What good is the doctrine of Predestination?

[flowperson]

Both are aimed at conjuring up predictable outcomes, thus providing comfort and security for the believers.

flow....

[Tariki]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Does anyone think that Predestination and Determinism have the same root?

They would seem to have, yet the actual Christian doctrine of predestination - at least as explained by Silas* - does not seem, paradoxically, to exclude the concept of "free-will"................which I believe would be excluded by a strict determinism.

i.e. see the post by Silas - (which I trust he does not mind me repeating).....

God's election is based on His foreseen knowledge that sinners choose sin over Him. "No one seeks God" (Romans 3:11). God in His mercy choose to save some to display His mercy and left the others to their free will choice.

The actual idea - and possibility - of a God, however omnipotent, being able to "foresee" the choice of a totally free being prior to their creation is discussed by the Christian theologian John Hick somewhere (I believe in his book "God and the Universe of Faiths.") To be honest, such arguments turn my head to jelly and leave me floundering, much like a lot of the Mahayana texts of the Buddhist Faith.

I just like to say the nembutsu and keep my head down.............

[Tariki]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Both are aimed at conjuring up predictable outcomes, thus providing comfort and security for the believers.

flow....

flow,

Under the "double destiny" idea associated with the doctrine of predestination of the Christian Faith, I would say that would not be the case. One would only remain in "comfort and security" so long as one did not "back-slide" - or whatever - at which point surely you would begin to suspect - and fear - that one was indeed not predestined for salvation, but for damnation? Seen in this light, one would constantly strive to do the "good" as a means of convincing oneself that one was in fact of the "elect"? (However much one sought to do the good from "gratitude")

However..........given a "universalist" edge, oh yes! Comfort and security indeed! And supreme gratitude that such is Reality!

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Tariki

They would seem to have, yet the actual Christian doctrine of predestination - at least as explained by Silas* - does not seem, paradoxically, to exclude the concept of "free-will"................which I believe would be excluded by a strict determinism.

i.e. see the post by Silas - (which I trust he does not mind me repeating).....

God's election is based on His foreseen knowledge that sinners choose sin over Him. "No one seeks God" (Romans 3:11). God in His mercy choose to save some to display His mercy and left the others to their free will choice.

The actual idea - and possibility - of a God, however omnipotent, being able to "foresee" the choice of a totally free being prior to their creation is discussed by the Christian theologian John Hick somewhere (I believe in his book "God and the Universe of Faiths.") To be honest, such arguments turn my head to jelly and leave me floundering, much like a lot of the Mahayana texts of the Buddhist Faith.

I just like to say the nembutsu and keep my head down.............

Good observation. It does seem to be a pradox to both affairm God's sovereignty in salvation and man's responsibility in coming to Christ, but it is nontheless there in the bible, so I affirm both. So you arent a Christian. How come? What keeps you back from falling at the feet of Jesus and asking for forgivness of sins?

[mee]

Predestination is an unscriptural teaching that slanders God.
false teachings, including predestination, do not glorify God. so it is no good at all.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by mee

Predestination is an unscriptural teaching that slanders God.
false teachings, including predestination, do not glorify God. so it is no good at all.

Predestination is a God-centered and Christ exsulting teaching that gives God all the glory. It puts God where He is (as Sovereign) and man where he should be - low in humility where he can do nothing but trust in Jesus to be the propetiation of his sins. If any man come to me, Jesus said, I will in no way cast out. All that said, this could only be "nice talk" from a Calvinist.

Why do you feel it slanders God?

[mee]

Originally Posted by Silas

l

Why do you feel it slanders God?

the Bible’s invitation, "Let anyone that wishes take life’s water free."—Revelation 22:17.
the Bible says that Jehovah is a God "abundant in loving-kindness and truth." (Exodus 34:6) He would never offer something he knew that it was impossible for one to obtain

[Tariki]

Originally Posted by Silas

Good observation. It does seem to be a pradox to both affairm God's sovereignty in salvation and man's responsibility in coming to Christ, but it is nontheless there in the bible, so I affirm both. So you arent a Christian. How come? What keeps you back from falling at the feet of Jesus and asking for forgivness of sins?

Silas,

I did "fall at the feet of Jesus" and , as far as I know, "received forgivness" many moons ago. To be honest I admire what I perceive as your own commitment and contrast this with what can often seem "lukewarm" in both myself and others. I read your posts with interest and often think of my old fundamentalist friends who I remember with affection. However, I no longer share your own premise of Biblical inerrancy, nor the theology - and understanding of God - you speak of that is built upon it. And, again to be honest, I have found from other Forums that there is really no point in arguing concerning this. "Forgiveness" for me comes in many shapes and forms, and I see the witness to this in the lives of others of many faiths and doctrines.....and sometimes of none. "By their fruits shall ye know them"!!

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Tariki

Silas,

I did "fall at the feet of Jesus" and , as far as I know, "received forgivness" many moons ago. To be honest I admire what I perceive as your own commitment and contrast this with what can often seem "lukewarm" in both myself and others. I read your posts with interest and often think of my old fundamentalist friends who I remember with affection. However, I no longer share your own premise of Biblical inerrancy, nor the theology - and understanding of God - you speak of that is built upon it. And, again to be honest, I have found from other Forums that there is really no point in arguing concerning this. "Forgiveness" for me comes in many shapes and forms, and I see the witness to this in the lives of others of many faiths and doctrines.....and sometimes of none. "By their fruits shall ye know them"!!

Thanks for your kind words! But, if you dont mind me asking, what made you come to Christ in the first place?

[Tariki]

Originally Posted by Silas

Thanks for your kind words! But, if you dont mind me asking, what made you come to Christ in the first place?

Silas,

Like many, at the time I felt "convicted by sin" and "under judgement". I asked Christ to enter my heart, seeking forgiveness. At the time I felt "saved" and witnessed as such. But as I have implied, following this I have moved on towards what I have found, and experience as, a more fulfilling understanding of God (or Reality-as-is). I do not feel in any way that I have "abandoned" Christ, more led by guidance and grace to a deeper realization of His work than I understood it to be while a "fundamentalist". This via the way of the Dharma, specifically the Jodo-shin-shu expresssion of the Pure Land path of Mahayana Buddhism. (My apologies for being technical!)

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Silas

Predestination is a God-centered and Christ exsulting teaching that gives God all the glory. It puts God where He is (as Sovereign) and man where he should be - low in humility where he can do nothing but trust in Jesus to be the propetiation of his sins. If any man come to me, Jesus said, I will in no way cast out. All that said, this could only be "nice talk" from a Calvinist.

Why do you feel it slanders God?

While I would agree that God is capable of being a masterful mathematician and logician, and while I would give God credit for being able to do that stuff, I cannot give God glory for that as a human being.

God being able to calculate future events implies some degree of determinism. Determinism implies that the universe is a big, complex machine that if allowed to run independently and without intervention, will always generate the same result. As human beings, because we are composed of the same matter as the rest of the universe, we must be a part of that big machine. The idea behind predestination is that regardless of what we do, the result will be the same. The course of future events will not change. That's because our choices are a part of that big machine and are generated by that big machine.

This is the gist of predestination. The result is always the same and God knows that final result.

Unfortunately, you can't value human beings by treating them as machines, or a part of a big machine. Human beings want to be valued and appreciated as beings with free will, capable of making their own choices. Human beings that are treated as mere instruments of a bigger machine have no sentimental value. Beings treated like that have no dignity, and a God that doesn't preserve or protect our personal dignity has no honour or glory.

That's why I can't give God glory for being a masterful mathematician or logician. He knows too much. He has absolute control over everything. A God like that doesn't really care about me. He's just out to manipulate and possess people. Predestination depicts God as a Father Time figure, a Master of Time.

There is, however, a more favourable depiction of God -- The Superman Father. This is a God that is capable of being Father Time, but doesn't care about the ultimate Fate of the universe. It's a God who doesn't care about the final result, but one who only cares about what's important -- the relevant result. He's capable of absolute control, but because of the moral issues associated with that level of control, He doesn't try to control everything. He only tries to control what's important.

The Superman Father God has tremendous power, but only uses it to protect those whom He has chosen as His people. He has a right to use that power because He's using it to help those who love Him. He doesn't abuse that power by trying to achieve absolute control of the universe. His actions have sentimental value which is the reason why He's justified in using that power.

It's a relationship. Once again, it's like Superman. His power and ability are not as important as how He uses that power. His power and ability make Him a hero, but what makes Him even more of a hero is His attitude and personality. That is what gives God glory -- not His power, but His attitude. I don't really care if God is omnipotent, omniscient, all-seeing, far-seeing, or whatever. I don't care about His knowledge and foresight. It's His attitude and scruples that matters. But, it does make me a lucky person if a God with His power and foresight were on my side.

We don't want a God that manipulates events. We want a God we can connect with intimately and personally. We want a relationship with God. We want someone we can love and feel. Something fuzzy like a teddy bear. We want an innocent, humble, down-to-earth God, not a know-all control freak God.

It's ok for God to be a Superman Father, but not ok to be Master of Time.

[Faithfulservant]

I believe that predestination only applies to believers.. Its a mystery and theres a reason why its a mystery.. If He wanted us to know He would just tell us..

[Silas]

Originally Posted by mee

the Bible’s invitation, "Let anyone that wishes take life’s water free."—Revelation 22:17.
the Bible says that Jehovah is a God "abundant in loving-kindness and truth." (Exodus 34:6) He would never offer something he knew that it was impossible for one to obtain

God's soveregnity to save whom He wills and man's responsiblity in coming to Christ to be saved, are not at odds in scripture. Therefore, to be biblical you have to affirm both, I feel. There is no contradiction: "whosoever wills, let them come" and if they come Jesus said, "I will in no way cast them out." I think the problem exist with those who do not understand the doctrines of grace. And oh, what a wonderful and amazing doctrine the Christian is missing if they neglect this as "not important." For all my family in Christ here, I would simply ask that you check out (at least to some fair degree) a bit of covernant theology and the doctrines of grace. You can never know the Love that God has for you if you assume such a general love, i.e., that God has the same love for you as he does for the persishing. You must know that the Love He has for you moved Him to suffer an infinte cost. The love for Christ' sheep is not the same love God has for those perishing in hell. For you to adhere to that would be like a husband insisting that he cares for, and lives and dies for, and loves every woman the same as he loves His wife. And therefore, as a result, your Christanity will suffer it. It will be thin and small and fickle, without passion and zeal and a bit of craziness and bravery. That plea to my brothers and sisters aside, I say this to you Mee. For you, Mee, I would beg you to pray to Jesus and confess your sins in Him, while trusting ONLY in HIM and NOT in yourself, lest you trip over your own self-righteoueness and refused the rock that is Christ.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Tariki

Silas,

Like many, at the time I felt "convicted by sin" and "under judgement". I asked Christ to enter my heart, seeking forgiveness. At the time I felt "saved" and witnessed as such. But as I have implied, following this I have moved on towards what I have found, and experience as, a more fulfilling understanding of God (or Reality-as-is). I do not feel in any way that I have "abandoned" Christ, more led by guidance and grace to a deeper realization of His work than I understood it to be while a "fundamentalist". This via the way of the Dharma, specifically the Jodo-shin-shu expresssion of the Pure Land path of Mahayana Buddhism. (My apologies for being technical!)

I thought about PMing you Tarki, but for the sake of others here, I would write it so everyone can see. You mentioned that you were convicted of sin. Did you know that conviction of sin does not make you a Christian? Anyone who pays attention to the testimony of their conscience can be convicted of sin, for it "alerms" every time we break one of God's laws (which are written upon our hearts, incidentally). Also, the Holy Spirit convicts sinners of sin, without them actually being born again. That said, you also mentioned that you "asked Jesus to come into your heart." I must be honest with you, Tarki, that isnt the remedy for salvation. Asking Jesus to come into your heart is not what saves people at all. Rather, what saves us is when we do what God commands - namely, Repent (stop breaking his laws and stop living for ourselves) and Believe in Christ (Trust in Him alone. Trust that His righteousness will save you or else you perish -thats trust).

This alone is the Biblical remedy for salvation. God has given us His laws, not for us to keep them (no has and none can), but for us to see that we arent good and in need of a Savior. He gave us His laws to lead us to Christ where we can find forgivenss through Trusting in Him. If you would just get a glimpse of God's holiness, you will see that your best works or goodness at its zenith, is only filty rags, before a Perfect and thrice Holy God. Look at Christ - His willingness to always do the will of the Father, His goodness and how they were ALWAYS done with pure and perfect motives, the fact the did good to God's glory, rather than his own, etc., and look at yourself, you can see that you fall short. Understanding the gravity of our falling short with a Perfect and Holy God, who hates sin, should cause us to understand, at least to some degree, why we NEED a Savior. If you feel that God is too good to punish sin, Look to the cross. Look at how God slaughtered His sinless Son on behalf of evil people.

Now, if we trust in Christ, our sins can be imputed to His body where He suffered and died to pay the cost, and His perfect righteousness will be imputed or credited to our account whereby we can both be forgiven and good enough to enter God's perfection in Heaven. Without Christ, we are all doomed. This is what you must see if you are to be born again. Until you see this, at least to some degree, you are still dead in sins, and any experience that you had as a Christian, is just that - "an experience" of being a false convert. I have to be honest, you were never saved. You MUST repent and trust in Christ if that is to ever happen. I would ask you in all sincerity to call out to God as if Hell was opening up before you and beg Him to save you. Do that and wait on the Lord. He will save anyone who wants Christ!

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

While I would agree that God is capable of being a masterful mathematician and logician, and while I would give God credit for being able to do that stuff, I cannot give God glory for that as a human being.

God being able to calculate future events implies some degree of determinism. Determinism implies that the universe is a big, complex machine that if allowed to run independently and without intervention, will always generate the same result. As human beings, because we are composed of the same matter as the rest of the universe, we must be a part of that big machine. The idea behind predestination is that regardless of what we do, the result will be the same. The course of future events will not change. That's because our choices are a part of that big machine and are generated by that big machine.

This is the gist of predestination. The result is always the same and God knows that final result.

Unfortunately, you can't value human beings by treating them as machines, or a part of a big machine. Human beings want to be valued and appreciated as beings with free will, capable of making their own choices. Human beings that are treated as mere instruments of a bigger machine have no sentimental value. Beings treated like that have no dignity, and a God that doesn't preserve or protect our personal dignity has no honour or glory.

That's why I can't give God glory for being a masterful mathematician or logician. He knows too much. He has absolute control over everything. A God like that doesn't really care about me. He's just out to manipulate and possess people. Predestination depicts God as a Father Time figure, a Master of Time.

There is, however, a more favourable depiction of God -- The Superman Father. This is a God that is capable of being Father Time, but doesn't care about the ultimate Fate of the universe. It's a God who doesn't care about the final result, but one who only cares about what's important -- the relevant result. He's capable of absolute control, but because of the moral issues associated with that level of control, He doesn't try to control everything. He only tries to control what's important.

The Superman Father God has tremendous power, but only uses it to protect those whom He has chosen as His people. He has a right to use that power because He's using it to help those who love Him. He doesn't abuse that power by trying to achieve absolute control of the universe. His actions have sentimental value which is the reason why He's justified in using that power.

It's a relationship. Once again, it's like Superman. His power and ability are not as important as how He uses that power. His power and ability make Him a hero, but what makes Him even more of a hero is His attitude and personality. That is what gives God glory -- not His power, but His attitude. I don't really care if God is omnipotent, omniscient, all-seeing, far-seeing, or whatever. I don't care about His knowledge and foresight. It's His attitude and scruples that matters. But, it does make me a lucky person if a God with His power and foresight were on my side.

We don't want a God that manipulates events. We want a God we can connect with intimately and personally. We want a relationship with God. We want someone we can love and feel. Something fuzzy like a teddy bear. We want an innocent, humble, down-to-earth God, not a know-all control freak God.

It's ok for God to be a Superman Father, but not ok to be Master of Time.

Whether you know it or not, trust me, you will give God Glory. Either He will recieve glory to the praise of His grace when instead of sending you to hell he saves you, or He will recieve glory when He gives you justice and you go to hell. Either way, God's glory is secure - it will be done. It is what it is. That said, your understanding of biblical predestination is not right.