What is the Christian perspective of Muhammed (pbuh)?

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

...yes, it is true that Muhammed said that Jesus wasnt crucified....but you have to know that Muhammed didnt say it by his own, but through the Quran which is God's revelation.....

Jesus "appearing" to be crucified believed by Muslims is silmilar to the Gnostics beliefs (in new testament apocrypha).

Why does Islam believe that Jesus was not crucified?

Does Islam believe Jesus is the Messiah? If not why do they believe he will return? I remeber speaking to a friend (who is a Muslim) this question sometime ago, but i can't remember what he said...

Originally Posted by dialogue is the best

I can give you some arguments that Jesus didnt die on the cross

Please...If you will. It is much obliged...

[Pico]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

if you are interested, I can give you some arguments that Jesus didnt die on the cross

cordially,
sis, DB

Sure.

[Ahanu]

A minority of Muslims believe that Jesus was crucified on the cross, so His body was put to death, but not the religion/spirit of Christ.

Or, some Muslims say Jesus survived the crucifixion and died soon afterwards.

Some Muslims say Jesus survived the crucifixion and bodily ascended into heaven.

Some Muslims say that it was not even Jesus on the cross, but someone else!

So which group should one believe?

Oh, and depending on your translation of the Quran, the meaning of this event will change. For example, Surah 3:55.

[dailogue is the best]

Hello, everybody,

I told that I will give you some arguments against Jesus's crucification, or in other words Jesus's dying on the cross.

you have to know that the reliable source for that for any Muslim is the Quran( which is, by the way, God's Words, and not Muhammed. Muhammed is just a messanger. If you want to discuss with a Muslim, you have to discuss on this basis): "....but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for a surety they killed him not(4:157)"

Ahmed Deedat, a South African comparative-religion researcher, presnts thirty points extracted from the Christian Scriptures themselves,trying to prove that Jesus's life was not taken on the cross. The title of Deedat's book is "Crucifixion or Crucifiction"

Now, I ll state only four points. Deedat argues that Jesus life wasnt taken on the cross because he was fastened to the cross only three hours, and this time is too short for a crucified man to die in.

another point:" Jews doubted his death: they suspected that he had escaped death on the cross. That he was alive"

another point:Jesus was burried in a very "big roomy chamber: close at hand, and big and airy for willing hands to come to the rescue. Providence was out to keep Jesus alive"

another point: Jesus, after his getting out from the grave,"forbade Mary Magdolene to touch him "Touch me not" for this reason that it would hurt, because he was alive"

another point:"Mary Magdoline was not afraid on recognizing Jesus because she had seen signs of life before(when they were burying him). She was looking for a Jesus who was alive"

These are some of Deedat's arguments. What do you think?

my best wishes,
sis, DB

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Hello, everybody,

I told that I will give you some arguments against Jesus's crucification, or in other words Jesus's dying on the cross.

you have to know that the reliable source for that for any Muslim is the Quran( which is, by the way, God's Words, and not Muhammed. Muhammed is just a messanger. If you want to discuss with a Muslim, you have to discuss on this basis): "....but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for a surety they killed him not(4:157)"

Ahmed Deedat, a South African comparative-religion researcher, presnts thirty points extracted from the Christian Scriptures themselves,trying to prove that Jesus's life was not taken on the cross. The title of Deedat's book is "Crucifixion or Crucifiction"

Now, I ll state only four points. Deedat argues that Jesus life wasnt taken on the cross because he was fastened to the cross only three hours, and this time is too short for a crucified man to die in.

another point:" Jews doubted his death: they suspected that he had escaped death on the cross. That he was alive"

another point:Jesus was burried in a very "big roomy chamber: close at hand, and big and airy for willing hands to come to the rescue. Providence was out to keep Jesus alive"

another point: Jesus, after his getting out from the grave,"forbade Mary Magdolene to touch him "Touch me not" for this reason that it would hurt, because he was alive"

another point:"Mary Magdoline was not afraid on recognizing Jesus because she had seen signs of life before(when they were burying him). She was looking for a Jesus who was alive"

These are some of Deedat's arguments. What do you think?

my best wishes,
sis, DB

Jesus was on the cross for six hours. Prior to that His visage was removed from the scourging He received by the Roman Guards with the Cat 'o Nine tails whip (that means His skin was torn from his muscle to the point that He was not recognizable). He then was forced to carry a 250 lbs beam for several miles as He was continuosly beaten to move faster. In short, Jesus' energy and blood were whipped away from Him. Then He was pierced throu the wrist and ankle bones (where the arteries for the hands and feet lie). The spikes were made of rusty Iron, which introduced Ferrous oxide into Jesus' blood stream (highly toxic in concentrated doses). Compound that with the inability to fully inflate one's diaphrahm to get oxygen to freshen the little bit of blood that is left in the body...I think you'll understand why He died in hours instead of days. As was the custom, the Guards were about to break Jesus' leg bones so that He would die faster, when they discovered He was already dead.

Jews doubted everything. That is an opinion, not a fact.

Roman Guards were posted at the entrance of Jesus' tomb to keep all intruders out, under pain of death. Centurians of the Guard were known to disembowel any soldier that fell asleep on watch, and send the endtrails to the family...They let no one in to the tomb (of earthly nature).

Mary M. was forbidden from touching Jesus because the transfiguration was not yet complete. Jesus being incorruptable, could not have a corrupted human being, taint His transfiguration.

Remember, Jesus took on the sins of man, past, present and future. There was a lot of damage done to Him in the way of taking on man's sin. It was going to take awhile for Him to become pure and perfect in body.

Let's keep on exploring this avenue DB.

v/r

Q

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

As was the custom, the Guards were about to break Jesus' leg bones so that He would die faster, when they discovered He was already dead.

When you're crucified, you hang there and your lungs are stuck in the inhale (or is it exhale?) position. You need to press up on your feet in order to breathe (tearing the flesh till the ankle/leg bones rest on the spike). Breaking the legs makes it so they can't do that and suffocate.

When someone experiences hypovolemic shock (lack of blood in the body)--as Jesus was from the flogging--and dies, a clear fluid forms a membrane around the lungs, and heart. John records Jesus being stabbed with a spear after he died to make sure he was dead and claimed seeing water and blood come out. He had no idea of fluid forming around the heart and lungs, he just recorded what he saw.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Mary M. was forbidden from touching Jesus because the transfiguration was not yet complete. Jesus being incorruptable, could not have a corrupted human being, taint His transfiguration.

I don't understand why then Jesus let Thomas put his hand through the holes in his hands and in his side then o_O

[islamis4u]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Sometimes God doesn't have to say anything. Sometimes human minds are adequate in knowing and understanding the work that he wants them to do, without being told. After Jesus was gone, Paul, Peter, James and John continued his mission using his life and sayings to guide them.

There was no "science" or "magic formula" telling them what to do. They relied on their natural intuition to guide them. Jesus' life and sayings were what gave them direction and purpose. But in the meantime, they needed to tell others what to do with themselves. So the New Testament recorded not just what Jesus said and did, but also what the apostles said and did. We needed two examples on how to live: Jesus himself and the lives of his disciples, apostles and early followers. It is like when you use the hadiths to interpret the Quran.

God had already given all of them inspiration to get started. So here I am not really giving Paul, Peter, James and John all of the credit. God created them, he created their minds and hearts, he sent Jesus to them and who in turn, by what he said and did, gave them the inspiration to do what they did. It was really God who conceived it all and set it all in motion. He didn't need to say and do that much after He had sent Jesus. God put them all up to it.

Paul, Peter, James and John were secondary messengers in this regard. Sure it wasn't God speaking, but God had sent them too, indirectly. God had implicitly sent anyone who built over the foundation that had been laid (Jesus). That means that if I build over the foundation, God has implicitly sent me too.



Hey, islamis4u. I didn't say Jesus was God in my post. Nor did I say anything about worshipping him!!! I just talked about how the life and sayings of Jesus and the apostles were important in Christianity. I don't consider this line of argument important at this stage. Please remind me later if it becomes relevant.

By the way, what's nouzbillah?

Your whole belief depends on this thing that Naouzbillah Jesus(pbuh) is God. If we say it was not their then on which pillar the teachings of Paul, Peter, James and John stand on?

Nouzbillah is said when we say anything unpleasant or unpleasantness happens.

[Ahanu]

DB, you said:

yes, brother, we Muslims believe in all the plots that were made against Jesus, and how he suffered for the sake of God as all prophtes did....yet, we dont believe that he died on the cross....first, because God tells us in the Quran that he didnt.....it is the same God,who sent all prophets, Jesus, tells us that Jesus wasnt crucified and the Jews didnt manage in killing him.

Could we not consider another interpretation of this vague passage?

Surah 4:155-158 (trans. Yusuf Ali)

(They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. . .

Surah 2:154-157 (trans. Yusuf Ali)

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: 'They are dead.' Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not. Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give gladtidings to those who patiently persevere, Who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return":-They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.

In the Koran it is clearly stated that those who believe in Allah will not die. Even if they are killed. Likewise, Jesus was crucified, but it appeared to them (the Jews) that He was slain. So God hardened their hearts in allowing them to think that they succeeded in killing Jesus. DB, do you believe that I am perverting the text of the Koran by interpreting it in this way?

[Dah-veeth]

Originally Posted by wil

If you'll indulge me, consider starting a thread in Islam asking what Muslims feel about the Bahai and their prophet, I'll bet you get similar responses to that question there as you get to this question here.

But if you ask Baha'is how we feel about Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, or Abraham, we'll say, we believe! We love Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, and Abraham!

[Azure24]

Ahanu it is pointless stating here what it says in the Quaran...As it says in the Bible Jesus was crucified.

What I would like to ask you though (and all Muslims reading this) is why was Jesus crucified in the Islam perspective? Because according to Christians he was crucified for claiming he was the Son of God (mostly).

[Dah-veeth]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Ahanu it is pointless stating here what it says in the Quaran...As it says in the Bible Jesus was crucified.

What I would like to ask you though (and all Muslims reading this) is why was Jesus crucified in the Islam perspective? Because according to Christians he was crucified for claiming he was the Son of God (mostly).

I'll give my perspective on the crucifixion in hopes that it will serve as a bridge of understanding between Muslims and Christians... I believe Jesus was crucified but it didn't kill Him... and I need to clarify... I believe the crucifixion killed His body, not His soul.... His soul is eternal, and therefore He was not killed. The real Jesus, His essence, could never, ever be killed, hence where it says in the Qur'an that the Jews didn't kill Him. They killed merely His body, not Him.

[Ahanu]

Ahanu it is pointless stating here what it says in the Quaran...As it says in the Bible Jesus was crucified.

How so?! First I need to know who's interpretation of the Koran is correct. That is why I am asking why DB would think my interpretation is unacceptable, because DB said that God says in the Koran that Jesus did not die on the cross. Like the bible, I believe the Koran is concerned with spiritual matters. That is why I believe the Koran is simply saying that they did not crush the Christ spirit.

Originally Posted by Dah-veeth

They killed merely His body, not Him.

Exactly. They killed Jesus' body but not His spirit. Surah 2:154 reminds me of the story of Elijah and Elisha, so when we apply this verse to verses in Surah 4, we can understand that it may have a different meaning. Read the following verses from the bible:

When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?"
"Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit," Elisha replied.

"You have asked a difficult thing," Elijah said, "yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise not."
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, "My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.
He picked up the cloak that had fallen from Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. Then he took the cloak that had fallen from him and struck the water with it. "Where now is the LORD, the God of Elijah?" he asked. When he struck the water, it divided to the right and to the left, and he crossed over.
The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, "The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha." And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him. "Look," they said, "we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the LORD has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley."
"No," Elisha replied, "do not send them." But they persisted until he was too ashamed to refuse. So he said, "Send them." And they sent fifty men, who searched for three days but did not find him. When they returned to Elisha, who was staying in Jericho, he said to them, "Didn't I tell you not to go?"

For some reason I think of this story when reading Surah 2:154. It just makes sense to me that Muhammad was saying that Christ was crucified, yet Jesus' enemies did not succeed in crushing His spirit. Hey, I could be wrong. I am no expert, but not all Muslims agree that Christ's material body survived the crucifixion.

[BlaznFattyz]

messianic muslims...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

messianic muslims...

DB is faithful in his beliefs, but Ahanu points out a flaw or confilict of interest (within the Qu'ran). Something not for us to embelish on, but rather take note...wouldn't you say?

[Sean H.]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

DB is faithful in his beliefs, but Ahanu points out a flaw or confilict of interest (within the Qu'ran). Something not for us to embelish on, but rather take note...wouldn't you say?

I'm curious. How is it a flaw or conflict to point out that the Qur'an is speaking in spiritual terms rather than literal terms. And that if one interprets the words spiritually rather than literally, there is no conflict in the Bible, rather a more profound spiritual truth.