What did the Pharisees represent?

[chokmah]

Originally Posted by wil

a long time ago I read a couple of different books which indicated that Josephus and family wrote the gospels and much of the NT. That the Romans were concerned as to the number of Jews and sought to create a system which would divide them... tis this of what Joseph Atwill wrote? I also remember a pamphlet regarding same which was saying that their was no reason to not prove Jesus was messiah, simply prove he never existed...

Here are the key points that I can think of that Joseph wants to present as theory:

1) The Flavians wrote the Gospels. This would include Domitian, Titus, and the adopted son: Josephus.
2) The purpose was two-fold: give the Jews a pacifistic Messiah to follow instead of the one dictated in the Tanakh, get them to worship Caesar as G-d.

There may be more, but I'm only at the beginning of the book.

[bananabrain]

I apologize for over-stepping my bounds.

no need to apologise! personally, experience has taught me to be very careful making categorical statements, particularly about the Talmud.

May I ask another question? Does judaism have to make sure that a Priest is from the Levite tribe, as Levite is only mentioned 3 times in the GNT.

if you want to learn about this, i suggest taking a look at http://www.cohen-levi.org which is dedicated to providing information about it.

Case in point: the High Priest was determined by Caesar. This was a ploy by Caesar to have a hand in what was going on and also to be somewhat over the Jewish people

the rabbis also complain about the corruption of the high-priesthood in various places.

as for this:

1) The Flavians wrote the Gospels. This would include Domitian, Titus, and the adopted son: Josephus.
2) The purpose was two-fold: give the Jews a pacifistic Messiah to follow instead of the one dictated in the Tanakh, get them to worship Caesar as G!D.

sounds a little far-fetched to me. there was never any chance of jews worshipping caesar, for a start.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[chokmah]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

sounds a little far-fetched to me. there was never any chance of jews worshipping caesar, for a start.

Granted. I think that is a secondary issue to the idea of a pacifistic Messiah.

The thing that I am finding out somewhat fascination thus far is that the timeline of Titus' battles falls in line with ministerial considerations of Jesus.

[Curios Mike]

Quoted from Chokmah

Nope. Jesus is not in the Talmud. Pretty interesting consideration for the supposed Jewish Messiah, huh? Paul isn't mentioned as being a student of Gamaliel's even though the teacher's prominent students are mentioned.

Are their any ancient Historical documents of Moses and The exodus in any Ancient Egypt Historical writings?

[chokmah]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

Are their any ancient Historical documents of Moses and The exodus in any Ancient Egypt Historical writings?

Honestly, I do not know. Sorry.

[I, Brian]

Mike, try "Test of Time" by David Rohl. It's the only book I can think of offhand focused on the topic. Some contentious ideas, but interesting.

[bananabrain]

it's about as likely as the current egyptian government putting up a statue to commemorate the battle of mitla pass in the 1973 yom kippur war.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Curios Mike]

I guess the reason I posted this is why do you think its hard to find history on Moses and Jesus aside from the groups who follow them? Both where I guess a thorn in the side of their adversaries, and possibly and Imbarressment to their adversaries. But Yes I do find it an

interesting consideration for the supposed Jewish Messiah

, and the chosen one of God to deliver Isreal from Egypt not be in any other historical documents other then that of those who follow both of their teachings. But yes if any of you can find something on both I would love to see, it would make great reading. Becuase it is puzzling, but doesnt mean neither existed, or done the things they did does it?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

...why do you think its hard to find history on Moses and Jesus aside from the groups who follow them? Both where I guess a thorn in the side of their adversaries, and possibly and Imbarressment to their adversaries. ... not be in any other historical documents other then that of those who follow both of their teachings. But yes if any of you can find something on both I would love to see, it would make great reading. Becuase it is puzzling, but doesnt mean neither existed, or done the things they did does it?

While I can't with any completeness answer your question, and feel it is a valid question...it causes me to ask more. What documents do we have of that time period, discussing that time period? I'm referring to what is available in the area and of the time that these men walked the earth...that does not reference them?

I say this because I consider the texts that make up the books, and how they were written over time by various groups of people...and then later compiled into their seperate canonized works. ie they were only 'today' compiled as the books of those that follow them..and when you read some of the books that were not included...you can see why the followers chose what appeared to be the books most in line with the thinking of the followers...

[chokmah]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

I guess the reason I posted this is why do you think its hard to find history on Moses and Jesus aside from the groups who follow them? Both where I guess a thorn in the side of their adversaries, and possibly and Imbarressment to their adversaries. But Yes I do find it an , and the chosen one of God to deliver Isreal from Egypt not be in any other historical documents other then that of those who follow both of their teachings. But yes if any of you can find something on both I would love to see, it would make great reading. Becuase it is puzzling, but doesnt mean neither existed, or done the things they did does it?

Personally, I wouldn't put Moses and Jesus on the same level. But that's just me.

One thing that supports Moses' actual existence is that he penned five books. Jesus never wrote a thing (at least that we have record of).

As a side note, considering that Jesus is supposed to be the greatest human being who ever walked the earth, one would think that there would be tons of substantiation to his existence outside of the Christian canon. Moses is important only to the Jews. Therefore, the consideration that you raise is a bit askew.

[wil]

Moses is important only to the Jews.

Seems to me Moses is important to Christians, Muslims and Jews....in the US the movie the Ten Commandments has been shown and watched every year for what 40 years! Anytime a quasi historical religious picture is presented that many times to a prime time audience says the theme means a little bit to somebody...and this picture mainly portrays the life of Moses...

Do the current studies still indicate the books were penned by Moses? I thought that has been modified. Does anyone know the age of the most ancient of these books and how much of the book is intact? (I'm inquiring as to an actual artifact here)

[chokmah]

Originally Posted by wil

Seems to me Moses is important to Christians, Muslims and Jews....in the US the movie the Ten Commandments has been shown and watched every year for what 40 years! Anytime a quasi historical religious picture is presented that many times to a prime time audience says the theme means a little bit to somebody...and this picture mainly portrays the life of Moses...

It has taken me all my life to finally understand that Moses, being a Jew, and the Torah, being a Jewish document, are of primary importance to Jews. I, as a Gentile, am not called to be Torah observant. I attempt to follow the Seven Laws of Noach. With that being said, I find there to be great amounts of fruit to be gleaned from the rest of the Tanakh; however, it is a Jewish document that outlines Jewish history. Christians and Muslims have an interest in it, because of their own metaphorical/allegorical situations, but the fact of the matter is that it's Jewish.

Originally Posted by wil

Do the current studies still indicate the books were penned by Moses? I thought that has been modified.

Forgive me, wil, for not clarifying. I am speaking of rabbinic tradition. The same tradition that says that Moses wrote the Pentateuch is also decidedly quiet on any existence of Jesus. That's the perspective I was coming from.

Originally Posted by wil

Does anyone know the age of the most ancient of these books and how much of the book is intact? (I'm inquiring as to an actual artifact here)

Not my area of knowledge, sorry.

[Curios Mike]

Does anyone know the age of the most ancient of these books and how much of the book is intact?

I'm not totaly sure But I think the dead sea scrolls are the oldest we have. I'd google it.

Personally, I wouldn't put Moses and Jesus on the same level

Both Had a big part to play in history(traditionaly speaking). Both according to tradition played apart in setting people free. Both are only recognized by their followers, but not by other parties involved in their own unique situation. As I agree both are on different levels, but both play very important roles. Kinda like a floor of a building and a roof.

I am speaking of rabbinic tradition. The same tradition that says that Moses wrote the Pentateuch is also decidedly quiet on any existence of Jesus.

Tradition meaning the Talmud? I just read its history ( Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) WOW It would not surprise me if You found any Christianity stuff in their. From the Pope Forbidding it, to the jews rewriting it. Man what a terrible History and sad. But We both Know the world has never fully accepted either religion to its purist form, and mostly persecuted us, or we each other. But Some of what I've read, would confirm to me why their is not much writing of Christ if any in the Talmud. Being that the Christians of that day didnt seem very Christ like. Of course not much has changed .

I also did a google search on Christ in the Talmud, and couldnt find any middle ground all was pretty much one way or the other with hate and anger in their writings about either Christ or the Talmud.......

But I did find a Talmud sight which doesnt seem hatefull The Talmud (Translated by Michael L. Rodkinson) ....

Could I get one of you guys to glance at it and tell me if it is cosure: OR maybe one of you guys Recognize this guy? I am interested in this, beucase before I came in here I never knew their was a talmud aside from tradition of the elders and the books of the old testament.

One thing that supports Moses' actual existence is that he penned five books. Jesus never wrote a thing (at least that we have record of).

Jesus lived to be 32 or 33, and was only in his ministry for 3 years, and was pretty much hated by the scribes and preist. That would kinda of make it a little hard to write and publish a book in that era. But their was a lot of his deciples writtings about him after words. Moses lived much longer, and wasnt totally hated, though I'm sure he musta wondered a few times .

Anyways being that we have gotten off topic, we may have to agree to disagree on certian things, but I have learned a lot. And found some new reading material . THANX VERY MUCH. But maybe we should start a discussion similar to this on the compare section if their is not one?
Thanx guys

[bananabrain]

i've always found sacred-texts.com, to be reliable, rather than kosher, which for me would imply affiliation with a recognised jewish authority, group or institution, if you get my drift.

if you are an academic or a historian, there is very little of what would be considered hard and fast "proof" that such a person as moses actually existed. i mean, it was 3000 years ago and he didn't build monuments. apparently books don't count because they're not large, immovable stone objects. i don't think anyone seriously doubts jesus existed as a human being, as opposed to absolutely everything else about him - what he said, what he meant, who his parents were, what his opinions and practices were and so on. with moses, there's a lot of consensus around all of these things, but absolutely no "hard" evidence.

for religious people, whether jewish or christian, i think relying on secular/academic/supposedly impartial and objective validation for a religious belief or viewpoint is a waste of time; that's why it's called "belief". i don't believe in the postman, because i don't have to.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Curios Mike]

for religious people, whether jewish or christian, i think relying on secular/academic/supposedly impartial and objective validation for a religious belief or viewpoint is a waste of time; that's why it's called "belief". i don't believe in the postman, because i don't have to.

That wasnt quite the point I was pointing out. Both men Existed, but Aparently the ones that was persecuting them didnt want it in history.

But this point aside you may find this sight very interesting, about the proof of Isreals biblical history:


Debate Topics: Historical


ps: Its the same sight I was asking yah to look it. ( sacred text)