What is the future of Islam?

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

I would say "any voices", whether from heaven or elsewhere, should be ignored unless one physically sees the speaker. Spiritual interaction is only possible via our spirit; this is then often tranlated by a conditioned fallible mind.

Ah, but could this process of translation not take the form of the aural experience?

I have to admit in my most aware period of life, I found myself experiencing something of this - something towards a voice, not of God, but of an enlightened intercessionary, whose words I would write down.

Of course, I'm rationalist enough to be able to question the objectiveness of the experience - but it was interesting. I do quite have sympathy for the tin hat wearing people, though I should not think aluminium foil would suit myself.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Ah, but could this process of translation not take the form of the aural experience?

I have to admit in my most aware period of life, I found myself experiencing something of this - something towards a voice, not of God, but of an enlightened intercessionary, whose words I would write down.

Of course, I'm rationalist enough to be able to question the objectiveness of the experience - but it was interesting. I do quite have sympathy for the tin hat wearing people, though I should not think aluminium foil would suit myself.

Let those who wish to wear tin hats walk amongst the tin hat wearers; there they will be least obtrusive.

Enlightenment is a state of intellectual or spiritual awareness, the process of this spiritual awareness is translated by the mind. An aural experience is the mind's interpretation of either a spiritual or intellectual interaction with the subconscious which can also be considered the spirit. ANY translation is subject to the mind's conditioning, hence, when the interceder, the mind is enlightened, it tranlates the reception accordingly; if the person believes in a spiritual existence or God the resulting translation is adapted thereto. Buddha considered his enlightenment an intellectual experience.

I also consider myself a rationalist & when I had an enlightenment or spiritual experiences at age 15 I eventually considered it to be a possible dream. The second episode was almost identical but more vivid 45 years later and the third a week after that was even more illuminating. Could these experiences be the mind's creation? Possibly, but I now personally believe the spiritual existence to be a reality.

See http://www.near-death.com/forum/nde/001/14.html

[Vajradhara]

Namaste kkawohl,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by kkawohl

. Buddha considered his enlightenment an intellectual experience.

not to get too far afield here... do you have ANY Sutta or Sutra references to affirm this position? i have, however, quite a few that state, conclusively that intellect is not it....

[Avinash]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Enlightenment is a state of intellectual or spiritual awareness, the process of this spiritual awareness is translated by the mind.
Buddha considered his enlightenment an intellectual experience.

Namaskar,

Enlightenment cannot be called an "experience" nor a "state of intellectual or spiritual awareness" because at the moment of enlightenment, there is nobody left to actually have the experience or awareness. After it has happened however, there are certain after-effects which may be described with the help of the intellect.

But, how is this relevant to the future of Islam?

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by Avinash

Namaskar,

Enlightenment cannot be called an "experience" nor a "state of intellectual or spiritual awareness" because at the moment of enlightenment, there is nobody left to actually have the experience or awareness. After it has happened however, there are certain after-effects which may be described with the help of the intellect.

But, how is this relevant to the future of Islam?

Vajradhara & Avinash,

Enlightenment is the translation of the Sanskrit word “bodhi” which literally means “awakening” or “supreme knowledge”. In Buddhism it is achieved by following the “Eight-fold path” and constitutes freedom from all desires. Enlightenment gives the person who achieves it the wisdom of perceiving the ultimate reality, which entails the power and the ability to work to change that reality in certain ways--especially to help people in need. For example, "Amitabha” created the western land--the "Pure Land"-as a heaven for his followers. Enlightenment is often described as "emptiness’ . This is the final step before "nirvana“. Gaining Enlightenment can be likened to breaking through a wall. At first, only a small hole may be created, through which one can briefly see a small part of the other side. Ultimately, the whole wall may be destroyed and all will be visible.

“Enlightenment” was also a European intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries, enlightenment in which ideas concerning God, reason, nature, and man were synthesized into a worldview that gained wide assent and that instigated revolutionary developments in art, philosophy, and politics.

“Now” the English interpretation of enlightenment is considered “the state of intellectual or spiritual awareness, therefrom “my” interpretation is, if Buddha’s enlightenment was not spiritual, his enlightenment was an intellectual awareness, an experience of consciousness.

IMHO, the future of Islam will be governed by an enlightenment of spiritual awareness verified by intellectualism.

Namaste,
Kurt

[I, Brian]

In other words...after the current antogonisms have passed, Islam will liberalise...

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

In other words...after the current antogonisms have passed, Islam will liberalise...

Yes, but sadly, probably not during our lifetime.

[mrgnash]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Greetings mrgnash,

Why not reformation via revealed truth that embraces empirical science? If logic is implemented in religions then we have the beginning of rational spirituality rather than religions that are nourished and sustained by superstitions. Is mankind incapable of accepting these truths?

Namaste,
Kurt

Hello Kurt,

While such a project sounds very nice on paper, what we are really talking about here is a subordination of religion to modern science; a science which is defined and empowered by the a priori exclusion and dismissal of categories which it cannot compass, including the metaphysical/Absoloute. Mankind must simply accept truth, there is no other choice that would not be intellectually dishonest, but to attempt to explain all phenomena by recourse to known empirical facts is to put the cart before the horse i.e to attempt to explain the higher (infinite, Absoloute) in terms of the lower (finite). Such an attempt is doomed to failure, and so the 'answer' has been to simply dismiss metaphysical reality, if not in an outright manner then by epistemological reductionism.

The capitulation of any religion to science for the reasons outlined above, signal its obsolescence and eventual extinction. Things like dogma, mythology and faith which have virtually attained a pejorative connotation in popular usage are in fact the vital and illuminating formal or exoteric dimensions which pave the way, as it were, to the inner mystical dimensions of religion (spirituality); they are neither dispensable nor amenable to rational inquiry (except of course in examining their anthropological and historical content), and therefore cannot be complimented in any meaningful way by an attempt at some sort of scientific exegesis.

I bow to the Divine in you too Kurt, despite the fact that such a notion is highly irrational

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by mrgnash

Hello Kurt,

The capitulation of any religion to science for the reasons outlined above, signal its obsolescence and eventual extinction. Things like dogma, mythology and faith which have virtually attained a pejorative connotation in popular usage are in fact the vital and illuminating formal or exoteric dimensions which pave the way, as it were, to the inner mystical dimensions of religion (spirituality); they are neither dispensable nor amenable to rational inquiry (except of course in examining their anthropological and historical content), and therefore cannot be complimented in any meaningful way by an attempt at some sort of scientific exegesis.

I bow to the Divine in you too Kurt, despite the fact that such a notion is highly irrational

Greetings mrgnash,

Due to time constraints, I will answer later...but please see my postings #111 & #114 at http://www.comparative-religion.com/...2370#post12370

Namaste,
Kurt

[Mason]

I have only began to read this thread, so i don't know where it's going at the moment, but i came across this close to be start and i was wondering if a Muslim could tell me if this is really in the Quran (as i know little about what is written in it, because i have only started reading about Islam two weeks ago). > Quahom1 wrote:

Islam - definition. To submit (not peace). Inference according to the Qu'ran: Submit to our way or die.

Is this true? or was he joking? I can't tell...

[Friend]

Originally Posted by Mason

I have only began to read this thread, so i don't know where it's going at the moment, but i came across this close to be start and i was wondering if a Muslim could tell me if this is really in the Quran (as i know little about what is written in it, because i have only started reading about Islam two weeks ago). > Quahom1 wrote:
Quote:
Islam - definition. To submit (not peace). Inference according to the Qu'ran: Submit to our way or die.
Is this true? or was he joking? I can't tell...

Salaam

Thanks to your question

Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.

Everything and every phenomenon in the world other than man is administered totally by God-made laws, ie. they are obedient to God and submissive to his laws, they are in the State of Islam. Man possesses the qualities of intelligence and choice, thus he is invited to submit to the good will of God and obey His law, ie, become a Muslim.

Submission to the good will of God, together with obedience to His beneficial Law, ie, becoming a Muslim, is the best safeguard for man's peace and harmony.

Islam dates back to the age of Adam and its message has been conveyed to man by God's prophets and messengers, including Abrahim, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.

Islam's message has been restored and enforced in the last stage of the religious evolution by God's last prophet and messenger, Muhammad.

The word Allah in the Arabic language means God, or more accurately, The One and Only Eternal God, Creator of the Universe, Lord of all lords, King of all kings, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful. The word Allah to mean God is also used by Arabic speaking Jews and Christians.

[Mason]

Thanks for the reply Friend, from your post i learnt some things i didn't know. Ty
You answered my question in a way that almost says yes, in a nice way.... Am i right in thinking that or have i misunderstood you? (i wont be scared away from learning more about Islam if yes is the answer) ^_^

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Kurt,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Vajradhara & Avinash,

Enlightenment is the translation of the Sanskrit word “bodhi” which literally means “awakening” or “supreme knowledge”. In Buddhism it is achieved by following the “Eight-fold path” and constitutes freedom from all desires. Enlightenment gives the person who achieves it the wisdom of perceiving the ultimate reality, which entails the power and the ability to work to change that reality in certain ways--especially to help people in need. For example, "Amitabha” created the western land--the "Pure Land"-as a heaven for his followers. Enlightenment is often described as "emptiness’ . This is the final step before "nirvana“. Gaining Enlightenment can be likened to breaking through a wall. At first, only a small hole may be created, through which one can briefly see a small part of the other side. Ultimately, the whole wall may be destroyed and all will be visible.

not knowing your relative level of understanding or practice within the Buddha Dharma, i'm a bit hestitant to say anything in particular.

however... let me say this.. a being does not gain Nirvana or Awakening, to think of it as "gain" or "accomplishment" is to place it outside of ones essential nature, which is a mistaken conception of what is going on.

nevertheless... this has little, if anything, to do with Islam.. thus, i'll shut up

[Friend]

Quote:
Islam - definition. To submit (not peace). Inference according to the Qu'ran: Submit to our way or die.

The answer is No , ( may be I didn't explain the answer well )You will not be a Muslim by force ,
Allah said in the Quraan,which can be translated as :

" Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.[2 :256]

So we don't have a commands from Allah as Muslims to Kill non Muslim , but if anyone attack the Muslims, Allah allowed us to defence ourselves .this is what Islam message told us .

Islam mean. submit to Allah , which means accept everything Allah gave you in your life and put your life in the way of Allah and trust that he will listen to you and help you if you believe that he is the only savior for you .

so if you submit in Islam it must be only for Allah , and we are all slaves of Allah ....and in Islam you must not submit to any of his slaves .

If you doesn't understand my answer please ask me , and you are welcome to ask any questions .

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Friend

so if you submit in Islam it must be only for Allah , and we are all slaves of Allah ....and in Islam you must not submit to any of his slaves .
.

Greetings Friend,

This is very interesting. Forgive my ignorance, but does this mean that Islam abolished human slavery?

peace,
lunamoth