what convinced you your faith is the truth? - Page 10

Promethium · 11-29-2006, 09:11 AM

In probably 10 years, no book of the Bab will be available and probably even the position of the Bab altered to suit the new Bahai doctrine. I have been seeing the official Bahai web site for more than 10 years now. How the position of the Bab was changed from the Mahdi to an independent prophet - where did the Bab claim to be an independent prophet in his life?

"That the Bab, the inaugurator of the Babi dispensation, is fully entitled to rank as one of the self-sufficient Manifestations of God, that he has been invested with sovereign power and authority, and exercises all the rights and prerogatives of independent Prophethood.."
Shoghi Effendi
The World Order of Baha'u'llah page 123
copyright 1938

The Bahais have upheld the Bab's Prophet staus for awhile.
The webmasters of the site must be working hard on adding detailed accurate information.

"I am, I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person." ("The Dawn-Breakers", pp. 315-316)

^^After reading that, one starts to think that the Bahais assertion of the Bab's Prophethood isnt so farfetched afterall.

I bring you references from 6-7 books of the Bab and I can produce more where the Bab says unilaterally, clearly, unquivocally and without any ambiguity that he is not the Mahdi. And all of these are forgeries. All of them?? Who are you guys fooling

Bahais do have valid reason to suspect forgeries and be skeptical of certain accounts. One non-Bahai scholar chimes in about certain accounts during the Bab's examination by Muslims in Tabriz.

"And as for the Muslim accounts, those which we have before us do not bear the stamp of truth: they seem to be forgeries. Knowing what we do of the Bab it is probable that he had the best of the argument and that the doctors and functionaries who attended the meeting were unwilling to put upon record their own fiasco." (Dr. T. K. Cheyne's "The Reconciliation of Race and Religions," p. 62.)

Allah protected the revelation of Mohammed for more than 1400 years but could protect the revelation of the Bab for even 100 years. What a shame.
Since 1976, they are still translating and deciphering the words of the Bab. The Bayan is absent, Dalaelus Sabah is absent, Tafseer's Kausar which Shoghi refers to in God Passes By is missing and so is Sahifae Adaliyah.

One might say God protects whichever verses He Wills.
It was around 653 that Uthman compiled the sayings of Muhammad into the Quran. The ones decided as authentic were kept after careful investigation.
It wasn't until 1649 that an english translation of the Quran was made.(by Alexander Ross). Many wouldnt fault the Bahais for meticoulosly investigating authenticity or for not providing a full english translation of all the Bab's writings. The Bahais have two Revelations in which to translate writings from. Bahais also believe Baha'u'llah had the power to abrogate the Bab's llaws as well as uphold others(calendar). They therefore concentrate primarily on translating Baha'u'llah's writings. Not to mention the fact that just the Bab's writings alone may exceed the verses in the Quran in volume. One source states that the Bab was said to have revealed as many as 500,000 verses. see(A critical survey of the sources for early Babi Doctrine and History by Denis MacEoin)

10 years ago, E G Browne was the undisputed "independent" English historian who brought out the truth of Bahaism to the world through his writings. Now he is labelled a "historian with political agenda". Why?

Someone graciously supplied us evidence earlier that E.G. Browne may have had a bias on certain issues. E.G. Brown is still a respected historian and scholar, its just that there is evidence that his personal beliefs may have interfered when it came to support for the Azalis..

The word of Allah will be the last.

"For each (such person) there are (angels) in succession, before and behind him: They guard him by command of Allah. "
-Al Quran

imranshaykh · 11-29-2006, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Promethium

In probably 10 years, no book of the Bab will be available and probably even the position of the Bab altered to suit the new Bahai doctrine. I have been seeing the official Bahai web site for more than 10 years now. How the position of the Bab was changed from the Mahdi to an independent prophet - where did the Bab claim to be an independent prophet in his life?

"That the Bab, the inaugurator of the Babi dispensation, is fully entitled to rank as one of the self-sufficient Manifestations of God, that he has been invested with sovereign power and authority, and exercises all the rights and prerogatives of independent Prophethood.."
Shoghi Effendi
The World Order of Baha'u'llah page 123
copyright 1938

The Bahais have upheld the Bab's Prophet staus for awhile.
The webmasters of the site must be working hard on adding detailed accurate information.

"I am, I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person." ("The Dawn-Breakers", pp. 315-316)

^^After reading that, one starts to think that the Bahais assertion of the Bab's Prophethood isnt so farfetched afterall.

MY POINT IS THAT THE BAB NEVER MADE THE CLAIM. THE CLAIM EVOLVED MUCH MUCH LATER - EVEN BAHAULLAH DID NOT CLAIM THAT BAB WAS A PROPHET.

THE QUOTATION WHICH YOU HAVE GIVEN FROM DAWN BREAKERS IS CORRECT. HOWEVER IT IS OUT OF CONTEXT. READ DAWN BREAKERS AGAIN. THE QUOTATION IS GIVEN IN THE CONTEXT OF BAB BEING THE MAHDI OF ISLAM, A POINT WHICH I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO CLARIFY.

BAB DID NOT CLAIM TO BE A PROPHET. THE BAHAIS ELEVATED HIM TO THAT PEDESTAL.

I bring you references from 6-7 books of the Bab and I can produce more where the Bab says unilaterally, clearly, unquivocally and without any ambiguity that he is not the Mahdi. And all of these are forgeries. All of them?? Who are you guys fooling

Bahais do have valid reason to suspect forgeries and be skeptical of certain accounts. One non-Bahai scholar chimes in about certain accounts during the Bab's examination by Muslims in Tabriz.

"And as for the Muslim accounts, those which we have before us do not bear the stamp of truth: they seem to be forgeries. Knowing what we do of the Bab it is probable that he had the best of the argument and that the doctors and functionaries who attended the meeting were unwilling to put upon record their own fiasco." (Dr. T. K. Cheyne's "The Reconciliation of Race and Religions," p. 62.)

THESE ARE NOT MUSLIM ACCOUNTS. MUSLIMS COULD NOT CARE LESS ABOUT THE BAB. HIS RELIGION DID NOT SPREAD MUCH DURING HIS PERIOD. HOW MANY PEOPLE OUTSIDE IRAN KNEW OF THE BAB, MUCH LESS THOSE IN IRAN. WHAT I AM REFERRING TO IS THE BOOKS OF THE BAB HIMSELF.

Allah protected the revelation of Mohammed for more than 1400 years but could protect the revelation of the Bab for even 100 years. What a shame.
Since 1976, they are still translating and deciphering the words of the Bab. The Bayan is absent, Dalaelus Sabah is absent, Tafseer's Kausar which Shoghi refers to in God Passes By is missing and so is Sahifae Adaliyah.

One might say God protects whichever verses He Wills.
It was around 653 that Uthman compiled the sayings of Muhammad into the Quran. The ones decided as authentic were kept after careful investigation.
It wasn't until 1649 that an english translation of the Quran was made.(by Alexander Ross). Many wouldnt fault the Bahais for meticoulosly investigating authenticity or for not providing a full english translation of all the Bab's writings. The Bahais have two Revelations in which to translate writings from. Bahais also believe Baha'u'llah had the power to abrogate the Bab's llaws as well as uphold others(calendar). They therefore concentrate primarily on translating Baha'u'llah's writings. Not to mention the fact that just the Bab's writings alone may exceed the verses in the Quran in volume. One source states that the Bab was said to have revealed as many as 500,000 verses. see(A critical survey of the sources for early Babi Doctrine and History by Denis MacEoin)

YOU ARE SADLY MISTAKEN. USMAN WAS MURDERED IN 35 HIJRI - 25 YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET. IS THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1400 YEARS AND 200 YEARS OR NOT? 1400 YEARS AGO, THE MEDIUM OF COMMUNICATION AND TRANSPORT AND VERIFICATION WERE LESS SOPHISTICATED THAN 200 YEARS AGO? ASSUMING QURAN WAS COMPLIED DURING THE TIME OF USMAN, EVEN THEN IN SUCH A SOCIETY, THE ENTIRE QURAN WAS COMPILIED WITHIN 20 YEARS OF THE PASSING OF THE PROPHET. IN ANY CASE, USMAN COMPILATION OF THE SCRIPT IS WHAT WAS ACCEPTED AND MADE COMMON. QURAN EXISTED EVEN BEFORE THAT IN A COMPLIED FORM WITH ALI.

10 years ago, E G Browne was the undisputed "independent" English historian who brought out the truth of Bahaism to the world through his writings. Now he is labelled a "historian with political agenda". Why?

Someone graciously supplied us evidence earlier that E.G. Browne may have had a bias on certain issues. E.G. Brown is still a respected historian and scholar, its just that there is evidence that his personal beliefs may have interfered when it came to support for the Azalis..

EVIDENCE, JUST BECAUSE HE DID NOT SUPPORT THE BAHAI VIEWPOINT? SO IS HE INDEPENDENT ONLY TILL HE SPEAKS THE LANGUAGE OF THE BAHAIS?

The word of Allah will be the last.

"For each (such person) there are (angels) in succession, before and behind him: They guard him by command of Allah. "
-Al Quran

can you give me the reference for the above verse of the quran and what exactly is the interpretation (which I suspect sadly, will be entirely your own and not that of the prophet) what did you want to convey with this verse.

Apologies for writing everything in caps. It is not meant to be rude, just wrote in caps below every point to highlight my response.

Regards
Imran

Promethium · 11-29-2006, 12:13 PM

MY POINT IS THAT THE BAB NEVER MADE THE CLAIM. THE CLAIM EVOLVED MUCH MUCH LATER ....BAB DID NOT CLAIM TO BE A PROPHET. THE BAHAIS ELEVATED HIM TO THAT PEDESTAL.

But the Báb did not stop even with the claim of Mihdíhood. He adopted the sacred title of "Nuqtiyiula" or "Primal Point." This was a title applied to Muhammad Himself by His followers. Even the Imáms were secondary in importance to the "Point," from Whom they derived their inspiration and authority. In assuming this title, the Báb claimed to rank, like Muhammad, in the series of great Founders of Religion,
-Baha'u'llah and the New Era by J.E. Esslemont page 16

I am the Primal Point...
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 12

In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the ‘Point of the Bayán’; the day of Him Whom God shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom God shall make manifest....
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 126

^^ In the previous passage the Bab briefly talks about the Dispensations/Day of various Prophets of God. He talks about the "day of the 'Point of the Bayan'"
Consider the next passage.

For in the forthcoming Revelation it is He Who is the Remembrance of God, whereas the devotions which thou art offering at present have been prescribed by the Point of the Bayán...
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 94

The Bab considers Himself a Prophet.

- EVEN BAHAULLAH DID NOT CLAIM THAT BAB WAS A PROPHET.

Magnify Thou, O Lord my God, Him Who is the Primal Point, the Divine Mystery, the Unseen Essence, the Dayspring of Divinity, and the Manifestation of Thy Lordship...
-Baha'u'llah, excerpt taken from a Bahai Fasting prayer

Baha'u'llah considered the Bab a Prophet.

YOU ARE SADLY MISTAKEN. USMAN WAS MURDERED IN 35 HIJRI - 25 YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET. IS THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1400 YEARS AND 200 YEARS OR NOT? 1400 YEARS AGO, THE MEDIUM OF COMMUNICATION AND TRANSPORT AND VERIFICATION WERE LESS SOPHISTICATED THAN 200 YEARS AGO? ASSUMING QURAN WAS COMPLIED DURING THE TIME OF USMAN, EVEN THEN IN SUCH A SOCIETY, THE ENTIRE QURAN WAS COMPILIED WITHIN 20 YEARS OF THE PASSING OF THE PROPHET. IN ANY CASE, USMAN COMPILATION OF THE SCRIPT IS WHAT WAS ACCEPTED AND MADE COMMON. QURAN EXISTED EVEN BEFORE THAT IN A COMPLIED FORM WITH ALI.

I seem to have been confused in presenting my points.I was in no way trying to insult the Quran or the Muslims during that time. I agree with you that Usman died after the prophet. Yes you are correct, 1400 years ago the medium of communication was different than 200 years ago. And one would certainly expect that printing and translation as well as distribution of Bahai books would be much much faster than that of the past. 20 years was a fast time to compile Quran.

I dont think its a matter of only taking E.G. Browne's point when he supports the Bahais. Just basically saying that his scholarly analysis, while certainly authoritative, can be questioned. That he may support Azali claims because of political bias and not because of historical evidence. Anyway arguing this point is straying away from the issues.

When I supplied that verse from the Quran I was not representing any interpretation. You said that "the word of Allah will be the last" and I was just fufilling that by posting the words of Allah. It was from Yusuf-Ali translation: Sura 13 Ra'd or Thunder verse 11.
No problem with the cap locks, no offense taken.

Perhaps we could end this long thread with a quote from the Quran.
(this isnt implying that someone "won the debate")

imranshaykh · 11-29-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Promethium

But the Báb did not stop even with the claim of Mihdíhood. He adopted the sacred title of "Nuqtiyiula" or "Primal Point." This was a title applied to Muhammad Himself by His followers. Even the Imáms were secondary in importance to the "Point," from Whom they derived their inspiration and authority. In assuming this title, the Báb claimed to rank, like Muhammad, in the series of great Founders of Religion,
-Baha'u'llah and the New Era by J.E. Esslemont page 16

I am the Primal Point...
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 12

In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muhammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the ‘Point of the Bayán’; the day of Him Whom God shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom God shall make manifest....
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 126

^^ In the previous passage the Bab briefly talks about the Dispensations/Day of various Prophets of God. He talks about the "day of the 'Point of the Bayan'"
Consider the next passage.

For in the forthcoming Revelation it is He Who is the Remembrance of God, whereas the devotions which thou art offering at present have been prescribed by the Point of the Bayán...
-Selections from the Writings of the Bab page 94

The Bab considers Himself a Prophet.

- EVEN BAHAULLAH DID NOT CLAIM THAT BAB WAS A PROPHET.

Magnify Thou, O Lord my God, Him Who is the Primal Point, the Divine Mystery, the Unseen Essence, the Dayspring of Divinity, and the Manifestation of Thy Lordship...
-Baha'u'llah, excerpt taken from a Bahai Fasting prayer

Baha'u'llah considered the Bab a Prophet.

Read the Quran where the claim of prophethood of the prophet is made clearly and not in similes and metaphors. I have a serious issue with SWB - it is as I have mentioned very carefully "selected" and will be difficult to accept till the original works are seen. I am an expert in Arabic and Persian and expect to read the "words of God" in the language they were revealed so that the both letter and spirit of the revelation can be understood. Without repeating myself, some of my previous posts will highlight this aspect.

As regards the Primal point issue, after 124,000 prophets and atleast 11 Imams, all of whom were far more illustrious than the Bab, why would Allah introduce this concept? We dont even get a whiff of this concept in Quran and traditions.

This discussion is well, a discussion, not a wrestling ring. So no intentions of winning or otherwise.

"I swear by Time, that Man is in loss. Except those who believe, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy."

Regards
Imran

Popeyesays · 11-29-2006, 03:16 PM

Actually, Imran you are quite wrong about Baha`u'llah acknowledging the Bab as a "Manifestation of God" co-equal with Himself and all the other Manifestations including Muhammad.

"I yield Thee such thanks as can enable the Heavenly Dove to warble forth, upon the branches of the Lote-Tree of Immortality, her song: "Verily, Thou art God. No God is there besides Thee. From eternity Thou hast been exalted above the praise of aught else but Thee, and been high above the description of any one except Thyself." I yield Thee such thanks as can cause the Nightingale of Glory to pour forth its melody in the highest heaven: "Ali (the Bab), in truth, is Thy servant, Whom Thou hast singled out from among Thy Messengers and Thy chosen Ones, and made Him to be the Manifestation of Thyself in all that pertaineth unto Thee, and that concerneth the revelation of Thine attributes and the evidences of Thy names." I yield Thee such thanks as can stir up all things to extol Thee, and to glorify Thine Essence, and can unloose the tongues of all beings to magnify the sovereignty of Thy beauty. I yield Thee such thanks as can fill the heavens and the earth with the signs of Thy transcendent Essence, and assist all created things to enter the Tabernacle of Thy nearness and Thy presence. I yield Thee such thanks as can make every created thing to be a book that shall speak of Thee, and a scroll that shall unfold Thy praise. I yield Thee such thanks as can establish the Manifestations of Thy sovereignty upon the throne of Thy governance, and set up the Exponents of Thy glory upon the seat of Thy Divinity.
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 329)

As to your objection that one can only judge the words of the Prophets in Arabic? Pish-Posh.

Regards,
Scott

arthra · 11-29-2006, 05:59 PM

Just one point that I think is important to mention is that the Writings of the Bab are regarded by us Baha'is as being sacred revealed scripture. So it is with great reverence that we regard them and they are not wholly the province of scholars or specualtors nor for those who seek to attack the Bab...note the statement above:

"...after 124,000 prophets and atleast 11 Imams, all of whom were far more illustrious than the Bab.."

This statement reveals his true attitude.

There is also no conspiracy to prevent people from access to the Bayan by Baha'is as is alleged here by Imran..this is another example of innuendo. Baha'is also have had available to them the Persian Bayan translated into French by ALM Nicolas since 1914:

The Persian and Arabic Bayans have been translated into French by A.L.M. Nicolas: Le Beeyan Persan., Paris: Librairie Paul Geuthner, 1911-1914; Le Beyan arabe. Le livre sacree du Babysme. Paris: Ernest Leroux, 1905.

An abstract of the Persian Bayan by E. G. Browne is published in M. Momen (ed.), Selections from the Writings of E. G. Browne, Oxford, 1987, pp. 316-406.

What is overlooked and misunderstood by many is that the Bab intended to shake up the powers of the ecclesiastical authorities of Shiah Islam which was successful. Many of His laws and ordinances were never actually intended to be enforced. Most of His followers were not even aware of them. He also subordinated Himself to Him Whom God would make manifest or as we Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah a preparation not unlike that provided by John the Baptist for His Holiness Jesus the Christ. Just as the teachings of John became subordinate to those of Christ.

- Art

I, Brian · 11-29-2006, 07:38 PM

And with that - thread closed.

Imranshayk, I now recall that I'd already warned you about your approach to CR some time ago.

While I can appreciate there will be religious disagreements and contentions, you've shown yourself to have no other motive at CR other than to "prove" the Baha'i faith wrong.

This isn't acceptable regarding any faith here.

If that's all you have to "contribute", then the "gift" is declined and you will be waved along your way.