What do Jews think of Mohammed?

[BlaznFattyz]

i read it and i see prophecies of jesus. some fulfilled some still future. and isaiah just being one of many prophets that intertwine with disciples and apostles that same stories about jesus. you dont have to respond really, because i wont continue anymore on this conversation, but it seems to me that there is a lot of energy going into finding ways to deny jesus christ, and to ignore other books written by jews that continue the story of the jews and of the messiah that has come and will come again. makes me wonder who told you what to ignore and deny other parts of your culture and history.

[dauer]

i read it and i see prophecies of jesus. some fulfilled some still future.

That doesn't make any sense. You can't see prophecies about a dead man that he's going to fulfill in the future. He's dead. Further, the servant is clearly identified as Israel, the entity, and not an individual. Take a look, for example, at 41:8, 44:1, 44:21, 45:4, 49:3. Or even just read chapter 52 all by itself. Then, after you've done that, see how that fits with the surrounding passages.

nd isaiah just being one of many prophets that intertwine with disciples and apostles that same stories about jesus.

Or perhaps, the myth makers who created Jesus' story were intentionally modelling it after what they believed were prophecies in the Septuagint, as well as with archetypes from stories in the Septuagint, and archetypes in pagan myth.

you dont have to respond really, because i wont continue anymore on this conversation,

That's fine, you don't have to. But I'm not going to let the last word on the Jewish board be that Jesus is right for everyone and the Jews better start to realize how wrong they've been for all these generations. It's essentially saying that Judaism is wrong. Christianity is right. Even though it is Christianity that adopted the Jewish sacred texts for its own purposes (and at times because of it,) there are those within the Christian community who feel the need to tell the Jews that their way to their own texts is wrong, and the people who really know the Jewish texts and their meanings are outsiders.

but it seems to me that there is a lot of energy going into finding ways to deny jesus christ,

We're not finding ways to deny Jesus. There simply is no reason at all to accept him, and every reason within the Jewish religion not to. And the burden of proof as always falls on the ones who make the claim, and not the ones who are not interested in the claim. I am sure that, like many people, you have had subjective experiences which validate your religious beliefs, but so have Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Bahais, Wiccans, etc. It is no reason to force your rhetoric of inferiority on us.

and to ignore other books written by jews that continue the story of the jews and of the messiah that has come and will come again.

Just because a Jew writes something, that doesn't make it an important Jewish texts. Indeed, it could be a heretical text, and remain that way to this day, because of the content. Take, for example, another false messiah claimant, Shabtai Tzvi, and his herald, Nathan. You can read about them here:

Sabbatai Zevi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, they may have been Jewish, but that doesn't mean their teachings were Jewish teachings. So your claim that it was Jews who wrote books doesn't really mean much. There is also the other issue, the issue that those who actually do accept Jesus as some sort of divinity are possibly karet, in which case you could really say that they're in some way no longer part of the Jewish community at all anyway.

makes me wonder who told you what to ignore and deny other parts of your culture and history.

It's not my culture and history. It's yours. Now please stop inferring that Christianity is Jewish or anything similar. It's not, and the Christ myth has more in common with the pagan beliefs of Rome than it does with Jewish ones.

I presume you won't be responding based on your previous post, which is just as well since Jesus has nothing to do with the Jewish religion.

Dauer

[LeoSalinas22]

hey dauer,

If you go by the Greek Testament, Jesus did break laws, for example, he bore a grudge in Matt 10:33, cursed an Israelite in ibid 23:33, gave misleading advice in ibid 19:9. As well as telling people they could work on the sabbath. Now, you may say that he didn't think any pharisaic tradition applied (which would work in some cases), but if you look at, for example, Matt 23:1-3 you'll see that, quite the opposite.

i was reading this thread when i suddenly asked my self,"what book is "ibid"? also, was wondering, from a jewish perspective, will the messiah be perfect and not commit mistakes? thanks. hope to hear from you soon.

leo

[dauer]

Hey Leo.

From wikipedia on ibid:

Ibid (Latin, short for "ibidem", "the same place", abbreviated "Ib.") is the term used to provide an endnote or footnote citation or reference for a source that was cited in the preceding endnote or footnote. It is similar in meaning to idem (meaning something that has been mentioned previously; the same[1]), abbreviated "Id.," which is commonly used in legal citation.

Ibid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also, was wondering, from a jewish perspective, will the messiah be perfect and not commit mistakes?

Nope. Human like the rest of us, albeit probably a mentch. For Judaism it's not so much about the individual, the messiah, as it is about the time to come and the changes that take place then.

Dauer

[LeoSalinas22]

Originally Posted by dauer

If you read that chapter in the context of the rest of Isaiah instead of picking out one chapter from the rest, you'll see that servant is identified by name as Israel.

Dauer

ok, i have read most of isaiah, but isn't the nation of israel usually refered to as a "she", adulterous wife. i have never read in the old testament where God referes to israel as a man. unless, you meant jacob in genesis? for instance:
Jeremiah 3:1-5 1 They say, F11 If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.Jeremiah 3:20-25 20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, F17 so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
now please understand, dauer, i am not trying to convince you of Jesus' validity as the Messiah, but this is mainly for my understanding of your religion. i have been reading alot on judaism lately just to understand the mindset that a jewish person has for it fascinates me so much because as i mentioned on the other thread, the jewish people carry the promise of the covenant with God. this is the highest honor anyone on this planet can have. i wish i was jewish, you know and not a gentile, know what i mean? anyways, hope to hear from you soon and by all means, prove me wrong. we only understand better when we are corrected, right? i would also like to hear the point of view from the man who has a banana for a brain. hope he reads this.
God bless you.

[LeoSalinas22]

hi again dauer,
i don't mean to speak on behalf of blazn so please don't think i am playing the part of "nosey neighbor". just want to understand you. please tell me if i am being out of line. thanks. here we go.

That doesn't make any sense. You can't see prophecies about a dead man that he's going to fulfill in the future. He's dead.

its sad to me when i hear this. sad because we think so differently and there is nothing i can say to you to think otherwise. only God will clear this up and not man. i take it you don't believe in resurrection?

Further, the servant is clearly identified as Israel, the entity, and not an individual. Take a look, for example, at 41:8, 44:1, 44:21, 45:4, 49:3. Or even just read chapter 52 all by itself. Then, after you've done that, see how that fits with the surrounding passages.

man, we do think so differently! i have read those scriptures in isaiah and you are absolutely right. but you can't really say that Isaiah 53 is mentioning just jacob or the nation of israel because if you notice in the scriptures that you gave, God always says,"Jacob My servant or Israel My servant." in other words, He makes it a point to say who or who is the servant. Isaiah 53, God never says who is the servant. so please understand us Christ followers because in Isaiah 53 it is written:
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
i don't see how Jacob bore the sins of many or how the nation of Israel wil do this. to us it doesn't make sense. know what i mean? plus, as i mentioned before, God didn't specify who is the servant. of course you know there are many "servants" throughout the Tanach. for instance:
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Exodus 4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, F9 neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

Psalms 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. (servant in this case being King David.)

Isaiah 20:3 And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia...

well, dauer, i hope i haven't offended you. i really enjoy our conversations and i hope to hear from you soon.

God bless you.

[dauer]

ok, i have read most of isaiah, but isn't the nation of israel usually refered to as a "she", adulterous wife. i have never read in the old testament where God referes to israel as a man. unless, you meant jacob in genesis?

Both he and she are simply to serve as analogies. Israel isn't actually female or male. And in other places, Israel is referred to as G!d's son.

“My son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

“Thus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Deuteronomy 4:22)

“When Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son” (Hosea 11:1)

How can Israel be both a son to G!d and a wife to G!d? It's because it's establishing the ways in which G!d and Israel relate via analogy. Just like G!d isn't really a king or a rock. And the concept of partner isn't always adulterous either. If you look at song of songs for example, it's a positive relationship.

its sad to me when i hear this. sad because we think so differently and there is nothing i can say to you to think otherwise. only God will clear this up and not man. i take it you don't believe in resurrection?

I don't, and in the Christian sense Judaism never does. There is an idea interpreted differently by different people that in olam haba the dead will all come back. But as I said interpretation varies greatly. It may be in a spiritual sense, it may be a physical body that will end up dying again. However in either case that's after the messiah has already come.

but you can't really say that Isaiah 53 is mentioning just jacob or the nation of israel because if you notice in the scriptures that you gave, God always says,"Jacob My servant or Israel My servant." in other words, He makes it a point to say who or who is the servant. Isaiah 53,

I don't think the absence of giving a specific identity really makes that reference any different. When it was written there were no chapter breaks. It was just one continuous book. If you're reading a story and it talks about, "My son, Edgar." "Edgar, my kid." "My little boy, Eddy." and then a little later with the identity established it just says, "My son." then the identity doesn't need to be reestablished. It already has been.

i don't see how Jacob bore the sins of many or how the nation of Israel wil do this. to us it doesn't make sense. know what i mean?

I don't really know what you mean. Israel (the people not the modern nation) has been persecuted through most of its existence, generally just for being Israel and observing the mitzvot.

of course you know there are many "servants" throughout the Tanach.

There are other servants, but the only passage you presented with any relevance to the discussion is the one from Isaiah. You could use it too suggest that Isaiah is the servant, however if you read 52 and 53 the servant being mentioned in that passage, read continuously instead of separated based on the chapter breaks inserted later, it implies Israel. Isaiah is mentioned much earlier.

I would suggest you read:

http://www.kesser.org/moshiach/rambam.html

and also

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/moshiach.pdf

The second one is a countermissionary text so the tone may offend you a little, but the content is good.

well, dauer, i hope i haven't offended you. i really enjoy our conversations and i hope to hear from you soon.

Don't worry. It takes a lot to offend me.

Dauer

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

6. the "prophet" then mysteriously discovers that judaism was wrong all along and that jews "changed" their own sacred texts in order to conceal the forthcoming revelation from him, the "new and improved prophet".

Shalom BB

Forgive me but this is not my understanding, although that may be my lack of knowledge. I was not told that the Jews had changed their sacred texts but that they had broken their covenant with G-d. Therefore G-d had sent more Prophets (in all time it is estimated 124,000 plus Prophets to all nations - you would think we would have got the message right by now ) to 're-state' His message and put us back on the right path. As I am sure you know we are taught to respect all the Prophets (although how I am supposed to work out who the 124,000 are is beyond me), going right back to Abraham (pbuh).

You told me once that the animosity between Jews and Muslims is quite a modern trait and having read more about it, I agree with you. Because of political tentions Muslims have looked for reasons to be anti-Jewish and for them where better to look than to the word of G-d but just because something is misinterpreted or corrupted by the reader does not make it 'from G-d'. I just hope one day peace can be found in the Middle East and Jews and Muslims can return to their former respect and friendship.

Salaam