What do we know about God?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by MagnetMan

God is Love. The most elemental force that can be. There is an irresistable attraction pulling all atoms back to the Source of Being. That force is greater than all the other known forces. All of us have experienced how powerful emotive forces can be. They can overcome reason, and even physical limitations. Millions of people through the Ages have personally experienced the supernatural power of this Divine attraction. Until we factor that charismatic force into the nuclear equation, scientists will flounder in their effort to understand what the missing unification element is. Superficial logic has to be suspended here, and Faith must be the guide.{Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe.} As the outward thrust that was initiated by the Big Bang slows,(God's outward breath) the attractive force of Love will pull the universe back into a singularity again.
Salaam Brother

MagnetMan,

I've read somewhere dealing with quantuum mechanics that there is enormous energy within the "space" of an atom, that is between the nucleus and the electron shell. Would you say that this is the force of God that you are inferring to? Or even the force that binds the nucleus of in a positive charge that should by physics blow apart in repelling forces?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by MagnetMan

God is Love. The most elemental force that can be. There is an irresistable attraction pulling all atoms back to the Source of Being. That force is greater than all the other known forces. All of us have experienced how powerful emotive forces can be. They can overcome reason, and even physical limitations. Millions of people through the Ages have personally experienced the supernatural power of this Divine attraction. Until we factor that charismatic force into the nuclear equation, scientists will flounder in their effort to understand what the missing unification element is. Superficial logic has to be suspended here, and Faith must be the guide.{Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe.} As the outward thrust that was initiated by the Big Bang slows,(God's outward breath) the attractive force of Love will pull the universe back into a singularity again.
Salaam Brother

I agree that God is Love. But He is the epitome of "Agape" not emotive Love, which is as fleeting as the emotions it derives from. Also, Agape which is a logical Love is often used to overide emotions. Hence Agape is a choice, not an emotion. Agape is reason. It is doing what is best for others, often despite our "feelings".

As far a logic being superficial, and requiring suspension, I disagree. Since "faith" is an intuitive and often accurate conclusion that is come to without any apparent set of sequential steps leading to that conclusion. It is not brought on by emotion, but rather by logic that we can not yet explain, or yet provide external evidence, yet it is true.

Emotive behavior often starts wars, logic often ends them.

If we were to depend on the emotive love of God, as opposed to His rational responses to our behavior, we'd have dis-appeared from this planet a long time ago, I should think...

v/r

Q

[didymus]

Dondi, I respect your hesitation to read anything Gonstic. The reason I recommend this book is because Elaine Pagels does a great job of showing the different sects of Christianity in the first and second centuries. It isn't a book advocating or endorsing their beliefs. Alot of contemporary Christians today tend to think that Jesus appeared in Jerusalem performed his work,was crucified and then people worshipped him as God. While many believed he was divine there were just as many if not more who didn't regard him as such. I question whether his own family believed he was God. Some of the first Christians in order to control the people's beliefs and stop the spread of different interpretations attempted to put some rules down so that not just anybody could start up a church and interpret Jesus' words and actions as they liked. The Gnostics were opposed to any type of rules or hierarchy and ran their own churches and interpreted scriptures and oral traditions openly. As this rift grew, the mainstream orthodox christians tightened the screws even more to assure control of this issue. They didn't like the notion of allowing the general man or woman to interpret scripture and beliefs. Eventually there developed a form of christianity that the elite or in crowd believed to be sacred and this was propogated and due to their status were able to sel christianity's fate. The history is told by the victors. If you haven't read anything about the Council of Nicea I highly recomend you look it up. Just let me add, I by no means hold all of the Gnostics interpretations to be true but I find their history and some of their ideas to be fascinating.

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by Dondi

MagnetMan,

I've read somewhere dealing with quantuum mechanics that there is enormous energy within the "space" of an atom, that is between the nucleus and the electron shell. Would you say that this is the force of God that you are inferring to? Or even the force that binds the nucleus of in a positive charge that should by physics blow apart in repelling forces?

You have got me there. MY nuclear phsyics is too rudimentary to answer that with any authority. I know that physicists are up against Dark Energy and Dark Matter at the moment. From what I can gather this invisible presence exerts a force that is seven times more powerful than all the light forces the universe and that it appears to be without mass. If it has no mass, then there can be no gravitational effect, no magnetic force and no weak or strong force. So where does it get its energy and how does it exert it? It is my sense that this might be the force of Love I am refering to. I know that the force of Love exists. I have experienced it on both a natural and super-natural level. At the supernatural level, it is so potent, one wants to just fly out of the body and re-unite with our original source. Physical life is meaningless at that level. It is this super-natural Consciousness that I experienced emminating out of our Star, that has made me (forced is a better word) investigate the metaphsyical potential in atomic behavior for the past thirty years. It has taken me on a haj that goes from animism to zen. So, what do I know about God? I think He is manifest in every atom in the Cosmos and every atom yearns to be re-united one day. This is, I beleve, the unfying force that particle phsycists are searching for and will never find analytically - they have to develope their intuitive faculties in order to find it.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by didymus

Dondi, I respect your hesitation to read anything Gonstic. The reason I recommend this book is because Elaine Pagels does a great job of showing the different sects of Christianity in the first and second centuries. It isn't a book advocating or endorsing their beliefs. Alot of contemporary Christians today tend to think that Jesus appeared in Jerusalem performed his work,was crucified and then people worshipped him as God. While many believed he was divine there were just as many if not more who didn't regard him as such. I question whether his own family believed he was God. Some of the first Christians in order to control the people's beliefs and stop the spread of different interpretations attempted to put some rules down so that not just anybody could start up a church and interpret Jesus' words and actions as they liked. The Gnostics were opposed to any type of rules or hierarchy and ran their own churches and interpreted scriptures and oral traditions openly. As this rift grew, the mainstream orthodox christians tightened the screws even more to assure control of this issue. They didn't like the notion of allowing the general man or woman to interpret scripture and beliefs. Eventually there developed a form of christianity that the elite or in crowd believed to be sacred and this was propogated and due to their status were able to sel christianity's fate. The history is told by the victors. If you haven't read anything about the Council of Nicea I highly recomend you look it up. Just let me add, I by no means hold all of the Gnostics interpretations to be true but I find their history and some of their ideas to be fascinating.

Ah, very well then. I'm primarily wary of the gnostic teaching that matter is evil and the spiritual is good. I figure that all things are good, but can be used in an evil manner.

I'll be reading up on this material. Thanks didymus.

[taijasi]

Dondi, Didymus, MagnetMan, Quahom, et al,

To cross, or reply to, two threads of conversations at once, on this thread ... here's a couple of things about matter, astronomy, love and God.

I have an interest in Gnostic writings, and in much that has been said on the Gnostics during the first few centuries of the Christian Era. Yes, I realize that the Manichean/Mithraist duality (Spirit = good, matter = evil) is usually associated with Gnosticism ... but I certainly do not believe that "matter is evil." Not all Gnostics maintain this view, especially those with a more generalized belief that we can Know, which is what Gnosis is all about.

I agree with MagnetMan that God is manifest in every atom of Cosmos (see below). The scale, however, is such that the degree of Divine Presence, imo, within an atom is not the same as the Presence found within a plant, or animal ... and within a Human, this Presence is ever greater. But even within Humanity, the Divine Presence is yet far, far less manifest than within God, per se. And so I'm a Spiritual Evolutionist. I think that Spirit (the Presence of the Divine) grows by degrees, beginning its journey in the physical world ... within a single atom, yet evolving through all Kingdoms, and eventually finding its way back to its Source. The Prodigal, returns.

It is my opinion that even as early as 1878, there was a much more accurate illustration available for what an "ultimate physical atom" looks like. The author, Edwin Babbitt, provided this drawing in his book, Principles of Light and Color, published that year. However, he was presenting a detailed description of an atom in the true, Greek meaning of that word, which is a-tomos, or in-divisible. Therefore, it is not the atom of science, but rather, an electron, to the best of my ability to guess, for this is the smallest unit of physical matter which science can observe. We now know that even electrons can be further sub-divided, but that brings us literally into another world, or realm of existence (the astral), wherein quarks & sub-quarks comprise the "densest" or slowest-moving particles. In time, we shall further divide and sub-divide even these, non-rudimentary particles.



At any rate, here is an upload of Babbitt's atom, and if one carefully studies it, one will see several things. First of all, it is almost exactly like the atom observed clairvoyantly by other authors, independently, in the early 19th century. Those authors found that Anu (meaning First, which they named this atom (electron), since it was the First, or ultimate unit of physical matter) ... comes in two "flavors." Male anu, can be observed as bringing in energy from the subtler (4th-dimension, emotional) world, and Babbitt's atom shows this in detail (note negative vs. positive end - or charge - of the torrent of force-energy). Female anu, is essentially a miniature black hole, since it removes energy or force ... and draws it out of the physical world. Also, note that there are three major spirals, or whorls of energy/force, in the atom. These appear as structures, as does the atom itself, but what is also emphasized is that the entire structure is actually but of the nature of concretized force, or energy. And science confirms this, matter & energy are interchangeable.

So it would be a mistake to think of the atom, or its combinations, as permanent, for we know that they can be re-converted into energy, and that this happens all the time. Still, the three primary whorls, or spirals, exist, and then there are seven subsidiary spirals. Three, and then seven, which is very telling. If you study this long enough, and notice how the whorls flow around to form a heart-shaped structure (hmmmm) ... you will notice that the whorls, are actually just rings, or circles, that are woven into this shape. Ten of them. Strings, indeed. Also, each string, or spiral, has sub-whorls, or spirillae, which are woven, or spiralled, around the original whorls. And then, sub-sub-spirillae, as far down as 6 sub-spirals, for a total of - again, Seven, though it is too difficult to depict all seven of these. Another upload, whose souce I have long since forgot, depicts this basic structure in greater detail, although I think it is technically inaccurate, since it doesn't show spirals, but rather, simple rings. Still, it is quite helpful, showing five levels of detail, or the main spirals plus four spirillae.

The other point I wanted to make, take us to the other end of the scale. Astronmers have now all but confirmed - as it is pretty much now just generally accepted - that all major galaxies, including ours, have a black hole at the center. Actually, it's a supermassive black hole, which is the big brother of the much smaller-scale, ordinary black hole. And this is incredibly fascinating, and now just about the hottest topic in astronomical research. Ours is called Saggitarius A, btw, since that is the Constellation (or direction in the Heavens) in which it is found. But the entire Milky Way Galaxy orbits this black hole, and I have recently read an account of the Hindu cycle of Yugas which correlates to the enormous time period (260 million years, I think) that it takes for one orbit of Saggitarius A. These cycles, called respectively the Golden, Silver, Bronze and Iron Ages (Satya, Treta, Dvapara, Kali Yuga), correspond to how much spiritual energy, or Divine Light is reaching our tiny Solar System and planet during each part of the cycle. And this has a direct correlation to what scientists are finding, since the higher frequencies of energy at the physical level (such as X-ray and Gamma ray), given off by Saggitarius A (or any black hole) is indeed, incredible!

If you think about the way a black hole works, drawing into it everything at the physical level, then we could think of it as very much like a gigantic magnet. And although this serves in a destructive role relative to the physical plane, it is my opinion that what we're seeing is the operation (or outward manifestation) of a Being (yes, a living, Loving, Super-Intelligent, and Tremendously Powerful, Spiritual Being). I believe the same thing about a Star, and its associated Planetary Systems, which have their mirror in the Human individual (the Sun as the outward Heart, the seat of the Soul, and the Seven Sacred Planets corresponding to the 7 chakras, with a few lesser planets, like ours, as some of the other signficant energy center/chakras). I'm not sure if you've considered this, MagnetMan, but it's essentially a Hylozoism, and fits the Hermetic Axiom, As above, so below.

In terms of the Galaxy, there again, we see a Cosmic Entity, imho, on so vast a scale that even the sum-total of astronomical knowledge currently available, reveals as yet, nothing ... relatively speaking, about the ultimate nature of such a being. Even when adding all the wealth of Wisdom contributed from ancient Wisdom Traditions, such as the knowledge and observations provided from Mayan, Egyptian, African (esp. Dogon), and other Native cultures, including the architectural alignments of their Temples and Observatories (often one & the same, and often as pyramids), we have but a glimpse of what such a Being might be like. One thing, however, I do venture to posit (in concurrence with ideas now being explored by wise thinkers) ... and that is, that the outward activity(ies) of such structures as - a black hole & its galaxy, a star & its solar system, a human & its physical body, and science's atom plus Babbitt's atom/electron ... in each case, I think we're looking at the relationship of the Heart of an Entity, relative to its outward vehicle of manifestation. And if I may be so bold, this does tell us something about God ... and about ourselves. It may not be considered, as yet, certain knowledge, since it requires that insight be gained through relationships, and parallels. But I believe it does show, at least, that always there is a vast, complex entity, or organism, consisting of a heart/centre and an orbiting, subsidiary physical expression. This would indeed suggest, that Humanity, and everything, is created ... in the image of the (Ultimate) Divine.

The following quotes are from a wise sage, who writes here both as poet, and as scientist, regarding the relationship between God, and us:

"The Cosmic Magnet can be seen as the power drawing humanity, indeed, all Primary Matter along the path of spiritual evolution.

The Cosmic Magnet is the Cosmic Heart, or the Consciousness of the Crown of the Cosmic Intelligence—the Hierarchy of Light. Precisely, the Cosmic Magnet is the bond with the higher worlds in the order of Be-ness. The bond of our heart with the Heart of Consciousness of the Highest Hierarch of our planet leads us into the majestic current of the Cosmic Magnet.

The circle drawn by the Cosmic Magnet establishes life upon the principle of General Good.

Only the realization of the Cosmic Magnet will reveal the path to Infinity.

The orbit of the Cosmic Magnet comprises the entire Cosmic evolution."

These writings are from 75 years ago, long before anything was known by science about Saggitarius A, or really black holes in general. Astronomy in the West was as yet, still just learning the basics. I think the ancient cultures, however, had already forgotten things ... that we have yet to discover!

peace,

andrew

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Dondi, Didymus, MagnetMan, Quahom, et al,

[the entire Milky Way Galaxy orbits this black hole, and I have recently read an account of the Hindu cycle of Yugas which correlates to the enormous time period (260 million years, I think) that it takes for one orbit of Saggitarius A. These cycles, called respectively the Golden, Silver, Bronze and Iron Ages (Satya, Treta, Dvapara, Kali Yuga), correspond to how much spiritual energy, or Divine Light is reaching our tiny Solar System and planet during each part of the cycle. And this has a direct correlation to what scientists are finding, since the higher frequencies of energy at the physical level (such as X-ray and Gamma ray), given off by Saggitarius A (or any black hole) is indeed, incredible!

I think we're looking at the relationship of the Heart of an Entity, relative to its outward vehicle of manifestation. And if I may be so bold, this does tell us something about God ... and about ourselves. It may not be considered, as yet, certain knowledge, since it requires that insight be gained through relationships, and parallels. But I believe it does show, at least, that always there is a vast, complex entity, or organism, consisting of a heart/centre and an orbiting, subsidiary physical expression. This would indeed suggest, that Humanity, and everything, is created ... in the image of the (Ultimate) Divine.

The information on Babbit's electron very fascinating. Am impressed at how detail orientated you and he are. I am more enclined to generalization, and via that can appreciate to some extent the importance of detail in the larger picture. I have some detail to share regarding the cosmic cyle of the yugas. An Indian sage called Sri Yukteswar wrote a short book on Holy Science. According to his calculations we have just past the aphelion of the great cycle and have moved out of the Kali Yuga - the dark or ignorant Age into the Dwapara yuga, or golden Age of increasing enlightement. I see this happening on our planet as more people turn away from war, pseudo-intellectual argument and teen idolization, and tune into a more mature Nuclear Age of environmental responsibilities and growing concern for struggling nations.

As regards the second quote. I see all of phsyical manifestation and the infinite flavors that have evolved since the Big Bang, as the sensual form of The Creator, and the high elevation of human consciousness on this planet as the vehicle through which all the flavors and emotions that we go through, during each stage of our evolution, both positive and negative, can be enjoyed and evaluated. In a future Age, as we approach the end of our evolutionary cycle and reach the collective equivalent of our sagehood, I see us transcending the mindane and being drawn unto a re-union with our Original Self.

[taijasi]

MagnetMan,

I agree on both counts. Not meaning to quibble, but just wanted to say that the Golden Age is the Satya Yuga, or age of Truth, Goodness & Virtue. I have seen it referred to elsewhere as the krita yuga, or "well-done" age.

And I have seen writings that say the same thing ... that we are already in it! This is a deviation from the belief of many Hindus, but the author I'm thinking of was himself a Hindu Saint, and the recognized reincarnation of a much earlier Hindu Saint! He gave the example of Thomas Edison's lightbulb (1879) as the dawn of Satya Yuga, referring to a holy scripture which indicates that Satya Yuga will start .... "when the inhabitants of Earth are able to light the night with their own devices." This date is within 4 years of another critical spiritual development, which in my understanding, helped propel us more swiftly toward the Aquarian Age (which is an astronomical reality, in terms of our passage through the heavens, and not simply some kind of astrological mumbo-jumbo, or vague new age belief).

Thus, although I maintain that Aquarius technically began in June of 1944, some several years before the major hit single from the Fifth Dimension ... we're dealing with a ~25000-year astronomical cycle that dovetails almost precisely with the start of a new Sat Yuga of 1,728,000 years. Imminent, also, in my belief, is the outward Reappearance of the Bodhisattva (Imam Mahdi, Messiah, Saoshyant, Christ, Kalki Avatara), within 20 years - while some would even maintain that this has recently occurred. Put all three of these events together ... and anyone who still thinks that we're just whistlin' Dixie ... might better wake up!

peace,

andrew

[MagnetMan]

Farout man!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by MagnetMan

Farout man!

"When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
The age of Aquarius..."

1967 The Fifth Dimension, Hair the Musical

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Dondi, Didymus, MagnetMan, Quahom, et al,

To cross, or reply to, two threads of conversations at once, on this thread ... here's a couple of things about matter, astronomy, love and God.

I have an interest in Gnostic writings, and in much that has been said on the Gnostics during the first few centuries of the Christian Era. Yes, I realize that the Manichean/Mithraist duality (Spirit = good, matter = evil) is usually associated with Gnosticism ... but I certainly do not believe that "matter is evil." Not all Gnostics maintain this view, especially those with a more generalized belief that we can Know, which is what Gnosis is all about. andrew

It is an interesting rendition of the "human heart"...

v/r

Q

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Dondi, Didymus, MagnetMan, Quahom, et al,

I have an interest in Gnostic writings, and in much that has been said on the Gnostics during the first few centuries of the Christian Era. Yes, I realize that the Manichean/Mithraist duality (Spirit = good, matter = evil) is usually associated with Gnosticism ... but I certainly do not believe that "matter is evil." Not all Gnostics maintain this view, especially those with a more generalized belief that we can Know, which is what Gnosis is all about. andrew

Agreed. One wonders why there ever was any question. Matter is after all the manifest body of God.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by MagnetMan

Agreed. One wonders why there ever was any question. Matter is after all the manifest body of God.

I have an astounding thought. I was thinking of the point about how in the spaces inbetween the nucleus and electron shell of an atom has no mass, but enormous energy potential. What if this is where the spirit lies, or more specifically where God's Spirit lies. Maybe the reason we can see God is because He is here all along, in the zillions of atoms in the universe. Just a crazy thought that I am developing. Your thoughts?

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I have an astounding thought. I was thinking of the point about how in the spaces inbetween the nucleus and electron shell of an atom has no mass, but enormous energy potential. What if this is where the spirit lies, or more specifically where God's Spirit lies. Maybe the reason we can see God is because He is here all along, in the zillions of atoms in the universe. Just a crazy thought that I am developing. Your thoughts?

Hallelujah!!! The man has seen the light!! Welcome home my Brother!!

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by MagnetMan

Hallelujah!!! The man has seen the light!! Welcome home my Brother!!

Well, my view of God has always been that He as both transcedent and immanent. I'm not necessary promoting pantheism, rather panentheism. I'm just trying to figure out how. If what I said is true, that He is present in the power of atoms, what does that mean for us?