what is an avatar?

[Agnideva]

I know of several explanations of avatar (incarnation) myself, but would like to hear others’ perspectives on what is an avatar.

What makes a person an avatar, and what is the relationship between an avatar and God?

Opinions need not be limited to the Hindu tradition.

[Silverbackman]

An avatar in my understanding is a incarnation of God, namley Vishnu as you most likelly know. If we were going to define avatar in a more broader sense it would mean any reincarnation of God. Jesus and Krishna for sure must be avatars of the almighty.

[Quahom1]

An avatar is simply a reflection of self. Not from without, but rather from within. Perhaps a vision of how we see ourselves, or how we would like to see ourselves.

For some, it is a vision of the mixing of "God" and self, in some sort of symbiosis, or the expression of self and our "demons" in struggle.

It is a window or picture for others to view a bit of how we view ourselves.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[Agnideva]

Thanks for the reply Silver. This was also my understanding in the beginning. But clearly there are varying definitions of avatar, as we’ve seen recently. The question then becomes, if God is all-pervasive why would He need to materialize in a human incarnation?

Originally Posted by Silverbackman

An avatar in my understanding is a incarnation of God, namley Vishnu as you most likelly know. If we were going to define avatar in a more broader sense it would mean any reincarnation of God. Jesus and Krishna for sure must be avatars of the almighty.

[Agnideva]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

An avatar is simply a reflection of self. Not from without, but rather from within. Perhaps a vision of how we see ourselves, or how we would like to see ourselves.

For some, it is a vision of the mixing of "God" and self, in some sort of symbiosis, or the expression of self and our "demons" in struggle.

It is a window or picture for others to view a bit of how we view ourselves.

Thanks Quahom. I see your point. So, one vision of avatar is an ideal to live up to.

Could it then be that an avatar is someone who has realized God within himself?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Agnideva

Thanks Quahom. I see your point. So, one vision of avatar is an ideal to live up to.

Could it then be that an avatar is someone who has realized God within himself?

Or perhaps truly seeks to...

v/r

Q

[Silverbackman]

Originally Posted by Agnideva

Thanks for the reply Silver. This was also my understanding in the beginning. But clearly there are varying definitions of avatar, as we’ve seen recently. The question then becomes, if God is all-pervasive why would He need to materialize in a human incarnation?

Why does God need to materialize in a human incarnation? I'm not sure, God works in mysterious ways. Perhaps to set an example, who wants to listen to a giant voice in the sky. Although it would make the people fear more, people will look up to him more like dictator than a loving God. People I think would admire a God-man who helps the people than some giant dictating voice in the sky.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silverbackman

Why does God need to materialize in a human incarnation? I'm not sure, God works in mysterious ways. Perhaps to set an example, who wants to listen to a giant voice in the sky. Although it would make the people fear more, people will look up to him more like dictator than a loving God. People I think would admire a God-man who helps the people than some giant dictating voice in the sky.

People certainly do (work in mysterious ways that is), why not God? No one said anything about a giant voice in the sky. But there is a voice within us that is not us, and we know it. We argue with it, plead with it, ignore it, and ultimately come to terms with it. And it never raises its voice (though we sometimes do). You are correct, when saying we put human incarnation, or perameters around God. But that is us, not the God.

Perhaps God "materializes" in human incarnation (in our minds), because we need a point of reference. I guess we are still pretty simple in thought (but we're working on it...)

v/r

Q

[Agnideva]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Perhaps God "materializes" in human incarnation (in our minds), because we need a point of reference. I guess we are still pretty simple in thought (but we're working on it...)

Interesting point Quahom. This reminds of something I read. In Hare Krishna (ISKCON), they believe that our perception that God has incarnated, lived as a human and died a human death is but a result of God's mirific power. In other words, to see the avatar as a human being is due to the limited nature of our own minds.

A.

[queenofsheba]

This is my theory:

A god is transcendent, so he can't communicate directly with humans. To communicate, he needs to send a messenger to men's world.
This messenger can be immaterial, then it's called an ANGEL.
This messenger can be material, of flesh and blood, then it's called an AVATARA.
Krishna and Rama are avatars of Vishnu.
Jesus and John the Baptist are avatars of YHWH.

[Agnideva]

Thanks for the input QueenofSheba. The angels in my understanding are not God, but messengers who carry on God’s work. In other words, they are lesser beings.

Do you see the avatars also as lesser beings, who come from God, rather than literal descents of God Himself?

Originally Posted by queenofsheba

This is my theory:
A god is transcendent, so he can't communicate directly with humans. To communicate, he needs to send a messenger to men's world.
This messenger can be immaterial, then it's called an ANGEL.
This messenger can be material, of flesh and blood, then it's called an AVATARA.
Krishna and Rama are avatars of Vishnu.
Jesus and John the Baptist are avatars of YHWH.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

An avatar is simply a reflection of self. Not from without, but rather from within. Perhaps a vision of how we see ourselves, or how we would like to see ourselves.

For some, it is a vision of the mixing of "God" and self, in some sort of symbiosis, or the expression of self and our "demons" in struggle.

It is a window or picture for others to view a bit of how we view ourselves.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

Your thoughts? They were good thoughts... That is a good definition of an Avatar.

[taijasi]

The following is a link to an explanation of the idea of Avatars, from the book Externalization of the Hierarchy, by Alice Bailey. Here is an excerpt, which defines avatar according to the author:

An Avatar is a Being Who - having first developed His Own nature, human and divine, and then transcended it - is capable of reflecting some cosmic Principle or divine quality and energy which will produce the desired effect upon humanity, evoking a reaction, producing a needed stimulation and, as it is esoterically called, 'leading to the rending of a veil and the permeation of light.' This energy may be generated within the human family and focused in a responsive Messenger; it may be generated within the planet itself and produce a planetary Avatar; it may be the expression of the life impulse and energy of the solar system, or of sources outside the solar system and therefore cosmic. But always it is focused through a manifesting Entity, is called forth by a demand or massed appeal, and evokes response and consequent changes in the life activity, the culture and the civilization of mankind.

This definition is broad enough to account for the fact, as explained on the next page (for anyone who reads the article), that avatars can embody evil as well as good - speaking from the Human perspective. I think it's far better to focus on avatars that embody Divine Good, since these more directly assist us with our journey toward Liberation/Salvation.

Examples given include Luther, Columbus, Shakespeare, Leonardo da Vinci, and Abraham Lincoln. Teaching avatars include Plato, Patanjali, and Shankaracharya. Ray Avatars are greater still, but Christ and Buddha belong to a group called Transmitting Avatars - coming for Humanity as a whole, and transmitting Cosmic Principles (such as Love, and Wisdom, respectively).

Divine embodiments are the greatest of all, and do not descend below the mental plane, or world of ideas (vide Plato's `World of Forms/Ideals'). Such appearances are exceedingly rare, according to Alice Bailey, but one is present in our world today. To relate this being to another thread - on evolution/creation - consider another quote from Alice Bailey's writings:

Thousands of those great cycles which we call "a hundred years of Brahma" have passed since They [Cosmic Avatars] approximated the human stage ...

The cycle mentioned is a Solar System, viewed by esotericists as the literal incarnation of the very great Being we call God (also called The Logos). And once upon a time, said Avatars walked the earth (their `earth'), as Humans. Their evolutionary stature, then, is far beyond our ability even to begin to appreciate. But this additional statement is food for thought:

They have achieved all that man can conceive of as the transcendence of will, of love and of intelligence [the Trinity], and in the synthesis of those three have added qualities and vibrations for which we have no terms, and which cannot be visioned by even our highest adepts. ... Only once has such a Being visited our system [at its inception]. The effect of such a visit as that of the Avatar from Sirius is seen as the sumtotal of civilization and culture, viewing these from the standpoint of the entire system and in one flash of time. [emphasis added]

Ummm, wow.

protokletos

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

protokletos

We know you...

v/r

Q

[pohaikawahine]

They have achieved all that man can conceive of as the transcendence of will, of love and of intelligence [the Trinity], and in the synthesis of those three have added qualities and vibrations for which we have no terms, and which cannot be visioned by even our highest adepts. ... Only once has such a Being visited our system [at its inception]. The effect of such a visit as that of the Avatar from Sirius is seen as the sumtotal of civilization and culture, viewing these from the standpoint of the entire system and in one flash of time.

when we return to the inner path of spirit and knowledge, we are all avatars .... we can be the incarnation of all that is good ....
we are all the 'chosen ones' .... in hawaii-nei (the old days) we would say 'we are all the mo'o (dragons)' meaning that we all possess the spiralling energy within which is symbolized in the dragon ...we are all pure energy ..... he mo'owahine au, pohaikawahine