prison or executed.

Dont put WHAT IS TRUTH, in the Christian forum & expect believers to deny that Jesus is the way & the TRUTH & the life.

Whoa, Bandit. That was hot.

You know, you are a Christian who knows how Jesus has saved your life. I have met few Christians who are like that. The Christians that I meet on a regular basis are those who use the doctrine to be heard. They don't pray to rightly divide the information, however, preaching for Christ makes them feel important. Where they get no respect, they use the Bible to gain their respect. I hope you understand what I mean. These are the Christians that are persecuted. Jesus is light. If sharing the doctrine with someone doesn't bring them light, then they are not ready to recieve the information, the seed is being planted, or the information is not rightly divided. You've seen Christians that want to come at you and tell you that you are going to hell right now because you aren't living right. Then they want to pressure you to come to God right now because you can go to hell any second. That kind of information is not taken lightly. Jesus instructed how to do this stuff but noooo, every body wants a quick ticket to heaven by believing that they are doing something right because they are about to die like Jesus did. Jesus came to fulfill the Law. He didn't instruct all of his apostles to do it too.

[Knowledge]

For: Dor

(Your opinion is not the same as fact, -jt3) Jt3 that isnt opinion to some Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I dont get what you're saying. You just gave a scripture that proves my point. We MUST be born again. The born again experience occurs when we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. So again, whats your point?

(Again, this is your opinion. This subject has been discussed numerous times throughout this board, and not ALL Christians agree with your conclusions, even "born again" Christians, -jt3) Once again not opinion to bible believers.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You are aware that you cannot refute my claims by agree with me, right? Once again you've proved my point. That we are saved soley by Grace, and not of our own works.

(Your opinion, and there are countless millions of God loving and truth seeking people who would disagree with you. -jt3) Once again read the Bible from the very beginning it was Gods dealings with the Jewish people throughout.

Really? Was Abram a Jew/Hebrew? Wait, let me answer. No, he was not! And, he was called a friend of God, and his name was changed to Abraham.

(Are you? Have you? -jt3) No man has been, that is why Jesus came.Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Are you reading what I say, or are just picking out certain things to speak on? If you've read what I said as a whole, you'd know that I agree with what you said here. I even stated that NO ONE IS GOOD BUT GOD!

Considering the Ten Commandments do not even mention Jesus, and the FACT that the Gospels claim Jesus said there are only two commandments, means this is your opinion. -jt3) Read the Bible Matt chp 5 the sermon on the mount and he covers the ten commandments...the two he claimed, if you think about it, will cover all 10 of them anyway.

Someone needs to study the bible as a whole! First of all, I should say that like any other book, the Bible has the answers in the back. The NT tells us that the Ten Commandments were given to bring a sinner to the awareness of his/her sin, and to show us our NEED for a Savior. Secondly, Jesus didnt say that they are only 2 commandment. He said that the 2 MOST important are, Love God, then love mankind as you love yourself. Do this, he said, and you will fufill the whole Law. Pay attention to what you read!

Considering that Jesus makes His debut in the New Testament, are you implying that the Jews, let alone any of the rest of God's creation, are not "worthy" of salvation? If not, it sure seems that way. Rather judgemental, don't you think? -jt3) Well, he did say that many times if you read it.

Jesus made his debute as "Jesus" in the NT. I agree with. But, he was always there, even in the OT. He was with Moses in the desert, and with the 3 Hebrew boys in the furnice. All this is recored in the NT, by the way. Check it out. That said, yes I am implying that humanity doesnt deserve salvation. None of us can say we deserve God. But, arent you glad that God forgives, and has made a way out for us? Thank God for Jesus and the Cross, huh?

(Now see, this is acceptable. This post is an example of discussion, not force feeding opinion. As long as the posts remain in this vein, I will stay out of it. I will caution though about the last part of this post, generalities when talking about the world "deserving salvation" seem acceptable, but when this degenerates to finger-pointing at specific groups, it is no longer acceptable, -jt3)

[path_of_one]

Just wanted to chime in here and say I don't think any Christian viewpoints should be silenced on this forum. This is the Christianity forum, so it should be safe for Christians of all viewpoints, from fundamental to liberal, traditional to mystic, to express their views. Of course all Christians don't agree on a lot of points, because there is a lot of variety in Christianity. But all who read the Bible and follow Christ should be allowed to speak, in my opinion. I do think that where it gets dicey is when Christians accuse one another of not being "real" Christians because there are these disagreements. Personally, I have a pretty thick skin so I don't mind it- I'm used to it in fact- but I do appreciate the overall respectful dialogue here.

(path of one, welcome to CR! For the most part I agree with what you say here. There is a fine line across which not to step. -jt3)

[Knowledge]

For: Path of One

And I suppose that you somehow have God's commentary on how the Bible is to be interpreted? Sorry, but I don't think any of us humans on earth has God's interpretation.

Correct assumption - no human has has God's interpretation. That is why God wants us to be born again. Only when that occurs, we will have God in us teaching us truth. This is the relationship with God Jesus came to give us.

All we have is the Word, and it is up to us to interpret it. Scriptures do not interpret themselves. If they did, people wouldn't need pastors, biblical scholars, translators, Bible dictionaries, or Bible studies. We can call upon the Holy Spirit to help us understand

The Scripture say that when we're born again, we will have the Holy Spirt, and he will prove and show us truth. When we're born again, we will KNOW truth, and the truth will set us free. When we're truely born again, we'll know the people of God, and we wont have any need for teachers because God will show us what he means. When we're not born again, we'll be confused with many answers, and left to rely on our own understanding.

Where in scripture did Jesus preach intolerance of others? The most he ever said was that he was sent for the Jewish people, and that his disciples were not to enter Gentile towns. They didn't kill him because he was intolerant. They killed him because he was gaining a large following and the elite (both Jewish and Roman) were worried that he would cause social and political problems.

LOL<*edited for disrespect, jt3> Jesus was killed because he spoke the truth. The Lord was intolerant to other ways. Why? Because He knew religon only leads people to Hell. Foreal man, the roads to hell is paved with religious people who thought they were to good for a Savior. There is NONE Good! Rememeber, Jesus didnt say that he was "a way" to God, but "THE WAY." That would be considered pretty intolerant to those not in the know.

I know quite a few non-Christians that bear the fruit discussed in the Galatians scripture above. A great example we all can relate to is Ghandi. He was not Christian, but he exhibited all the fruits of the Spirit.

No bad tree bares bad fruit, Jesus said. And, he didnt lie. That said, baring fruit isnt all there is. There is still the fact of admitting to oneself that we are not good by God standards. We NEED a Savior. We Must be born again! If you continue to beleive you're good, you're calling God a liar.

And as I am a mystic

You said you have Jesus, and said that you're a mystic. <*edited for disrespect, jt3> Please, dont think Im judging you - I cant! (*Ah, but you really are and deceiving yourself in the process, -jt3) Im just saying that you're contradicting yourself. Thats all.

Actually, Jesus said: "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15).

If you're gonna qoute the Lord, please be sure to understand what he was talking about in context. Jesus, as well as the whole bible say over and again, that Jesus is the ONLY way to God.

Again, as I said good does not equal perfect.

No, Good by God's standards equate to being sinless. Im talking about God's standards here <*edited for disrespect, -jt3>.

All right, in Matthew alone we have:
Follow the commandments 5:19, 19:16-21
Love your enemies 5:44

You typed all that (I left out some), <*edited for disrespect, -jt3>. Jesus said if we keep the Law we shall live. Yet, the Bible says that NO ONE can keep the whole law. So, if none can keep the whole Law, how can we get to heaven? <*edited for proselytising, -jt3>

I don't think we're saved by works. Or by our faith, because we all have had times we doubt. I believe we're saved and enter God's presence purely out of the goodness, grace, and mercy of God. I do believe that cultivating a personal relationship with God yields good fruit, as Jesus taught.

<*edited for disrespect, -jt3> Here's a scripture that you may want to memorize: It is better to trust God, than to rely on your own understanding.

[juantoo3]

Knowledge, it is apparent that either you did not read my earlier post to you about how to conduct yourself, or you have deliberately ignored it. I strongly urge you to go back and find the recent post I made to you in this thread and read it, and read the comments I made above. You are being monitored closely because your methods are not acceptable. You are rude, arrogant and judgemental. IF you can conduct yourself politely and respectfully, I will leave you alone. If not, you will be asked to leave.

[Knowledge]

juantoo3,

You called me Rude. Why? I never said anything mean to you or anyone else. You called me arrogant. Why? Is it because Im confident in the Lord? You called me judgemental. I dont get why you say this. I tell you the truth - God has no favorites, we're all sinners, and we all need a Savior, including me. So, how is that being judgemental?

Let me know the deal,

Knowledge

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Knowledge

The Scripture say that when we're born again, we will have the Holy Spirt, and he will prove and show us truth. When we're born again, we will KNOW truth, and the truth will set us free.

Yep, and I am born again and have Christ in my life, so I believe I have the Holy Spirit to guide me.

LOL! Do you actually read the Bible? Jesus was killed because he spoke the truth. The Lord was intolerant to other ways.

I think it's pretty obvious through my use of scripture in my posts that I read my Bible. It's offensive and rude to imply that I do not just because you don't agree with my interpretations of the scriptures. You have your right to your interpretation, and I have mine, and you don't see me questioning your validity as a Christian or laughing at you. I also believe that Jesus was killed because he spoke truth, but not because he was intolerant, but because the truth would change people and their relationship to their society and the people in power.

No bad tree bares bad fruit, Jesus said. And, he didnt lie. That said, baring fruit isnt all there is. There is still the fact of admitting to oneself that we are not good by God standards. We NEED a Savior. We Must be born again! If you continue to beleive you're good, you're calling God a liar.

This is contradictory. According to your own words, we receive the Holy Spirit to help us know the truth when we become born again. The Holy Spirit also results in our bearing the "fruits of the Spirit." So, the only way we can bear the fruits of the Spirit is to have the Holy Spirit, which would indicate that we are born again, and hence also have the Spirit to help us know the truth.

You said you have Jesus, and said that you're a mystic. Of course you do know that the Bible would consider you confused, right?

The definition of mysticism (from the dictionary):
1 : the experience of union or direct communion with ultimate reality
2 : the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)

So, being a Christ-following mystic is to seek direct knowledge of God, Jesus, and spiritual truth. It is to seek communion with God. It is to believe that we can personally experience God and have intuitive insight into scripture.

Prove with scripture that we are not supposed to seek a real and personal experience of God. Isn't that the whole point? To know Jesus and God personally, and cultivate a relationship with them?

If you're gonna qoute the Lord, please be sure to understand what he was talking about in context. Jesus, as well as the whole bible say over and again, that Jesus is the ONLY way to God.

And how do you take this scripture? Are you saying somehow the context changes what Jesus said? Care to give your interpretation of this particular scripture, and the scriptural basis to back it up? I'm completely open to reinterpretation, but I do expect it to be backed up with scriptural, linguistic, or other evidence. It doesn't do much for me to have someone I don't even know just tell me my interpretation is wrong, especially when my interpretation was literal.

No, Good by God's standards equate to being sinless. Im talking about God's standards here homie.

God called some people in the OT righteous (which to me is equated with being good) and they were not sinless, and they also lived before Jesus. For example:
"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
These are the generations of noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." (Genesis 6:8)

And I am not a homie or a guy, just FIY. LOL. I'm actually a gal.

You typed all that (I left out some), and still dont understand. Jesus said if we keep the Law we shall live.

Well, if you'd like to contribute a cohesive interpretation based on scripture and how it relates to the aforementioned scripture as well as the numerous others in the gospels, I'm more than happy to meditate on it and take it to God in prayer. So far, you've mostly just repeated yourself and said that I'm wrong because you say I'm wrong. And a good deal of those scriptures do not deal with the "law" as it were, but are dealing with forgiveness, compassion, attachment to possessions, humility, etc. and not directly with the commandments. The law was the 613(?) moral rules that the Jews lived by.

There you go thinking again. Here's a scripture that you may want to memorize: It is better to trust God, than to rely on your own understanding.

As I said before, I don't claim to have The Absolute Truth. There are good reasons why I say "think," "believe," "experience." And also, thinking is employing our brain, which God gave us so that we can read the scripture and meditate on it. I do not think that thought and contemplation is evil.

I trust God and know Jesus, and so I trust that my understanding has been informed by the Holy Spirit. It is only by the grace of God that we are able to catch even a glimpse of God.

My own understanding is what I lean on when I seek scientific truth.
God is what I lean on when I seek spiritual truth.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards to all!

It seems that my moderating is being questioned by some here. My first response is to ignore the questions. But the members here who do make an effort to be respectful deserve an explanation. I edited Knowledge's post above, to show what it is I am talking about. As you can see, it is not his/her beliefs that concern me. It is the way s/he is conveying those beliefs, and the intolerant attitude that goes with it. I agree with some of his/her post, I disagree with some of his/her post. I did not edit the things I disagree with. I edited the offensive language being used. Name-calling and implication of stupidity are not acceptable. And besides the FACT (by the Code of Conduct) that proselytising is not allowed, why does this person feel the need to "save" other Christians? His opinion is his opinion. It is not fact. It is perfectly acceptable to share his/her opinion. It is not acceptable for him/her to shove it down the throat of somebody who disagrees with him/her.

Intolerance leads to enough war, death, hate and destruction in this world. If you wish to be intolerant, I would suggest this is not the place for you. If, on the other hand, you wish to promote peace, respect and tolerance as Jesus did, (and so many other of God's children), that is what this place is about. And I will defend that to my dying breath against intolerant bigotry, no matter who spouts it, including and especially "Super-Christians."

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God" -Matt. 5:9

I feel the need to note something I feel is very important. This is NOT the Christianity forum, it is the Christianity board on the Comparative-Religion forum. It might seem a small thing, but it is important. There are others of other faiths here as well. And because of that it is not right to be disrespectful in any way, shape or form towards others.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Knowledge

juantoo3,

You called me Rude. Why? I never said anything mean to you or anyone else. You called me arrogant. Why? Is it because Im confident in the Lord? You called me judgemental. I dont get why you say this. I tell you the truth - God has no favorites, we're all sinners, and we all need a Savior, including me. So, how is that being judgemental?

Let me know the deal,

Knowledge

I already have, assuming your eyes are still open and your ears can still hear.

Please note post #29, addressed specifically to you.

[Knowledge]

Path of One,

I have a request to ask of you. Its clear that you and I have different believes on the Bible, so I was wondering if we can debate on certain things. I'll be sure to use scripture to back up my claims, and not to repeat myself, unless I feel it necessary to. Oh, one other thing. I would have never guessed that you was a female. Sorry for ASSuming!

Later,

Knowledge