What do we know about God?

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Originally Posted by Bandit

why dont you teach me & others, how to believe & KNOW that God does not exist.

Maybe I can answer that one.

I will give you a description of the process I went through in abandoning my belief in God. It is not an easy process to get through (at least it was not for me) but sometimes, it has to be done.

Step 1)
First, make a logical, well considered decision that there is no God, or at least, based on the evidence available, it is unlikely that there is a God.

During this process it is essential that you ignore what your teachers told you and make a completely unbiased decision for yourself.

Step 2)
Now that you have logically decided that there is no god, you will need to accept your decision, emotionally. If you have been raised as a theist, the concept of God is deeply ingrained in your thought processes and will take some time to remove.

During this period, every time you think of God in your day to day life, (God help me, I wonder what heaven is like, etc) remind yourself that there is no God and this speculation is pointless and ludicrous.

This step may take a number of years, depending on your age.

Step 3)
It is now important that you forgive the people who indoctrinated you in the first instance, understand that they honestly believed that they were doing the right thing.

Without this important step, you will find yourself very bitter towards anything religious and it may be impossible to feel spiritual about anything for a long time.

Step 4
Look at the world around you and make up your own mind.


In my experience, it was only when I managed to get over my faith that I finally acknowledged that we know nothing about God except what we invent in our own minds.

Just my opinion.


Peace
ATF

[presser_kun]

Hi, Awaiting_the_fifth.

I'm deeply appreciative of your post describing the process you went through in abandoning your belief in God. I'm in the throes of doing just that, and find it rough going.

I've gone through and am still in each of your four steps. Think of the simultaneous download of four files, each moving at different speeds and you'll have a good picture of how I see my progress, but with one difference: the progress bar for each step moves forward and back depending on my mood and the circumstances of my life.

It's odd. The predictable pattern is that one turns to God in times of trouble, not so much when things are going well. I'm finding the opposite in my journey. When minor crises occur, I'm comfortable and confident in my decision to move under my own steam without crying out to a heavenly father. When things aren't going along too badly, I wonder if I've made the right decision.

For me, step 3 is particularly hard. The good, well-meaning people in my life are easy to forgive; the hard-nosed fundamentalists I don't know personally who persecute those who disagree with them are another matter.

So, thank you for what you said, but also for speaking up as well. So many voices here are helpful and encouraging, but you are the first atheist I've met who hasn't shouted at or disparaged the opinions of believers.

peace,

press

[Angel{">i<"}tears]

hi

I will tell you a real story happen here in my country



there is a man came to one of our Islamic gaffer and he asked 3 question, that no

one from world scientist could answer it:



he said:

“ 1- you people believe in god ,but where is he,

how you believe in something you can’t see it?



2- you people believe in destiny? but there is no destiny ,every thing in world is

coincidence?

3- you people believe that jinn made from fire ,so how god will punished it by fire

in the judgment day, and they have been made in fire??!!



Suddenly ,The Islamic gaffer slap the man in his face

The man surprise

And the gaffer said “1- tell me know did you know I’m going to slap you?? That’s what we called destiny.

2- of course you feel pain, can you characterize it to me blz ??

that what we called faith on god we feel it but can’t characterized it.

3- do you see my hand ?? it maid from dust and your face too , but you feel the pain? That’s all the answer you need

then the man became Muslim, and he is very happy now with his own family .

thanks all

peace

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Angel{">i<"}tears

hi

I will tell you a real story happen here in my country



there is a man came to one of our Islamic gaffer and he asked 3 question, that no

one from world scientist could answer it:



he said:

“ 1- you people believe in god ,but where is he,

how you believe in something you can’t see it?



2- you people believe in destiny? but there is no destiny ,every thing in world is

coincidence?

3- you people believe that jinn made from fire ,so how god will punished it by fire

in the judgment day, and they have been made in fire??!!



Suddenly ,The Islamic gaffer slap the man in his face

The man surprise

And the gaffer said “1- tell me know did you know I’m going to slap you?? That’s what we called destiny.

2- of course you feel pain, can you characterize it to me blz ??

that what we called faith on god we feel it but can’t characterized it.

3- do you see my hand ?? it maid from dust and your face too , but you feel the pain? That’s all the answer you need

then the man became Muslim, and he is very happy now with his own family .

thanks all

peace

ROFLMAO

That was precious Angel! That was too good...

v/r

Q

[Angel{">i<"}tears]

thanks I hop to help someone to find the light of truth

[Jaiket]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

In a friendly way I ask you, What is the source of your being? What is the purpose of your life?

Source of my being? I don't understand that question sorry. As for purpose, I don't believe it exists outside our heads. I haven't set one. I can tell you my hopes and dreams if you like, but I don't think that's what you're looking for, is it?

[Jaiket]

Originally Posted by Bandit

1) do you ever feel like leaning more one way than the other about God & other times the other direction? for example today it seems possible, tomorrow it it seems impossible.
or is it just always neutral with no fluxuation.?

Definite flux.

Mostly I find the idea preposterous. But when I ponder 'why anything?' and I start running into walls, the idea grows in appeal. Like most people I try to reason when possible. When I can't, for instance, wrap my head around space, time, energy, beginnings and such, and ontological dilemmas, I find myself wondering if something sparked 'everything' and if that thing might be the chap many call god. Again however, evidence lacks. I don't consider my own incredulity and limitations to be evidence of the god portrayed in the bible or anywhere else. Further, previous experience has taught me that a little bit of learning can resolve issues to my satisfaction. For instance, evolution (I know you're not a fan of this theory Bandit, but be assured that I'm not using it to annoy you). My father told me as a kid that animals evolved over time and that dinosaurs may even have become birds. I thought him mad. I then studied the fields of biology dealing with evolution and it made sense to me. It clicked.

Originally Posted by bandit

2) it seems there is a revealing request & evidence required. is that correct?
if so, what type of revealing would be required from you to know & be sure, & would you require more than one?
NOTE: i am thinking God could be revealed in different ways to different people & more than one way, depending on how receptive one is. (not sure)

I would like to know the truth, and evidence is vital to me. In terms of revelation I'm not sure. I guess an all powerful deity will have a sufficient imagination and ability to convince me if it seeks to. Re-alligning the stars would be good, since it is obviously difficlut to fake. Maybe this god could simply implant the knowledge into my brain. The second option also seems like the easiest for me.

Originally Posted by bandit

again, thank you for the replies, because this means a lot to me.

I hope this helps then.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Jaiket

Source of my being? I don't understand that question sorry. As for purpose, I don't believe it exists outside our heads. I haven't set one. I can tell you my hopes and dreams if you like, but I don't think that's what you're looking for, is it?

Yeah, it is kind of a fuzzy question, the source of your being part. Do you think there is anything more to yourself than a physical body run by chemical reactions and electric impluses? If not do you think it is possible to have free will?

As for purpose, even if it is just in your head that's pretty much all of reality for you anyway, so do you think there is a meaning to your life other than to survive as comfortably as possible? If you have dreams and aspirations, why?

I was agnostic for a long long time and during that time pretty much did not think about these questions too deeply. I guess it is the why questions and really a practical look at my life going along "rudderless" on the God question that made me look at religion again. Agnostic is the most logical position to take. But that does not necessarily make it the best. And atheism takes just as much faith in the untestable as theism does. It finally came to point where I decided to decide and belief seemd the much more positive and fulfilling choice. Little did I know that taking that step was like fanning a tiny flame that I never knew existed in me.

cheers,
lunamoth

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Jaiket

Definite flux.

Mostly I find the idea preposterous. But when I ponder 'why anything?' and I start running into walls, the idea grows in appeal. Like most people I try to reason when possible. When I can't, for instance, wrap my head around space, time, energy, beginnings and such, and ontological dilemmas, I find myself wondering if something sparked 'everything' and if that thing might be the chap many call god. Again however, evidence lacks. I don't consider my own incredulity and limitations to be evidence of the god portrayed in the bible or anywhere else. Further, previous experience has taught me that a little bit of learning can resolve issues to my satisfaction. For instance, evolution (I know you're not a fan of this theory Bandit, but be assured that I'm not using it to annoy you). My father told me as a kid that animals evolved over time and that dinosaurs may even have become birds. I thought him mad. I then studied the fields of biology dealing with evolution and it made sense to me. It clicked.

I would like to know the truth, and evidence is vital to me. In terms of revelation I'm not sure. I guess an all powerful deity will have a sufficient imagination and ability to convince me if it seeks to. Re-alligning the stars would be good, since it is obviously difficlut to fake. Maybe this god could simply implant the knowledge into my brain. The second option also seems like the easiest for me.

I hope this helps then.

definate flux is a good sign my brother

actually evolution theory does not bother me. if it is ever proven then i will believe it. i think what we are seeing is you need some evidence to prove spiritual things & i need evidence to prove material things. in that we consider things to be truth because of evidence or lack of.

very interesting post i shall ponder awhile. i will put in a request to rearrange the stars for ya.
no further questions at this time your honor.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Maybe I can answer that one.

I will give you a description of the process I went through in abandoning my belief in God. It is not an easy process to get through (at least it was not for me) but sometimes, it has to be done.


Step 4
Look at the world around you and make up your own mind.


In my experience, it was only when I managed to get over my faith that I finally acknowledged that we know nothing about God except what we invent in our own minds.

Just my opinion.


Peace
ATF

thanks ATF. number four i can relate to. kind of like rehab? if i follow the other steps that would be more effort for me than sticking with what i already have come to know. IOW- it is impossible for me to do.

[Jaiket]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Do you think there is anything more to yourself than a physical body run by chemical reactions and electric impluses? If not do you think it is possible to have free will?

I am inclined to go for 'no' on both counts.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

If you have dreams and aspirations, why?

Honestly, I am not sure.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

And atheism takes just as much faith in the untestable as theism does.

My experience has suggested a lack of belief in the untestable is not as big a leap as belief in the untestable. I am an atheist because I see no reason meriting belief in deities, I didn't employ faith to reach this answer.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

It finally came to point where I decided to decide and belief seemd the much more positive and fulfilling choice. Little did I know that taking that step was like fanning a tiny flame that I never knew existed in me.

Well if it's there and if it's true I am sure I'll find it at some stage.

[presser_kun]

The little dialog between lunamoth and jaiket is interesting. One (luna) seems to reach, the other (jaiket) seems to wait.

Luna, are you reaching for what you want to be there? I know I've done that before.

Jaiket, are you waiting for evidence? I've done that, too.

I wonder if the answer lies in Schrodinger's Paradox. The physicist explained one of the basic principles of quantum mechanics by use of this thought experiment.

Put a cat in a box, sealed so that it cannot be observed (but can breathe). Along with the cat put a vial of poisonous gas that can be broken open by a device triggered by the decay of a radioactive isotope.

The decay could take place at any time, but not at a specified time.

Question: After a given period of time, is the cat dead or alive?

Answer: It is both. Both states exist simultaneously. It is the "act of observation" that causes the waveform (both states) to collapse into a single state reality.

Do we get what we want to see in the box? Is each person's heaven or hell what they construct here on earth?

And is the "God is/isn't" quantum waveform something that collapses into a single state only when we observe what's in the box?

My head is spinning.

peace,

press (who just wants to know what he should believe.)

[lunamoth]

Thank you for your reply, Jaiket. It is a pleasure conversing with you. I guess I can see how atheism, at least a soft atheism, could be a default position in the absence of scientific evidence, if that is the only cirteria that will satisfy. I'm pretty sure my father looks at things the same way as you do. It's cliche to say so, but science fails to answer the 'why' questions (why am I here? why do I love?). For a long time I figured I was a faith-challenged person. I did not have a blind faith, I could not relate to people who expressed faith (by their words, anyway). I figured that if there was a God He had more or less left me out of the loop. Obviously that has changed.
cheers,
lunamoth

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Luna, are you reaching for what you want to be there? I know I've done that before.

(who just wants to know what he should believe.)

Hi press, I think of it more as working on a relationship with God, Whom I know is there. But I will mediate on your question a bit more and perhaps I can expound upon that. Or not...

Keep asking your questions press.

peace,
lunamoth

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I will mediate on your question a bit more and perhaps I can expound upon that. Or not...

Keep asking your questions press.

peace,
lunamoth

Thank you. I value your thoughts and opinions quite a bit.

press