What is the future of Islam?

[Mus Zibii]

Originally Posted by mrgnash

But the number of bona fide saints in all religions has declined in recent times...

Well, it depends on the definition of Saint. The Vatican has been pooping out Saints lately like... a saint pooping machine.

I'm always wary of Saints. Ever since I became a Christopher Hitchens' worshipper. Seems like every venerated character is a fraud. So maybe it's better that Islam bows at the feet of bin-Laden and al-Zarqawi and al-Khawarej. Better to be consistent than a hypocrite and evil.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by mrgnash

Being a traditionalist, I do not see the 'solution' to the problems which beset Islam at present being solved by reforming it 'from below' (i.e introducing 'Western' or 'liberal' ideas and values, or substiting empirical science for revealed truth).

Greetings mrgnash,

Why not reformation via revealed truth that embraces empirical science? If logic is implemented in religions then we have the beginning of rational spirituality rather than religions that are nourished and sustained by superstitions. Is mankind incapable of accepting these truths?

Namaste,
Kurt

[Avinash]

Originally Posted by Kurt Kawohl

Why not reformation via revealed truth that embraces empirical science? If logic is implemented in religions then we have the beginning of rational spirituality rather than religions that are nourished and sustained by superstitions. Is mankind incapable of accepting these truths?

Namaskar,

There is no other way than such a reformation. Religion will be transformed into spiritual science when people finally start to reject dogmas and superstitions. It's already going that way in educated parts of the world. But these things take time since religions are anchored in people's hearts and the process is as painful one.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by Avinash

Namaskar,

There is no other way than such a reformation. Religion will be transformed into spiritual science when people finally start to reject dogmas and superstitions. It's already going that way in educated parts of the world. But these things take time since religions are anchored in people's hearts and the process is as painful one.

I agree that religion will be transformed into spiritual science when people finally start to reject dogmas and superstitions.

There of course are other ways than such a reformation; people can be religiously informed yet remain spiritually ignorant.

Where is it already going that way in educated parts of the world?...Not in the US or UK where Christianity and Islam totally rejects religious rationality. Judaism has made some advances therein but basically also still subscribes to an irrational dominant God.

Religions are anchored in people's minds that need super doses of applicable logic in order to delete its inbred illogical superstitions.

Namaste,
Kurt

[Karehndiujo Mohmid]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

In short, what is the future of Islam?

Islam, in theory, is the culmination of all religious thought.

Hence, it would appear to me that the future of Islam may depend, somewhat, upon the future of its ancestoral religions.

[Pet Zepi]

Originally Posted by Karehndiujo Mohmid

Islam, in theory, is the culmination of all religious thought.

Hence, it would appear to me that the future of Islam may depend, somewhat, upon the future of its ancestoral religions.

Heh. Wanna see a card trick?

[Karehndiujo Mohmid]

Originally Posted by Pet Zepi

Heh. Wanna see a card trick?

Yes, I would like to see that very much.

[Mus Zibii]

Originally Posted by Karehndiujo Mohmid

Yes, I would like to see that very much.

When you do something good, the Jack winks at ya. LOL

Okay, I have no idea what everybody's talking about.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by Karehndiujo Mohmid

Islam, in theory, is the culmination of all religious thought.

Hence, it would appear to me that the future of Islam may depend, somewhat, upon the future of its ancestoral religions.

Islam is not the culmination of religious thought, it is the derivative of Judaism & Christianity.

I agree that the future of Islam may depend somewhat on the future of its ancestoral religions; they should all be brought out of its dark ages & into the 21st century.

[Karehndiujo Mohmid]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Islam is not the culmination of religious thought, it is the derivative of Judaism & Christianity.

I agree that the future of Islam may depend somewhat on the future of its ancestoral religions; they should all be brought out of its dark ages & into the 21st century.

Yes, that is what I said.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Not in the US or UK where Christianity and Islam totally rejects religious rationality. Judaism has made some advances therein but basically also still subscribes to an irrational dominant God.

It's these sort of rampant generalisations that make you seem as bad as the very people you claim to be working against: setting up misconception for misconception.

There is an absolutely massive difference between US and UK Christianity - US Christianity has become aggressive and domineering, whereas here in the UK Christianity is essentially liberal and passive - but you don't seem to understand that there is a world of difference between and Anglican and a Southern Baptist.

As for Islam - alas, I don't live in a majority Moslem area anymore, so I can't ask anyone close by for a response.

But your Judaism comments - how much Jewish thinking have you actually read? It does seem that your main understanding of Judaism comes from a Christian Literalist reading of the King James Version.

Ultimately, your own arguments often seem so generalised, and show so little understanding of what you claim to comment on, that I'm afraid your own arguments come across as dinstinctly irrational.


Oh - and welcome to CR, Karehndiujo Mohmid.

[kkawohl]

On the Judaism site - Questions about Torah and Talmud, I stated,

"One can of course find a million reasons why religious rationality wouldn’t work, but consider this: If religious radicals would eventually (in 100 years?) be considered mentally deficient, would they eventually disappear? I know, the present system has existed for several thousand years & will not change easily, but every new development began with the first step. The best weapon against irrationality is logic. If logic is implemented in religion, eventually the inference of reasoning has to predominate and the illogical will be considered inferior and will ridicule itself out of existence".

[Mus Zibii]

Eh, a lot of holy writ demands that concepts of 'logic' be purged. Maybe that'd be a good thread.

The Abrahamic story of Eden itself implies as much. Don't question God's will or you'll be excommunicated. And Paul said at length, cast away philosophy. As if God would melt away like the wicked witch if someone read a book or something. Sad, and worst of all, unnecessary.

[I, Brian]

The trouble is that logic works in different ways - it is effectively chained to subjective interpretation.

I'm sure that bananabrain here could comment on how there is plenty of Jewish commentary that looks for the deeper logic and rationalism in the Eden account especially - and how this view will almost certainly be at odds from the the logic and rationalism of the literalist Christian perception.

Ultimately, accusing others of being irrational in their beliefs is simply telling them to follow your own system. Whereas there may be interesting ideas inherent within that, unless you are able to understand something of the logic and mindset of the very people you are criticising, then such declarations simply come across as ignorant.

Certainly there are strains in Judaism that are closest to the literalist Christian view - but certainly not all Judaism thinks in this manner. So the generalisation is flawed.

[kkawohl]

My key point, that Brian somehow does not grasp here, is that religious "radicals" are mentally deficient, irrational and illogical.