What do we know about God?

[taijasi]

Quahom,

... nuff said. If your spouse is Wiccan, and you're okay with the idea that God judges her differently, then I have to wonder how that sits with her. Still, that's between the two of you!

I did not mean to imply that you hold up the work of the Aquarian Christ ... just that anyone does so who fosters separativeness or elitism. Have I presented a stumbling block? If so, pray tell me how (or see below).

Telling it like it is - is impossible. Our very best approximation, will nevertheless shatter the Dharma before we've even opened our mouth, or moved a hand. Even the Buddha, or the Christ, knew that ... and as Lao Tse put it, "The Tao that can be named, is not the Eternal Tao."

Yet consider this, the words of one who does not himself embody the Truth he preaches, however truthful, are empty of any real meaning. And thus, while I consider your statements about being "one level up" as a Christian as the height of ludicrousness, and completely in error, they may nonetheless "ring true" (esoterically) far more so than my own. Sad, imo, yet - true.

Fortunately, those who know better, already understand this ... and they also know that God reads the intention(s), and the effort(s), written within the heart ... not simply what rises to the surface, important as that may also be. This is how I know that what I say is true, even if not lent the fullness of the Wisdom it echoes (since I do not embody this Wisdom, at present). And it is how I know you well enough, even as some of the things you say do surprise me! Intruigued, might be a better word. Anyway, all this is way off topic ...

cheers,

andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Quahom,

... nuff said. If your spouse is Wiccan, and you're okay with the idea that God judges her differently, then I have to wonder how that sits with her. Still, that's between the two of you!

I did not mean to imply that you hold up the work of the Aquarian Christ ... just that anyone does so who fosters separativeness or elitism. Have I presented a stumbling block? If so, pray tell me how (or see below).

Telling it like it is - is impossible. Our very best approximation, will nevertheless shatter the Dharma before we've even opened our mouth, or moved a hand. Even the Buddha, or the Christ, knew that ... and as Lao Tse put it, "The Tao that can be named, is not the Eternal Tao."

Yet consider this, the words of one who does not himself embody the Truth he preaches, however truthful, are empty of any real meaning. And thus, while I consider your statements about being "one level up" as a Christian as the height of ludicrousness, and completely in error, they may nonetheless "ring true" (esoterically) far more so than my own. Sad, imo, yet - true.

Fortunately, those who know better, already understand this ... and they also know that God reads the intention(s), and the effort(s), written within the heart ... not simply what rises to the surface, important as that may also be. This is how I know that what I say is true, even if not lent the fullness of the Wisdom it echoes (since I do not embody this Wisdom, at present). And it is how I know you well enough, even as some of the things you say do surprise me! Intruigued, might be a better word. Anyway, all this is way off topic ...

cheers,

andrew

You know nothing about me. And you are a very rude individual. I do understand arrogance, and you take the cake sir/ma'am.

In my opinion you are short sighted about what you think you know (that and a buck fifty will get me a cup of coffee).

Nice going.

[taijasi]

Quahom,

Recommendation: Next time, try posting while sober. You'll come across friendlier, and it will make more sense.

Arrogant? Well now, ain't that the POT callin' the kettle black.

Short-sighted? Hmmmm. You're the one worshipping in front of the tree upon which you've carved, "I'm right, you're wrong." A thousand trees in this beautiful forest, and yours ain't no different than anyone else's. Get over it.

-A

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Yet consider this, the words of one who does not himself embody the Truth he preaches, however truthful, are empty of any real meaning. And thus, while I consider your statements about being "one level up" as a Christian as the height of ludicrousness, and completely in error, they may nonetheless "ring true" (esoterically) far more so than my own. Sad, imo, yet - true.

By the way, Q, in this first sentence I was referring to myself, and not you ... perhaps, since I didn't make this clear, you thought I was calling you a hypocrite. Just the reverse. But I think in this case, I was sufficiently vague ...

-A

[didymus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hi Didymus,

I truly understand your dilema. The concept of being a basically "good person" struck a nerve with me as well.

Then I dreamed...and I saw everything I'd ever done wrong. Didymus, I was so disgusted with myself, that I would judge me to death.

Half the time we underate ourselves and the other half is spent overrating ourselves. If left to the judicial pillars of man, not a one of us would survive...

We are our own worst judges, and God comes in the nick of time to save us from ourselves.

v/r

Q

Q- I too have judged myself in the past and still do on occasion. I am still working on that. I don't think that this is a dilemma though. I truly feel that I will go to a better place when I die regardless of what I believe. I also feel i'm in a far better place than i was when i was Christian. I proclaimed my belief in Christ years ago. I chose to believe he was God Himself and no mere mortal. Even after this acceptance I still judged myself. There was no inner transformation as a result of this belief. I found my Christian days to be bitter sweet. There was a sense of safety and assurance in believing what the majority believed and at times I was almost comfortable with the notion that I was on the right side and others on the wrong one. Hey, at least I knew where I was going. Right? The world became very black and white to me, us and them. When I viewed humanity and society through this lens, I was better, I was the chosen one. God was blessing me and it wasn't my job to figure out why billions would be relegated to the gates of hell. I was told they had a choice too. They chose to be good people and practice their faith or maybe had no faith but just wanted to be good people. I was told that was not good enough either. Those poor folks were misinformed and could expect the fiery pit also unless they accepted Jesus.Then I managed to transcend this fear and judgement of anything non-christian (God put people in my path). I actually read a book that challenged christianity. My goodness, and I was scared to death to do this.Literally scared to death. I said to myself, if God loves me and my faith is strong I should be able to read this without fear of punishment from my maker. By golly I did it and I actually felt pretty good about it. I read more books and more books and found out that these folks writing were actually good people that believed in God, just not the Christian version of It. I can't make you see what I see but I think I know pretty much where you're at. Maybe I'm wrong though. Do you think your wife will go to hell for being Wiccan? Do you actually believe that an incredible life force, creator of all, including us would hold such a man made thought. This is such a human notion that it is hard not to see it as such when you move away from it. It is fear based not love based. If you do this you'll be rewarded if not, well you go to hell.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by didymus

Q- I too have judged myself in the past and still do on occasion. I am still working on that. I don't think that this is a dilemma though. I truly feel that I will go to a better place when I die regardless of what I believe. I also feel i'm in a far better place than i was when i was Christian. I proclaimed my belief in Christ years ago. I chose to believe he was God Himself and no mere mortal. Even after this acceptance I still judged myself. There was no inner transformation as a result of this belief. I found my Christian days to be bitter sweet. There was a sense of safety and assurance in believing what the majority believed and at times I was almost comfortable with the notion that I was on the right side and others on the wrong one. Hey, at least I knew where I was going. Right? The world became very black and white to me, us and them. When I viewed humanity and society through this lens, I was better, I was the chosen one. God was blessing me and it wasn't my job to figure out why billions would be relegated to the gates of hell. I was told they had a choice too. They chose to be good people and practice their faith or maybe had no faith but just wanted to be good people. I was told that was not good enough either. Those poor folks were misinformed and could expect the fiery pit also unless they accepted Jesus.Then I managed to transcend this fear and judgement of anything non-christian (God put people in my path). I actually read a book that challenged christianity. My goodness, and I was scared to death to do this.Literally scared to death. I said to myself, if God loves me and my faith is strong I should be able to read this without fear of punishment from my maker. By golly I did it and I actually felt pretty good about it. I read more books and more books and found out that these folks writing were actually good people that believed in God, just not the Christian version of It. I can't make you see what I see but I think I know pretty much where you're at. Maybe I'm wrong though. Do you think your wife will go to hell for being Wiccan? Do you actually believe that an incredible life force, creator of all, including us would hold such a man made thought. This is such a human notion that it is hard not to see it as such when you move away from it. It is fear based not love based. If you do this you'll be rewarded if not, well you go to hell.

didymus,

In reading several ofyour posts, I find the you and I are on simular spiritual paths. I, too, have reservations about Christianity being the only path, having been a Christian (still am, just a different sort). What book was it that you read?

Also, what do you consider yourself to be now? Or where is you path leading you?

[didymus]

Originally Posted by Dondi

didymus,

In reading several ofyour posts, I find the you and I are on simular spiritual paths. I, too, have reservations about Christianity being the only path, having been a Christian (still am, just a different sort). What book was it that you read?

Also, what do you consider yourself to be now? Or where is you path leading you?

Hey Dondi, It's hard to say how I consider myself nowadays. I carried with me some aspects of Christianity that fit for me, namely forgiveness. At times when I pray I still ask Jesus for help. I don't know if this is old habit or what but I'm not ahamed of it nor do I question it too much either. I don't believe Jesus is or was God any more than we all are. After all, didn't Jesus say, "these things and more you will do yourself". I don't know where that quote is but its in the Bible somewhere.One of the first books that changed my life was, Sermon on the Mount by Emmit Fox. Another was The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. There are countless others too.I find my path to be leading to the inner voice that I have had since a child. The voice had become so muffled through life that it was just about mute, or maybe my ears needed cleaning. God is taking me on a direct detour to my heart. When quiet enough and attentive there is a tremendous intuition and wisdom that comes from this place. I don't claim that I am my own best teacher nor is my hearing always 100% but it is becoming clearer as I go.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by didymus

Hey Dondi, It's hard to say how I consider myself nowadays. I carried with me some aspects of Christianity that fit for me, namely forgiveness. At times when I pray I still ask Jesus for help. I don't know if this is old habit or what but I'm not ahamed of it nor do I question it too much either. I don't believe Jesus is or was God any more than we all are. After all, didn't Jesus say, "these things and more you will do yourself". I don't know where that quote is but its in the Bible somewhere.One of the first books that changed my life was, Sermon on the Mount by Emmit Fox. Another was The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. There are countless others too.I find my path to be leading to the inner voice that I have had since a child. The voice had become so muffled through life that it was just about mute, or maybe my ears needed cleaning. God is taking me on a direct detour to my heart. When quiet enough and attentive there is a tremendous intuition and wisdom that comes from this place. I don't claim that I am my own best teacher nor is my hearing always 100% but it is becoming clearer as I go.

Thanks for sharing that, didymus. I would like to repond, but I am pressed for time at the moment (I'm having a busy three day Presidents day weekend). I'll get back to you on this manana.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Quahom,

... nuff said. If your spouse is Wiccan, and you're okay with the idea that God judges her differently, then I have to wonder how that sits with her. Still, that's between the two of you!

I did not mean to imply that you hold up the work of the Aquarian Christ ... just that anyone does so who fosters separativeness or elitism. Have I presented a stumbling block? If so, pray tell me how (or see below).

Telling it like it is - is impossible. Our very best approximation, will nevertheless shatter the Dharma before we've even opened our mouth, or moved a hand. Even the Buddha, or the Christ, knew that ... and as Lao Tse put it, "The Tao that can be named, is not the Eternal Tao."

Yet consider this, the words of one who does not himself embody the Truth he preaches, however truthful, are empty of any real meaning. And thus, while I consider your statements about being "one level up" as a Christian as the height of ludicrousness, and completely in error, they may nonetheless "ring true" (esoterically) far more so than my own. Sad, imo, yet - true.

Fortunately, those who know better, already understand this ... and they also know that God reads the intention(s), and the effort(s), written within the heart ... not simply what rises to the surface, important as that may also be. This is how I know that what I say is true, even if not lent the fullness of the Wisdom it echoes (since I do not embody this Wisdom, at present). And it is how I know you well enough, even as some of the things you say do surprise me! Intruigued, might be a better word. Anyway, all this is way off topic ...

cheers,

andrew

I suppose I am the antithisis of the quintecential. I am secure in my own faith to remain rooted, and secure enough to allow my spouse to follow her own path to "enlightenment". In short if I am the tree, she is the wind in my branches, or the bird of wing that nests there. Free to fly as she wishes, but has a stable home to nest in.

So, in short diametrically opposed concepts can co-exist, even in the same house. They can even flourish. Perhaps because they are not so opposed after all...

Perhaps you would do well to read a bit of Orson Scot Card's work (The seventh Son comes to mind...)".

And if you knew your Christianity better, you'd have realized that the wife is sanctified through the believing husband...and wise is the man who does not fettle his wife needlessly.

I'm not Peter the pumpkin eater, and I do not need to keep my spouse in a shell.

I think (I'm not sure), that that is the beginnings of "enlightenment", and acceptance of others as they are (not how we want them to be), is a good start in this race. Which makes me wonder, if I'm not ahead of you...

Q

[taijasi]

Q,

I'm not in a hurry. But at any rate, I fully expect - to be last.

Anyway, thanks for sharing regarding the spiritual path mutually trodden by you and your wife. Very inspiring, actually.

Agreed, that if we cannot accept others as they are, we have much work to do!

Regards,

andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Q,

I'm not in a hurry. But at any rate, I fully expect - to be last.

Anyway, thanks for sharing regarding the spiritual path mutually trodden by you and your wife. Very inspiring, actually.

Agreed, that if we cannot accept others as they are, we have much work to do!

Regards,

andrew

Hmm.

[soulatom]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

There is a fifth form of energy...scientifically acknowledged but not quite understood.

v/r

Q

I am thinking about Love as the invisible force that holds the other four known forces int he universe together, I guess that would be the Fifth Element for me.....ah other than Corbin Dallas' girlfriend, Lilu.....in the flick, of the same name ....can you help out here. s/a

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by soulatom

I am thinking about Love as the invisible force that holds the other four known forces int he universe together, I guess that would be the Fifth Element for me.....ah other than Corbin Dallas' girlfriend, Lilu.....in the flick, of the same name ....can you help out here. s/a

Well, I'd not thought of "love" as an elemental form of energy...

Plasma.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by didymus

Hey Dondi, It's hard to say how I consider myself nowadays. I carried with me some aspects of Christianity that fit for me, namely forgiveness. At times when I pray I still ask Jesus for help. I don't know if this is old habit or what but I'm not ahamed of it nor do I question it too much either. I don't believe Jesus is or was God any more than we all are. After all, didn't Jesus say, "these things and more you will do yourself". I don't know where that quote is but its in the Bible somewhere.One of the first books that changed my life was, Sermon on the Mount by Emmit Fox. Another was The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. There are countless others too.I find my path to be leading to the inner voice that I have had since a child. The voice had become so muffled through life that it was just about mute, or maybe my ears needed cleaning. God is taking me on a direct detour to my heart. When quiet enough and attentive there is a tremendous intuition and wisdom that comes from this place. I don't claim that I am my own best teacher nor is my hearing always 100% but it is becoming clearer as I go.

didymus,

I think Jesus was the ultimate ideal in what God intends for us humans to be. that His example is what we must shoot for is we are to experience the fullness of the Divine in our lives. This is not to say that someone in another religion is excluded if they are not a Christian, but that this ultimate ideal is the goal for anyone regardless of religious affiliation. Now whether Jesus was Divine is relevant in that God invested everything in Christ to communicate this ultimate ideal, specifically, God's Eternal Love. Jesus is God's Love in action. Jesus demostrated that we must operate within God's Spirit in order to accomplish the things He accomplished. You will recall that Jesus didn't begin His ministry until after He was baptized and the Spirit of God came down upon Him as symbolized in the Dove. Forgiveness is bound in the ability or willingness, I should say, for us to forgive others.

The bible is replete with scripture indicating we can partake in the divine nature. Whether or not you believe Jesus was God, at least in that respect, the fullness of God was within Him. If we are going to be as Jesus was, partaking of this divine nature, then perhaps we can become part of God and experience that fulness as well. by viewing Jesus as the ultimate example of the Divine in Humans, then we can see how He is the way, the truth, and the life, that no one can come to the Father, except through Him, that is the ultimate example he gave us. I don't know if this means that we actually "become" God, for I think that we will have to let go our ego's and let God "be" in our lives, subject to Him, for He is infinitely wiser and more intelligent than us. (Lucifer's mistake, if there is indeed a Devil, is letting his ego get the best of him, and thus forming his own will, not subject to God ).

Anyway, my point is that I've decided to stop trying harbor an "us against them" attitude in my beliefs (having been a born-again Baptist) and allow myself to see that salvation is beyond the mere profession of Christ, though that's a good start, but that there is so much more we need to learn about the Love of God and to see the POTENTIAL in others who seek the ultimate no matter what understanding others outside my understanding may have about God. The Kingdom of God is within all of us.

I look forward to looking into those books you mentioned, didymus, though I am cautious in what I read concerning Gnostic scriptures. perhaps because of my bias to them up to this point. But it is prudent to hold fast to that which is good.

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Well, I'd not thought of "love" as an elemental form of energy...

Plasma.

God is Love. The most elemental force that can be. There is an irresistable attraction pulling all atoms back to the Source of Being. That force is greater than all the other known forces. All of us have experienced how powerful emotive forces can be. They can overcome reason, and even physical limitations. Millions of people through the Ages have personally experienced the supernatural power of this Divine attraction. Until we factor that charismatic force into the nuclear equation, scientists will flounder in their effort to understand what the missing unification element is. Superficial logic has to be suspended here, and Faith must be the guide.{Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe.} As the outward thrust that was initiated by the Big Bang slows,(God's outward breath) the attractive force of Love will pull the universe back into a singularity again.
Salaam Brother