what convinced you your faith is the truth?

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Imran here was your reply to me back in October 17, 2005

"Hello Art,

Your inference that I do not have a positive inclination towards the Bahai Faith is correct."

Your statement above from August 8, 2006:

"I am not, I repeat, am not antagonistic to the Bahai Faith."

Are you using a form of dissimulation here?

And are you not attempting to "hi-jack" this thread to propound your Shiah view?

- Art

Ofcourse, just because I do not have a positive inclination towards something does not mean that I am antagonistic towards it. It means that I will look and re-look into elements more closely than others. It means that I will not accept anything which is liberally quoted and accepted by convention. It also means that I am willing to change my view assuming that I am offered rationales which are reasonable and fair.

If I were antagonistic, I would not even bother to offer any references for what I quote. I would just say what I wanted to say. In my threads, I do not do that. I ask questions which are logical and reasonable. Needless to say this can be misinterpreted as being antagonistic. But we must recognise that we are dealing with the domain of Faith - we dnot wish to convert each other - that is not the intention, but we must have a rationale for our belief. After all, we only live this life once..!

As regards dissimulation, I re-entered the forum as Imran Shaykh. I could have easily used another identity.

Please do not label my questioning as wanting to hijack this forum or thread. My questioning comes from years of study of Bahai texts. If I find something which triggers question, I have no persons to turn to other than Bahais. I find this an active forum with intellectual Bahais. Hence I post my questions here.

Regards
Imran

[paul]

i went on one bahai website, and it said that bahai's were normal people who played video games and went to the movies.

but 99% of movies promote every kind of sin, so i would say of video games, and would think there was far more spiritual things to be done, than these which i would label worldy.

if the bahai faith is the most recent revelation correcting errors that have crept in, and enouraging us in and revealing to us the true spiritual walk.

what i would like to know of, is the proof of this.
how are bahai's more spiritual in their lives?

give me some proof, for aren't we known by our fruits.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by paul

i went on one bahai website, and it said that bahai's were normal people who played video games and went to the movies.

but 99% of movies promote every kind of sin, so i would say of video games, and would think there was far more spiritual things to be done, than these which i would label worldy.

if the bahai faith is the most recent revelation correcting errors that have crept in, and enouraging us in and revealing to us the true spiritual walk.

what i would like to know of, is the proof of this.
how are bahai's more spiritual in their lives?

give me some proof, for aren't we known by our fruits.

Well thanks Paul for your post!

I suppose from your perspective playing video games and watching movies "promote" sin. I guess I can reach out and try to understand your perspective. We Baha'is are not restricted from viewing movies or television or playing video games. I'm not that good at video games myself but my son is pretty good. I watch television usually the History Channel, BBC and Science channels and my wife likes romance and mysteries, and we go to see movies like the CS Lewis film Narnia, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings epic and I even saw Gibson's Passion with my son. Anyway I think people can see very inspiring films and some that are not so inspiring. Movies are Art and only a media in my view and like literature can be used to inspire as well.


But what are Baha'is doing? We are interested in building communities that appreciate diversity and involve cooperating with Christians, Muslims and Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists...even athiests if need be, focusing on issues that concern us. Yesterday I attended an inter-faith meeting in a neighboring city riddled with crime and gang warfare to support that city's Mayor and religious leaders whoa re trying to uplift their community.

I'm also President for the second term of my city's Inter-faith Council (composed of Christians, Jews and Muslims) and we have supported relief for Afgan mothers and children; Trying to gain acceptance and services for parolees; holding Inter-faith Prayer Breakfasts for the Mayor and City.

Internationally Baha'is are involved in what we call Social Development projects from Mongolia to Zimbabwe to support services and educational institutions for women and children. There are a number of Baha'i Schools in India, Africa and Latin America...

Baha'is have long supported a representative world government and imternational court of arbitration (some of which has already been achieved); a reduction of the extremes of wealth and poverty; profit sharing schemes for employees; eliminating racial and religious prejudices. Baha'is generally support a one world perspective rather than a nationalistic one.

Baha'is recite prayers daily and our communities have no professional clergy. Our administration is elective from the membership.

Baha'is are non-partisan. We cannot belong to partisan political organizations so Baha'is register non-partisan in elections. Baha'is are encouraged to register as non-combatants when drafted for military service...

So these are some of the things that we do... or are characteristic i would say of Baha'is. Through it all Baha'is are normal people.

- Art

.

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by paul

i went on one bahai website, and it said that bahai's were normal people who played video games and went to the movies.

but 99% of movies promote every kind of sin, so i would say of video games, and would think there was far more spiritual things to be done, than these which i would label worldy.

if the bahai faith is the most recent revelation correcting errors that have crept in, and enouraging us in and revealing to us the true spiritual walk.

what i would like to know of, is the proof of this.
how are bahai's more spiritual in their lives?

give me some proof, for aren't we known by our fruits.

Hi Paul,

yes, 99% of movies promote sin etc. but that still leaves 1%. those are the ones i like to watch personally. I prefer inspirational movies myself. I don't play video games.

I think one of the major things i've noticed personally since i've been a Baha'i, is that all of my thoughts and actions are aligning themselves with the Baha'i principles. It's a tranformative process on a personal level. But it's a lifelong process. I will never be perfect, i stumble and fall occasionally, but i keep striving, and always will.

Yes, Baha'i's are just regular people, we like to have fun just as much as anyone. This life is a gift, to be enjoyed.

The fruits of our lives are in the way we live our lives. Striving to uphold the principles of our Faith in our daily lives. Recognizing the oneness of the human family and treating all people with love and respect. Service to others is a high priority. Getting involved with organizations with similar interests. i.e. Habitat for Humanity etc. What i would consider another fruit is our complete non-involvement in partisanship.

Though it may not be visible on the surface, the fruits of our lives are vast, and different for each one of us.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by arthra

... Movies are Art and only a media in my view and like literature can be used to inspire as well.

Indeed there are several compilations on music and the arts - (1) (2) (3)

for example we have

"We have permitted you to listen to music and singing. Beware lest such listening cause you to transgress the bounds of decency and dignity. Rejoice in the joy of My Most Great Name through which the hearts are enchanted and the minds of the well-favoured are attracted.

We have made music a ladder by which souls may ascend to the realm on high. Change it not into wings for self and passion. I seek refuge in God that you be not of the ignorant."

Originally Posted by arthra

....So these are some of the things that we do... or are characteristic i would say of Baha'is. Through it all Baha'is are normal people.

True indeed. It is by our choices as part of the body of humanity that can destinguish us - not any inherent quality, of we truely must all have. And given choice there will always be a spread of results. But the standards called for, and studied and attempted, are arrayed in a number of places.

As part of a much longer review of the topic the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith outlined many of the salient benchmarks and issues of one's conduct - here are a few lines (speaking specifically the American beleivers, but in universal tones):

"A rectitude of conduct, an abiding sense of undeviating justice, unobscured by the demoralizing influences which a corruption-ridden political life so strikingly manifests; a chaste, pure, and holy life, unsullied and unclouded by the indecencies, the vices, the false standards, which an inherently deficient moral code tolerates, perpetuates, and fosters; a fraternity freed from that cancerous growth of racial prejudice, which is eating into the vitals of an already debilitated society--these are the ideals which the American believers must, from now on, individually and through concerted action, strive to promote, in both their private and public lives, ideals which are the chief propelling forces that can most effectively accelerate the march of their institutions, plans, and enterprises, that can guard the honor and integrity of their Faith, and subdue any obstacles that may confront it in the future.

This rectitude of conduct, with its implications of justice, equity, truthfulness, honesty, fair-mindedness, reliability, and trustworthiness, must distinguish every phase of the life of the Bahá'í community."

What Paul might be picking up on is a sense that Baha'is aren't extremists - that in some sense "we're just folk". It's a tough destinction - on the one hand we have high ideals and on the other we aren't fanatics. We find such statements as

"He...proclaims religion to be "a radiant light and an impregnable stronghold for the protection and welfare of the peoples of the world" ... commands that its principles be taught to children in the schools of the world, in a manner that would not be productive of either prejudice or fanaticism..."

and

"He, furthermore, inculcates the principle of "moderation in all things"; declares that whatsoever, be it "Liberty, civilization and the like," "passeth beyond the limits of moderation" must "exercise a pernicious influence upon men"..."

[paul]

o.k., back to Jesus and other prophets.

Jesus had no Father only God right?

He didn't come from any man, but was placed in the womb of Mary.

John who may be perceived as a prophet testified that Christ was greater of whose straps of his sandals he was not worthy to touch.

Moses is perceived as a prohet isn't he?

but Moses is not considered completely perfect is he?

is Mohammed, John the Baptist, the bahai prophets, considered perfect, as if they didn't have to say Lord have mercy on me a sinner?

Are all the prophets considered without sin, or even certian ones?

What about Christ, how is He perceived, as of being the son of God, as of being without sin, and can any other man, be said to be without sin, even prophets?

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by paul

o.k., back to Jesus and other prophets.

OK. :-) Always a good choice.

Originally Posted by paul

Jesus had no Father only God right?

Right.

Originally Posted by paul

He didn't come from any man, but was placed in the womb of Mary.

True.

Originally Posted by paul

John who may be perceived as a prophet testified that Christ was greater of whose straps of his sandals he was not worthy to touch.

A paraphrase of the Bible. More or less. John and Jesus are not equivolent.

Originally Posted by paul

Moses is perceived as a prohet isn't he?

It depends on the term and which religion is referencing him. In my own words and understanding by a Baha'i definition of Prophet, yes He is specifically named as a Prophet, or Manifestation of God - come with a Book, a Revelation, commissioned by God to do His bidding, and whose essence was united with Him, beyond independently in relationship with God.

Originally Posted by paul

but Moses is not considered completely perfect is he?

Perfect... perfect. What is perfect? Is it possible for something to be perfect in God's estimation and not be equal to himself? How about perfect in the estimation of God and not to human eyes? And if as it seems necessarily yes to questions such as these then yes Moses was in his essence perfect and in his obedience within the confines of how he was in turn obeyed and not and made a penance for those limits... yes perfect. If he wasn't then God's revelation must have been lacking for that time and place. So whatever was lacking was just our level of development and further perfections would been lost on us.

Originally Posted by paul

is Mohammed, John the Baptist, the bahai prophets, considered perfect, as if they didn't have to say Lord have mercy on me a sinner?

No one is equal to God. All are dependent on His Essence. Surely no one is good save Him? Yet He raises up Whom He Will.

Originally Posted by paul

Are all the prophets considered without sin, or even certian ones?

Originally Posted by paul

What about Christ, how is He perceived, as of being the son of God, as of being without sin, and can any other man, be said to be without sin, even prophets?

Books of compilations have been written of Jesus. He cannot be estimated within a Baha'i context alone in any one post. He is glorified by Baha'u'llah as we believe Jesus glorfied Him. In relation to eachother one is in the station of Son and one is in the station of Father, as when the owner comes to the vineyard.

[arthra]

Paul wrote:

Moses is perceived as a prohet isn't he?

but Moses is not considered completely perfect is he?

is Mohammed, John the Baptist, the bahai prophets, considered perfect, as if they didn't have to say Lord have mercy on me a sinner?

Are all the prophets considered without sin, or even certian ones?

What about Christ, how is He perceived, as of being the son of God, as of being without sin, and can any other man, be said to be without sin, even prophets?

My comment:

Paul:

I think this goes back to the Baha'i view of the Manifestation of God a station which we feel is shared by Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The Manifestation is a Perfect Reflection of the attributes of God to mankind so They are Inter-mediary between God and mankind or creation.

The Christian belief that Jesus is literally Son of God is not shared by us Baha'is and we believe in the virgin birth of Jesus.

We accept the "title" of Jesus was son of God and son of Man, a title which He Himself use many times.

Baha'is do not share the Christian belief in "original sin" and I think this may also be confusing to you as we are considering the concept of a Manifestation of God.

Also Paul it might be helpful for you to review this essay:

http://bahai-library.com/?file=stock...bahai_writings

- Art

[Postmaster]

The Christian belief that Jesus is literally Son of God is not shared by us Baha'is and we believe in the virgin birth of Jesus.

Yeah but did all prophets suffer such torture as Christ? Also did other prophets know they were divine from birth? Angels visited his parents from birth.

Also did other prophets have the same relationship to God as Christ did? Did they perform such miracles? Did they share the same love as Christ?

Some Hebrew prophesises claimed the messiah was already existing in heaven before he would be revealed on earth. Where is Christ's grave? and where is Baha'u'llah's?

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Yeah but did all prophets suffer such torture as Christ? Also did other prophets know they were divine from birth? Angels visited his parents from birth.

Also did other prophets have the same relationship to God as Christ did? Did they perform such miracles? Did they share the same love as Christ?

Some Hebrew prophesises claimed the messiah was already existing in heaven before he would be revealed on earth. Where is Christ's grave? and where is Baha'u'llah's?

Hello my good friend!

I can give you only my understanding, a Baha'i view.

The relationship of the Manifestations to God is the same for each..as they are Perfect Mirrors that relfect God's attributes, so in our view all the Manifestations of God have the same relationship to God. They are like the teachers in a school who all possess credentials and teaching certificates. The difference and distinctions between them are their assignments...so one teaches first grade and one teaches sixth grade.. They are equally qualified but given different assignments.

All the Manifestations of God we believe were from Their conception Perfect Reflections of God so yes They had the innate knowledge of Who They were and did not need to acquire it. This is born out through legends about the miraculous births of Krishna, Buddha and Christ to convey that these Manifestations of God had innate knowledge.

Did the Manifestations of God suffer as Christ did? I believe many did. Zoroaster and some of His followers were attacked by priests and burned to death in their Temple. The Bab was tried by a "kangaroo" court, beaten and executed. Baha'u'llah endured four months under heavy galling weight of chains that left impressions on His body for life and attempts were made to poison Him and assassinate Him.

All of Them laid down Their lives at some point for others.

Were there miracles?... Yes, you can study all the miracles of the Manifestations of God and many are legendary but and this is very important to note, we Baha'is do not believe that miracles in and of them selves should be relied upon today as they were say in the time of Jesus..Why? Because miracles are viewed today as magic tricks and wonders and they are only most signifcant and verifiable to the people who experience them.

My own personal view:

After the crucifixion of Jesus His body was entrusted according to scripture to Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus who were secret disciples.. Apparently they were not even known to the Apostles themselves... When the disciples came to the grave they didn't find the body. After this the Cause of Christ was reborn in their hearts. I believe that Joseph and Nicodemus likely hid the bodily remains so that enemies would not misuse and insult the body later.

This occurred with the remains of the Bab that His disciples hid them for forty years.

The earthly remains of Baha'u'llah are in Bahji.

In friendship!

- Art

[Postmaster]

Because miracles are viewed today as magic tricks and wonders and they are only most signifcant and verifiable to the people who experience them.

See to me I have a totally different psychology towards miracles. In the catholic and orthodoxy Christian faith there is a strong acceptance towards miracles and cases of saints being able to cure people of illnesses like cancers even through dreams. Would you call that a magic trick? Something fascinating I discovered though, such miracles were being done by ancient Greek Gods as recorded and ancient Greeks believed there statues cried. As time past this mystical phenomenon still remains in European culture and religion.

Me and my family have experienced a weeping icon of the virgin Mary the same Icon on afew occasions, an oil substance running from the eyes and flooding the window seal, I have said this afew times on this forum. And just incase anyone assumes i'm a looney, im not

[arthra]

Hello Postmaster!

I agree there are still a lot of people who accept these kinds of miracles and for them it is part of their faith...

But I'm responded to you as a Baha'i on this and in our faith these miracles are not considered as decisive proofs:

"I do not wish to mention the miracles of Bahá’u’lláh, for it may perhaps be said that these are traditions, liable both to truth and to error, like the accounts of the miracles of Christ in the Gospel, which come to us from the apostles, and not from anyone else, and are denied by the Jews.

Though if I wish to mention the supernatural acts of Bahá’u’lláh, they are numerous;

they are acknowledged in the Orient, and even by some non-Bahá’ís.

But these narratives are not decisive proofs and evidences to all; the hearer might perhaps say that this account may not be in accordance with what occurred, for it is known that other sects recount miracles performed by their founders.

For instance, the followers of Brahmanism relate miracles. From what evidence may we know that those are false and that these are true? If these are fables, the others also are fables; if these are generally accepted, so also the others are generally accepted. Consequently, these accounts are not satisfactory proofs. Yes, miracles are proofs for the eyewitness only, and even he may regard them not as a miracle but as an enchantment. Extraordinary feats have also been related of some conjurors.

Briefly, my meaning is that many wonderful things were done by Bahá’u’lláh, but we do not recount them, as they do not constitute proofs and evidences for all the peoples of the earth, and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them: they may think that they are merely enchantments."

- Abdul-Baha

[Postmaster]

Why do miracles still occur in the Christian faith? When the Baha'i faith is the latest message of God?

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Why do miracles still occur in the Christian faith? When the Baha'i faith is the latest message of God?

No one said they don't occur in the Baha'i Faith...or in your own beliefs...

It's just that we don't consider them a great proof as some still do because of the reasons already listsed above:

Miracles are most relevant to the people who experience them, beyond that they are just hear-say.

Miracles transcend the everyday and the perceived regular rules of nature.

I think they can happen every day and are beyond most peoples perception... but we no longer push them forward as proofs to people anymore...

- Art

[arthra]

Postmaster:

There's also an article about Miracles in the Baha'i Faith that you might enjoy reading:

http://bahai-library.com/books/miracles/bahai.html

Here are some more references on the subject:

When Christ healed people the Pharisees said He was "driving out devils only through Beelzebub the prince of devils". See Matthew 12:24

The Qur'an describes the deniers and non-believers who insisted upon a demonstration of miracles on the part of the Prophet, as in its depiction of those who denied Moses and called Him a "magician" or "sorcerer".

Regarding Him, the Qur'an states:

And when our signs were wrought in their very sight, they said, "This is plain magic."

Surih XXVII, "The Ant", v. 13

And

Yet when the truth came to them from our very presence, they said, "Unless the like powers be given to him that were given to Moses.... " But did they not disbelieve in what of old was given to Moses? They said, "Two works of sorcery have helped each other;" and they said, "We disbelieve them both. "

- Surih XXVIII, "The Story", v. 48

Thomas Breakwell a well known Baha'i recorded this talk with Abdul-Baha about miracles:

"The miracles which appeared through the Manifestation the Master did not like to mention, because they will not be proof to others. They were only a demonstration for those who witnessed them. If the Master mentions all of these, the people will say that the idol worshippers attributed many wonderful things to their idols. The hearer will say this is right and this is wrong. While the miracles which actually appeared in the time of the Manifestation are greater than all, the Master did not wish to mention them, for the Manifestation said that the miracles would be like a veil over the people, for, in every time, the proofs (of this Word) will be so evident and clear that the people can understand them."

In friendship,

- Art