What do we know about God?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Jaiket

Definite flux.

Mostly I find the idea preposterous.
I hope this helps then.

Hey Jaiket.
this question is for you, Jaiket . please note, i was totally lamb basted before on this board for bringing this up (not by you), so i am really only interested in your response on this.

this is what I got for preposterous...

Question1)does this definition fit what you feel & think of when you try to turn unbelief into belief in God?

i am asking because it fits for me when i try the unbelief of God & it is impossible for me to get any farther & i start in with uncontrollable, outrageous laughter.
thank you for answering in advance.

preposterous
adj

• 1. Ridiculous, absurd or outrageous.
  • Thesaurus: ridiculous, laughable, absurd, asinine, crazy, bizarre, insane, foolish, unbelievable, extreme, inane, impossible, unthinkable, nonsensical, unconscionable; Antonym: reasonable.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Is it possible that you got the raise because of hard work or good performance?

If God gave you the raise because you started keeping the journal, will he withhold good things if you stop?

This sounds like superstition to me.

I know this seems harsh. As a matter of fact, I used to think the same way you do, Dondi.

You can easily reply that every miracle can be explained in rational terms of some sort, but that it's the way you see the event that matters.

This seems like a refusal to face the facts to me.

If God gave you a raise because you started keeping the journal, then if you get a parking space close to the front of the shopping mall, is that God's doing? How about the fact that you narrowly avoided a heart attack because God led you to choose one breakfast cereal over another, and that was the event that started you on the new path toward health?

Where do you stop? At what point is it superstition instead of faith?

Again, sorry to be harsh. I only want to know the truth. In fact, I don't think it's wrong to say (and I do say in my own life) that truth is more important than anything else. Even more important than any belief I hold. Even belief in God.

Well, those are my thoughts. I'll be interested to see your response.

peace,

press

pressor_kun,

Yes, indeed, I got the raise because of my hard work and good performance, etc, etc. Would I have gotten my prayer for a raise answered if I didn't have the prayer journal? Well, I'm certainly not going get answer to prayer that i don't pray. The fact of the matter is my prayer life had been lacking. By starting a journal, I hope to be more consistent in my prayer life. The journal is just a tool. And I think God answered this one to let me know that I'm going in the right direction.

I am not superstitious.

Consider this. This raise came just in time for my first mortage payment on a new house we bought. This certainly helps our financial situation. Coincidence? Maybe. If that's how you look at it.

Now I don't know about praying to get a good parking spot at the mall. I haven't thought to pray for one, but perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea the next time I am presed for time. As far as eating cereal that is not so good for you, I think God has given us common sense and common knowledge to eat healthy. I don't think it's prudent to ask God to heal you of lung cancer after being a chain smoker for twenty years.

Not every prayer is going to get answered to my satisfaction. But I believe God loves me enough to give me bread instead of a stone. I ask for things that God in his wisdom, like a good father, doesn't want me to have, or not have yet. But there has been to many "coincidences" happen to me and others I know to just brush them off.

Here's another example:

My sister in North Carolina has been trying to sell her house for some time now. Over the recent holidays, no one has even looked at the house. And before that, she was just getting curious glances over the past year.

But she has recently began to pray more (not just to sell the house, but to also get her life together, a long story). So I told her I'd pray also and jotted that prayer down in my journal. now the house has been in some disrepair, and she was spending some time and money getiing it fixed. She still had a lot to do. Not long after, she got decent offer from a retired couple from Florida who wanted to move back into the area. They brought the house "as-is" for cash. They moved in within two weeks. How often does one get a cash offer? Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe these folks finished paying off there holiday credit cards, maybe the weather has been warmer and it was time for them to move, maybe a lot of things factored in selling the house. Anyway you look at it, it was a prayer answered.

I could go on with more examples if you like, even some that didn't require a prayer journal. Prayer, to me, is a learning experience. I'm learning to pray what God wants for my life, learning to pray for what God wants for those around me, learning to pray for others so that I may develop passion for them, learning to pray for God's ultimate goal for all of us. Now I don't claim to have a corner on God (rather He has the corner on me ). Not all my prayers are answered yet. But by having a journal, I can keep record of what I'm praying for. I can record answers to specific prayers I've prayed, remember those that still need prayer, and add new ones as I go. God may give all the "wants". But I trust Him for all the needs.

Love and peace,

Dondi

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Dondi, I agree that God hears our prayers and I also believe all of what you say about your prayer journal. And I absolutly agree that you have had assistance in your life, loving and forgiving. I have too but I hesitate to discuss it because most people react as presser has, with disbelief. And it is too often that one hears the comeback, well, where was God when the Jews were praying in Auschwitz, or when my devout friend had cancer, or when I needed a job? It is a blessing to recognize God moving and being in our life, even when things are going as badly as they did for Job. Thus, I focus on the relationship and transformation, and pray with the knowledge that God hears and cares about me whether or not things go the way I want them to. And, if you listen, God does reply.

lunamoth

The fact is, we don't always know what we need to pray for, but then again we don't see the whole picture. I don't know why Jews were exterminated in concentration camps. I don't know why your friend has cancer. I don't know why you don't have a job. I don't know all the circumstances in people's lives. I do know there is good and evil in the world and bad things happen to good people (and vice versa). Bad things can happen to all of us. That's why I pray it doesn't.

All I know is that more positive things happen when I do pray, with faith that God IS and will answer, than when I don't.

But I also look beyond our current state in this world. With faith in God and the experience of God's love, I also have hope. Hope that God is going to right the wrongs, have justice tempered with mercy, restore our souls, rid us of grief and pain, bring us to a greater understanding of Him, make all things new. Without that hope, I should think I would despair life.

Until that time comes, I believe in getting things started, through the instrument of ourselves to serve God and to serve man for the common good. So let's get busy, shall we?

[presser_kun]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Dondi. It's obvious that you have a deep relationship with God. There is a lot of warmth in the way you describe your prayer life.

Are the events you describe coincidences, as you suggest they may be? I don't know. Perhaps they simply are what they are, and it is the way we perceive them that makes the difference.

peace,

press

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by Dondi

All I know is that more positive things happen when I do pray, with faith that God IS and will answer, than when I don't.

I find this very interesting, Dondi.

I started doubting whether there is a God about two years ago, after a lifetime of earnestly believing in God, praying many times a day, and depending on God for my - well, my everything.

I've had ups and downs in these two years, but just as many positive things happen in my life now as did when I believed. In fact, there are a couple of events in my life that have been major turning points - very good things. They happened after I began to doubt.

I don't attribute them to the doubt. They just happened.

What do you make of that? I for one don't have a clue what to make of it.

I'll be interested in your thoughts.

peace,

press

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Dondi. It's obvious that you have a deep relationship with God. There is a lot of warmth in the way you describe your prayer life.

Are the events you describe coincidences, as you suggest they may be? I don't know. Perhaps they simply are what they are, and it is the way we perceive them that makes the difference.

peace,

press

presser_kun,

I can only suggest you start your own prayer journal and see what happens. As lunamoth suggested, we are all scientists in a way, testing to see what's true, what works. I wish I had all the answers for you. I will tell you that I'd been on a long journey myself and went through the agnostic route before returning to belief in "something". I just can't get it in my mind that all this we see in this world, even as I reflect on my own body, that all this was brought into being through a series of "accidents". There is just too much in my own subjective experience and experiences of others (in answered prayers, in near-death and mystical experiences, in healings, etc) to think we are all alone. I realize I could be totally wrong. Maybe we just burn out into dust, I don't know. The fact is, no one know for sure, ultimately. But I find comfort in the possibility of not just surviving death, but coming into a greater place of love, joy, and peace with others seeking the same. I'd rather die with that prospect than the thought of just ending up as food for worms in a state of non existance. It helps me sleep better.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

I find this very interesting, Dondi.

I started doubting whether there is a God about two years ago, after a lifetime of earnestly believing in God, praying many times a day, and depending on God for my - well, my everything.

I've had ups and downs in these two years, but just as many positive things happen in my life now as did when I believed. In fact, there are a couple of events in my life that have been major turning points - very good things. They happened after I began to doubt.

I don't attribute them to the doubt. They just happened.

What do you make of that? I for one don't have a clue what to make of it.

I'll be interested in your thoughts.

peace,

press

Well, that is pecular. What specific good events did you have happen? I can't really give an answer without specifics (not that I would promise an adequate answer anyway). And I am interested in what kind of faith you had in God before you started to doubt.

[wil]

Namaste presser_kun

a thought on prayer...when a kid asks his parent for the same thing over and over again...does the parent listen...or get tired of the whining? I think our father may have similar issues..gratitude for life is a strong creator of it...I don't know how you prayed or what your beliefs are/were...but just thoughts...

I don't really believe that G-d worries about your doubts either, our thoughts are prayers and we are always praying...so whatever is formost in your mind affects the ethers the strongest. Allowing is another, not inflicting/controlling...

I think your questions and questioning is awesome, keep it up.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by wil

...gratitude for life is a strong creator of it...

I don't really believe that G-d worries about your doubts either, our thoughts are prayers and we are always praying...

I think your questions and questioning is awesome, keep it up.

I agree. Good points here, wil.

lunamoth

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste presser_kun

a thought on prayer...when a kid asks his parent for the same thing over and over again...does the parent listen...or get tired of the whining? I think our father may have similar issues..gratitude for life is a strong creator of it...I don't know how you prayed or what your beliefs are/were...but just thoughts...

I don't really believe that G-d worries about your doubts either, our thoughts are prayers and we are always praying...so whatever is formost in your mind affects the ethers the strongest. Allowing is another, not inflicting/controlling...

I think your questions and questioning is awesome, keep it up.

Reminds me of this parable that Jesus told in Luke 18:1-8:

"And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;



Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:



And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.



And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;



Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.



And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.



And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"



Persistence is often the key.

Love & Peace

Dondi

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

I find this very interesting, Dondi.

I started doubting whether there is a God about two years ago, after a lifetime of earnestly believing in God, praying many times a day, and depending on God for my - well, my everything.

I've had ups and downs in these two years, but just as many positive things happen in my life now as did when I believed. In fact, there are a couple of events in my life that have been major turning points - very good things. They happened after I began to doubt.

I don't attribute them to the doubt. They just happened.

What do you make of that? I for one don't have a clue what to make of it.

I'll be interested in your thoughts.

peace,

press

...and the Lord said, "Have you considered my servant, Job?"

Crisis in faith, is a part of faith as well Presser. The fact that you hold tight to your faith even today, as you question it, should tell you something.

You know the Chinese word for Crisis is actually two words put together...

Challenge and Oppertunity. I suspect you are doing both, being challenged in your faith, and taking the oppertunity to explore and find the truth for yourself.

When I was younger (about 1988), I went through a divorce. It ripped me apart, and even though I fought to keep it together, it ended. One day in a rage I turned on my own mother (who kept giving me positive input), and demanded to know why God would allow such a thing if I didn't want it, and was fighting to keep it. (I'm sure you can surmise that the rest of my life was a mess at the time as well...).

First, she said it take three to make a marriage, and if one of the three parties isn't interested, then there is no marriage. (of course I didn't want to hear that, but she was right and I knew it).

Then, in a very quiet voice she said, "Sometimes, God takes us out of the battle, even though we don't want to leave or quit, so we can heal."

I didn't know what she meant by that, then, but two years later I did come to understand it. Sometimes, God pulls us from the fray, whether we like it or not, to get us to be still. Since He promised to take care of us better than He does the birds (who want for nothing), we are to be assured that our needs will be met, and we are to depend on Him. (I bet you are a go-getter, and can take care of yourself, in fact you pride yourself on that fact...right?)

Independance can be a great strength, and a great detriment at the same time. It depends on attitude and mind set.

I didn't mean to blur the two concepts together, but if I'm barking up the wrong tree, I didn't want to be overly verbose (I just looked that word up today ).

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[presser_kun]

Friends,

I am grateful for your responses to my last post or two. I want to answer, and in a bit of detail, too. But I cannot for the next two days (unless I'm lucky). Work will consume me.

Just wanted you to know I wasn't turning a deaf ear to your warmth and responsiveness.

Ja ne!*

press

*Japanese for "see ya," or "later." A casual way of saying goodbye at the end of a conversation.

[Dondi]

I look forward to your return and further conversation, presser.

Love & peace

Dondi

[tru]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Again, sorry to be harsh. I only want to know the truth. In fact, I don't think it's wrong to say (and I do say in my own life) that truth is more important than anything else. Even more important than any belief I hold. Even belief in God.

You certainly aren't alone. Its a shared realization. Its encouraging to see your grasp of it being plausible.

[soulatom]

Originally Posted by Jaiket

Providing that, unlike me, you believe such a being exists.

Ever since the Nuclear Age began, the Lodge of science has hinted at intriguing flavors, regarding the up and down strangeness of atomic behavior.

The inexplicable responses of subatomic particles, during scientific experimentation which seem likely to defy all the known laws of physics, together with the recent focus on Dark Matter and the invisible force it exerts on physical behavior, all point in the direction of subtle metaphysical anomalies yet to be included in the nuclear equation. Physicists need to realize they have finally arrived in front of the dark cave of the eternal Unknown. For uncounted millenia tens of thousands of spiritual seekers have, after sincere trial and effort, attested to mystical encounters with the invisible presence of a supernatural force....