What is the Biblical basis for Purgatory?

[Bruce Michael]

Hello There,


It is :1 Corinthians 3 verses 11- 15; on the basis of this Augustine argued that purgatory was not improbable, though he was unsure about it.



Since that time, spiritual research has shown the correctness of this doctrine. This after-death state is known by the Sanskrit name kamaloca (kama: desire, loca: location or place).

Dr. Steiner talks about this here and there, particularly in the series about life after death.

"It is the essential part of kamaloca that we should see to what an extent we are still imperfect by reason of our failings in the world, that we should see in detail in what way we have become imperfect. From that issues the decision to reject everything which has made us imperfect. Thus life in kamaloca adds one intention to another, and the conclusion that we make good again everything that we did and thought which lowered us."

There's nothing like a good purge!



-Br.Bruce

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

It is :1 Corinthians 3 verses 11- 15; on the basis of this Augustine argued that purgatory was not improbable, though he was unsure about it.

Since that time, spiritual research has shown the correctness of this doctrine. This after-death state is known by the Sanskrit name kamaloca (kama: desire, loca: location or place).

First of all, the word "purgatory" does not appear in the Bible. Secondly, The New Testament makes the concept of purgatory obsolete.

The Catholic Encyclopedia taught the following on purgatory:
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.


According to Catholic theologians, belief in purgatory has been a historical constant:

For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death, the Church has always taught the doctrine of purgatory.

So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity. ("Aeneid," VI, 735 sq.; Sophocles, "Antigone," 450 sq.).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory

I was raised with the notion that we could - and should - pray to deceased family members who perhaps were in purgatory to make sure they got into heaven. If you take the mission of Jesus Christ as described in New Testament at face value, this really doesn't make much sense.

I'm note sure how purgatory doctrine has survived for 2000+ years. Why? Because the very notion that once can influence G-d's willingness to forgive the sins of the departed in effect diminishes Jesus' sacrifice by suggesting that it was insufficient. At the same time, it reinforces a superstitious notion of humans' ability to affect G-d's love and mercy. Essentially, this amounts to trying to negotiate a deal with G-d and, in principle, is no different from sorcery and animal sacrifices intended to placate evil spirits and/or induce induce spirits to be spiritually disposed toward to the petitioner.

Surprisingly, Catholic theologians won't flinch when they tell you that belief in purgatory has been a historical constant, as though that validates the concept. If historical precedence is proof of validity, then the Church should continue with the blood-letting rites of primitive animistic religions.

[Thomas]

Hi Netti-Netti —

On the question of modern theology, I thought I might throw this in. It's an interesting viewpoint, and although not new, might cause more than a few to reconsider.

In his latest encyclical Spe Salvi Pope Benedict points out the logic that if no man is perfect, then neither (we pray) is any man utterly beyond redemption. Purgatory then is a judgement and a process of refinement, and traditionally fire was seen as the symbol of this process, indeed one might (with reservation) refer to it as a trial by fire — not one of punishment (this would be hell, in which the damned clings with all his being to the impurity) but if refinement.

Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away.

This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation.

His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion.

At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ.

Thomas

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Thomas

In his latest encyclical Spe Salvi Pope Benedict points out the logic that if no man is perfect, then neither (we pray) is any man utterly beyond redemption. Purgatory then is a judgement and a process of refinement, and traditionally fire was seen as the symbol of this process

Hi Thomas,

I'm not sure how to reconcile this to the practice of praying for the dead.

How does one alleviate the dead's need to go through the process? Or maybe the question is: why would anyone undertake such a thing given the need of the individual soul to undergo "refinement" (your term)?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Thomas

In his latest encyclical Spe Salvi Pope Benedict points out the logic that if no man is perfect, then neither (we pray) is any man utterly beyond redemption. Purgatory then is a judgement and a process of refinement, and traditionally fire was seen as the symbol of this process, indeed one might (with reservation) refer to it as a trial by fire — not one of punishment (this would be hell, in which the damned clings with all his being to the impurity) but if refinement.


Thomas

The resurrection of judgment? (John 5)

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

First of all, the word "purgatory" does not appear in the Bible. Secondly, The New Testament makes the concept of purgatory obsolete.

The Catholic Encyclopedia taught the following on purgatory:
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.



According to Catholic theologians, belief in purgatory has been a historical constant:

For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death, the Church has always taught the doctrine of purgatory.

So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity. ("Aeneid," VI, 735 sq.; Sophocles, "Antigone," 450 sq.).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory

I was raised with the notion that we could - and should - pray to deceased family members who perhaps were in purgatory to make sure they got into heaven. If you take the mission of Jesus Christ as described in New Testament at face value, this really doesn't make much sense.

I'm note sure how purgatory doctrine has survived for 2000+ years. Why? Because the very notion that once can influence G-d's willingness to forgive the sins of the departed in effect diminishes Jesus' sacrifice by suggesting that it was insufficient. At the same time, it reinforces a superstitious notion of humans' ability to affect G-d's love and mercy. Essentially, this amounts to trying to negotiate a deal with G-d and, in principle, is no different from sorcery and animal sacrifices intended to placate evil spirits and/or induce induce spirits to be spiritually disposed toward to the petitioner.

Surprisingly, Catholic theologians won't flinch when they tell you that belief in purgatory has been a historical constant, as though that validates the concept. If historical precedence is proof of validity, then the Church should continue with the blood-letting rites of primitive animistic religions.

Neither does the word "baby" ...lol

You'll have to do better than that.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

I'm not sure how to reconcile this to the practice of praying for the dead.

Next paragraph says:
" ... Early Jewish thought includes the idea that one can help the deceased in their intermediate state through prayer (see for example 2 Macc 12:38-45; first century BC). The equivalent practice was readily adopted by Christians and is common to the Eastern and Western Church ... The souls of the departed can, however, receive “solace and refreshment” through the Eucharist, prayer and almsgiving. The belief that love can reach into the afterlife, that reciprocal giving and receiving is possible, in which our affection for one another continues beyond the limits of death—this has been a fundamental conviction of Christianity throughout the ages and it remains a source of comfort today ...

Now a further question arises: if “Purgatory” is simply purification through fire in the encounter with the Lord, Judge and Saviour, how can a third person intervene, even if he or she is particularly close to the other? When we ask such a question, we should recall that no man is an island, entire of itself. Our lives are involved with one another, through innumerable interactions they are linked together. No one lives alone. No one sins alone. No one is saved alone. The lives of others continually spill over into mine: in what I think, say, do and achieve. And conversely, my life spills over into that of others: for better and for worse. So my prayer for another is not something extraneous to that person, something external, not even after death. In the interconnectedness of Being, my gratitude to the other—my prayer for him—can play a small part in his purification. And for that there is no need to convert earthly time into God's time: in the communion of souls simple terrestrial time is superseded. It is never too late to touch the heart of another, nor is it ever in vain. In this way we further clarify an important element of the Christian concept of hope. Our hope is always essentially also hope for others; only thus is it truly hope for me too. As Christians we should never limit ourselves to asking: how can I save myself? We should also ask: what can I do in order that others may be saved and that for them too the star of hope may rise? Then I will have done my utmost for my own personal salvation as well."

Thomas

[Dondi]

By that token, can we pray someone out of hell? Could our love reach there as well?

[Dondi]

Sorry, double post.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Dondi

By that token, can we pray someone out of hell? Could our love reach there as well?

Or maybe you could pay people to pray folks out of hell if you wanted to get it done sooner.

Chris

[Thomas]

Hi Dondi —

Originally Posted by Dondi

By that token, can we pray someone out of hell? Could our love reach there as well?

If someone is in hell it's because they have refused the Gift of Love ... therefore you can pray for them, but if they reject the thing you pray for, then so be it ...

Thomas