What Is The Rift About?

InLove · 08-21-2006, 05:22 PM

Hi, and Peace to All Here--

This question has probably been covered somewhere before in CR, but maybe the thread is buried. If it is, it will probably pop up in the references to "Similar Threads". I have not conducted an in-depth search, so I don't know what might be found in those threads. Anyway, it is likely there are lots of new people here since then, and I would venture to say that there's a possibility that some folks who have been here a long time may have a different perspective, as well.

My question is this: Why are the two major political parties in the U.S. currently divided over the issue of the war in Iraq? Is it basically a tax issue or a moral issue? Is it an issue over domestic policy or foreign policy? If it is simply the age-old fight between the parties, then what is the basis for this fight?

I am sure there will be some overlap between morality and taxes, foreign and domestic, and maybe even Democrat or Republican. All I ask is that, in the process of exploring the questions I have asked, that we try to do so in a civil manner. I ask you to think before you type, and let's have a peaceful and informative dialogue, if at all possible. I am here to gather information, not to start a fistfight.

I look forward to your comments.

InPeace,
InLove

Paladin · 08-21-2006, 08:28 PM

I'm not a big fan of war over all, and the war in Iraq has me questioning just what it is this country stand for. As an ex-infantryman, I am very much interested in protecting our interests here and abroad and yet, there is too much about this war, how we were led into it and how it was carried out that I find distasteful at best. As a Democrat I have always had an abiding respect for the Republicans, the party of my Dad, the party of financial responsibillity and even social responsiblity as well. I remember the Nixon administration, and what He tried to do for all americans. But now, I find a deeping credibility gap because of the war of linguistics that has raged for the last several years.

Most americans (less than 50%) are old enough to remember the horrors of the vietnam war, and few pics of how horrible warfare can be have reached the public. The "Collateral Damage" we hear about is much worse than the average person could stand if they were exposed to it.

I am not here to lecture on the rightness or wrongness of war in general, but before the call to arms is sounded, before we send our sons and Daughters off to kill and be killed we need to make damn sure we are aware of what that entails. I'm not sure the current administration really cared about that before they "let loose the dogs of war"

InLove · 08-21-2006, 08:52 PM

Hi, Peace--

Thanks for the response, Paladin.

So are you saying that maybe the majority of Democrats do not think the war is moral, and maybe even do not want their taxes to go toward a cause they do not think is moral?

When I ask this, please consider that I am not being rhetorical. I am trying to understand both or all sides of things. And I am wondering if perhaps my original question is too broad?

InPeace,
InLove

Paladin · 08-21-2006, 08:57 PM

I wouln't speak for the rest of the democrats, just myself. Honestly I think that words like God, Morality, and Just, have little to do with actual warfare. Maybe wars are necessary sometimes, but once you pick up a rifle, or drop a bomb all those niceties go out the window.

jiii · 08-22-2006, 02:33 AM

Quote:

My question is this: Why are the two major political parties in the U.S. currently divided over the issue of the war in Iraq? Is it basically a tax issue or a moral issue? Is it an issue over domestic policy or foreign policy? If it is simply the age-old fight between the parties, then what is the basis for this fight?

paladin-
I am perhaps not too well-versed in American politics (some American I am

). Do you mean that Democrats and Republicans are divided over the war ("two major political parties")? I understand the division to be one that is perhaps, at best, only partly based on bipartisan political doctrine.

In a note, I would add that I happen to think that war is something most honestly appraised without any "gloves". Handling war according to politics or economics is always bound to distract attention from the vicious reality of what of the resulting decisions will affect. I know many people that approach the issue of the war from all three basic standpoints: "pro", "anti", and neutral. I will say that if I were to make a guess, ABSOLUTELY none of these people would know what to do or what to say if they were suddenly drafted to fight. Their reasoning relies heavily upon evading the brutal truths of the battlefield. Much of the reason the war continues has to do with the fact that Americans, by and large, aren't affected by the war in any way. We go about our business and it's as though there is no war happening at all. Frankly, I can't say that I take a specific "political" opinion on the war. I do believe wars are necessary sometimes, but I also question whether or not we use this fact to validate starting wars rather than explaining why so-and-so war took place. Poeple start thinking "wars are necessary", and sometimes have a tendency of "jumping the gun" (excuse the pun). I can say for myself, though, that I am no soldier. If I were somehow drafted to fight in this war, I would be in a state of shock for quite a while. I would be lying if I said that ideas about getting out of the country wouldn't at least show themselves in my head for while. I guess that if I consider it that way, I don't think there is anything about this war I approve of, at all. On paper, it sounds reasonable...MAYBE. But in my living, breathing experience...it is the last thing I would ever care to participate in. My best goes to our troops.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see the rift based upon this: From an intellectual perspective, the war is maybe a valid political decision, but from the stark physical reality of the war, it is an abomination. Very difficult...

Faithfulservant · 08-22-2006, 04:57 AM

not meaning to be glib but dont you think that its strange that on issues like this... the two parties have polar opposite opinions? Its like some strange rule..

Paladin · 08-22-2006, 05:51 AM

I don't think the parties are evenly divided on the war issue, it goes so much deeper than that. The ideas behind conservatism and liberalism go back a very long way. (Read Emersons essay on conservatism to see what I really think) The war is just another political device as far as politicians are concerned, it has been that way since time began. Google Mark Twain's War prayer and you will see even more of how a liberal thinks!

Peace
Mark

China Cat Sunflower · 08-22-2006, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InLove

Hi, and Peace to All Here--

This question has probably been covered somewhere before in CR, but maybe the thread is buried. If it is, it will probably pop up in the references to "Similar Threads". I have not conducted an in-depth search, so I don't know what might be found in those threads. Anyway, it is likely there are lots of new people here since then, and I would venture to say that there's a possibility that some folks who have been here a long time may have a different perspective, as well.

My question is this: Why are the two major political parties in the U.S. currently divided over the issue of the war in Iraq? Is it basically a tax issue or a moral issue? Is it an issue over domestic policy or foreign policy? If it is simply the age-old fight between the parties, then what is the basis for this fight?

I am sure there will be some overlap between morality and taxes, foreign and domestic, and maybe even Democrat or Republican. All I ask is that, in the process of exploring the questions I have asked, that we try to do so in a civil manner. I ask you to think before you type, and let's have a peaceful and informative dialogue, if at all possible. I am here to gather information, not to start a fistfight.

I look forward to your comments.

InPeace,
InLove

I'll just speak for myself and my perspective: I don't think the establishment Democrats gave the war a second thought until they felt the wrath of the party rank-and-file. We haven't forgotten Vietnam, and we don't like watching the Constitution be gutted right in front of our eyes while the rest of the country drinks the Kool-aid. So we got mad and we got vocal. That doesn't mean that the politicos of our Party in Washington aren't still trying to have things both ways, but they're running out of wiggle room. Look what happened to Lieberman.

Chris

InLove · 08-22-2006, 08:54 PM

Thanks everyone, for the informative and civil responses. Lots of input from the Donkey's point of view here--how about some from the Elephant? Or some other Party Animals out there?

By the way, this was pointed out on another thread on this forum. I don't usually post quotes from one thread to another, but in this case, I have been given permission by the poster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Halyard

I may be nitpicking here, but the situation in Iraq is a military engagement approved by Congress and not a declared war. Technically Congress has only declared war on foreign nations eleven times in its history. However, there have been thirteen military engagements approved by Congress.

I just thought that I should correct my mistake.

InPeace,
InLove

wil · 08-22-2006, 09:02 PM

Cynic alert....

President Bush is painted as being big oil, and going to finish his daddy's war.

It is not overly considered as a war....we are taking a regime out of power, and intending on instilling democracy (something this republic does not have).

So the Republicans are backing their fearless leader, and the democrats are separating themselves from him....tis an election year after all....this is all politics as usual.

What isn't commonly being said is the war had/has one purpose. Focus the terrorists on the people and soldiers in Iraq. We have a vested interest in making that country and its new government work. So in the eyes of the terrorists if they can make us look bad in Iraq, we will look bad to the world...and they get a stronger foothold.. In the eyes of the US as long as bombs are not going off over here, as long as people are not dying on US soil...our 'war' is succeeding, it is a magicians game, look at the hand that is moving, not the one over here.

Political posturing, control, and peoples lives....it makes our republic go round.

Jack Halyard · 08-22-2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin

Google Mark Twain's War prayer and you will see even more of how a liberal thinks!

Mark Twain was labelled as unpatriotic for his outspoken opposition to American intervention in the Phillipines which, of course, was a direct result of the Spanish-American War. The War Prayer was written c.1905 but was not published until after his death.

There is a certain degree of the same sort of thing happening today towards persons who express their opposition to the situation in Iraq (and I'm not referring to the Dixie Chicks). I'm just talking about the average person.