what convinced you your faith is the truth?

[arthra]

Imran,

I think you continue to stray from the main topic here. You are basically using this thread to criticize the Baha'i Faith and your sources are biased.

Your sources on "Baha'i awareness" are clearly an attack our Faith and are not welcome on this Baha'i Board.

- Art

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Nobody is criticising the Bahai Faith - this is a very unfair comment. Is this board a one way street with no objectivity or that one is only expected to listen to whatever other members are saying without raising any questions?

Go through my posts - I have been a student of the Faith for more than 10 years and have studied the Faith. Who should I get my questions clarified from? I came here, and I said it right upfront, not to convert Bahais into Muslims nor to get myself or other Muslims converted to Bahaism. I came here to learn.

Yet, I see that Bahais are allowed to post links to whatever they wish. Yet, when I put a link to my web site, it was called "antagonistic". Very unfair.

You can do whatever you want. You are the administrator after all. Yet, I repeat, I have asked questions in a very civilised manner and not in a way that would hurt the sensibilities of any person, leave alone the Bahais.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

It's not unfair - there's an Islam board where Muslims are fine to post links about Islam and answer questions on Islam.

Point is - you came to the Baha'i board carrying an anti-Baha'i link, and your questions are primarily about deconstructing the Baha'i faith. You say you're here to learn but you come across entirely as someone who feels they can see great big holes in the Baha'i faith, and are interesting in opening them up to convince the Baha'i members here the error of their words.

You say you're here only to ask interested questions, but your intentions and motives are easily read as otherwise.

Anyway, the point is made.

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Imran,
I think you continue to stray from the main topic here. You are basically using this thread to criticize the Baha'i Faith and your sources are biased. Your sources on "Baha'i awareness" are clearly an attack our Faith and are not welcome on this Baha'i Board.
- Art

Dear Art:

Why is simple questioning considered as an attack on the Faith? Why are my sources considered biased? Especially when they are books of the Bahai Faith. I would understand if I brought the opinions of Muslim scholars or from Islamic sources. I have not done that.

What I have been doing is questioning statements made by Bahai adherents on the forum with an emphasis on references. I have no issue acknowledging any of the statements if they were backed by at least one reference.

For example,

I was informed, some of the books of the Bab were superceeded and some not. I asked which ones and is there some statement of Bahaullah to that effect. Is that a logical and rational question?

I was informed that Bab was the return of the prophecies of the Mahdi. I asked which ones. Is that a logical and rational question?

I was informed that the Quran prophecised about the coming of Bahaullah. I asked which verses of Quran foretold that event. I got some replies to which my question was whether there were any traditions to the effect from the Holy Prophet or the Imams which corroborated the general belief of the Bahais. Now is that a logical and rational question?

To each of the above, I received no replies, only a post from Bahais saying that my questions construe an "attack" on the Faith. What I have been doing is only putting a question further to the statements so that one can satisfy oneself. Nothing more, nothing less. At no point of time, have I even challenged the belief and said that the Faith was wrong. Read my posts. I have only added a layer of one more question to each statement. Surely, that cannot be construed as an attack for there is no intention to do so.

Secondly, as regards the books, I first questioned whether the Bahais accept the 4 books of the Bab which I listed down. Bruce (I think) said yes. I asked for the most current view of the Bahais on these books. And then outlined what I have read in the books. Some person should clarify what I read and outlined. If we all percieve any questioning to be an attack, how will we ever learn? And why should my sources be considered biased when these are Bahai books, not books from Islam? Is that not an unfair comment and one that is prejudiced?

Dont take my web site to be a sign of my prejudice. I am not prejudiced. I have only asked questions, albeit difficult ones on the web site with the disclaimer that if my references are proved wrong, I will happily change the content on my web site. But unfortunately no person challenges the references, they challenge the thought itself.

Is it my fault that I took the trouble of reading more than the average Bahais? That I took the effort of pulling out books which were unknown and read and re-read it completely. If any person did that in Islam or any other forum, he would be considered an expert. But I do not claim to be an expert and fashion my own views. I go and humbly ask the Bahais about their views. Now when I have questions, it is considered as an attack?

Regards
Imran

[BruceDLimber]

Imran, hi!

If you'd really like a true understanding of the Baha'i position and where we're coming from (as you say you do), then I urge you to go to the www.reference.bahai.org website and read The Book of Certitude (aka Kitab-i-Iqan) by Baha'u'llah there!

(Or if you prefer, www.bahaistudy.org has this same work available as a talking book that you can listen to.)

I guarantee itwill give you the best possible understanding of our theology and belief!

Peace,

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Imran, hi!

If you'd really like a true understanding of the Baha'i position and where we're coming from (as you say you do), then I urge you to go to the www.reference.bahai.org website and read The Book of Certitude (aka Kitab-i-Iqan) by Baha'u'llah there!

(Or if you prefer, www.bahaistudy.org has this same work available as a talking book that you can listen to.)

I guarantee itwill give you the best possible understanding of our theology and belief!

Peace,

Bruce

hi Bruce:

Thanks for one of the most welcoming response that I have had in this forum for a long time! Sure, I will re-read (emphasise, re-read) the Iqan!

I took the official Bahai web site as the standard of understanding the Bahai Faith. I found many things which are not corroborated anywhere, not even in Bahai books. Hence I came here to learn!

May I be permitted to ask one question? If you say yes, I will ask. If no, then skip.

Regards
Imran

[BruceDLimber]

Questions are always welcome!

I don't always promise an answer, though, as I may well not be able to answer it.... :-)

Regards,

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Questions are always welcome!
I don't always promise an answer, though, as I may well not be able to answer it.... :-)
Regards,
Bruce

What is the position of the Bab in the Bahai Faith:
1. Is he an independent prophet?
2. Or is the the promised Mahdi of Islam?

Regards
Imran

[arthra]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

What is the position of the Bab in the Bahai Faith:
1. Is he an independent prophet?
2. Or is the the promised Mahdi of Islam?

Regards
Imran

From our point of view He was both a Manifestation of God and revealed Scriptures as well as fulfilling the prophecy of Mahdi and Qaim.

Here is also a reference from the Iqan:

It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a
twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions,
is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing
light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may
advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and
the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and
concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be
made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Sádiq, son of
Muhammad, spoken: "God verily will test them and sift them." This is the divine
standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants.
None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are
assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached
from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally
understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded:
"Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the
people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which
remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and
seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

-- Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 255

And from the Bab Himself:

PONDER likewise the Dispensation of the Apostle of God which lasted twelve
hundred and seventy years till the dawn of the manifestation of the
Bayan.

He directed everyone to await the advent of the Promised Qa'im. All
deeds which in the Islamic Dispensation began with Muhammad should find
their consummation through the appearance of the Qa'im.

God hath made Him
manifest invested with the proof wherewith the Apostle of God was invested,
so that none of the believers in the Qur'an might entertain doubts about
the validity of His Cause, for it is set down in the Qur'an that none but
God is capable of revealing verses. During the period of 1270 years no one
among the followers of the Qur'an ever witnessed a person appearing with
conclusive proofs.

Now the Ever-Living Lord hath made manifest and invested
with supreme testimony this long-awaited Promised One from a place no one
could imagine and from a person whose knowledge was deemed of no account.

--The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 118



- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

I agree with Art's reply.

Best, :-)

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

From our point of view He was both a Manifestation of God and revealed Scriptures as well as fulfilling the prophecy of Mahdi and Qaim.

Here is also a reference from the Iqan:

It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a
twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions,
is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing
light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may
advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and
the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and
concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be
made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Sádiq, son of
Muhammad, spoken: "God verily will test them and sift them." This is the divine
standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants.
None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are
assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached
from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally
understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded:
"Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the
people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which
remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and
seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

-- Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 255

And from the Bab Himself:

PONDER likewise the Dispensation of the Apostle of God which lasted twelve
hundred and seventy years till the dawn of the manifestation of the
Bayan.

He directed everyone to await the advent of the Promised Qa'im. All
deeds which in the Islamic Dispensation began with Muhammad should find
their consummation through the appearance of the Qa'im.

God hath made Him
manifest invested with the proof wherewith the Apostle of God was invested,
so that none of the believers in the Qur'an might entertain doubts about
the validity of His Cause, for it is set down in the Qur'an that none but
God is capable of revealing verses. During the period of 1270 years no one
among the followers of the Qur'an ever witnessed a person appearing with
conclusive proofs.

Now the Ever-Living Lord hath made manifest and invested
with supreme testimony this long-awaited Promised One from a place no one
could imagine and from a person whose knowledge was deemed of no account.

--The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 118

- Art

Wonderful!

Thanks for your reply. I have couple of questions:

1. Is the tradition reported from Imam Sadiq (as) in Iqan the only tradition which is generally accepted by the Bahais about the Mahdi or are there some other prophecies as well? If yes, then please could you outline these...

2. The Bab, assuming he was the Mahdi and the Qaem, opened the words of Allah, then would the Tafseer (exegesis, explanation) written by the Bab about the chapter of Kauthar classify as "unsealing of the books, the explanation of 70 meanings of the Quran...."

3. The quotation of the Bab as given in "Selections..." Is it possible to get the reference of the original writing from which this quotation is taken, whether Bayan or Qayyamul Asma etc...

Many thanks.

Regards
Imran

[arthra]

My dear Imran your questions are answered below but I would suggest to you that they again stray from the actual topic here.

imranshaykh:

1. Is the tradition reported from Imam Sadiq (as) in Iqan the only tradition which is generally accepted by the Bahais about the Mahdi or are there some other prophecies as well? If yes, then please could you outline these...

My reply:

No it is not the only tradition known to Baha'is...as in the following:

"Furthermore, in the Arba'in which is a compilation of Shi'ah Tradition it is recorded:

"Out of Bani-Hashim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. Most of His enemies will be the divines [i.e. religious leaders]. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.

(We see the above as having been fulfilled by the reaction of many of the Ullama to the ministry of the Bab over a hundred and fifty years ago and continuing down to this day.)

"Imam Sadiq is also recorded to have said:

"There shall appear a Youth from Bani-Hashim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear it about Him, hasten unto Him."

(The Bab was a Siyyid Who also brought a new Revelation as noted above)


2. The Bab, assuming he was the Mahdi and the Qaem, opened the words of Allah, then would the Tafseer (exegesis, explanation) written by the Bab about the chapter of Kauthar classify as "unsealing of the books, the explanation of 70 meanings of the Quran...."

My reply:

Baha'u'llah makes reference above: Thus it is recorded:
"Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the
people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which
remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and
seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

Authoritative "Tafsir" as understood by you Imran is not something we engage in as you probably understand it as only certain Central Figures (like Abdul-Baha or Shoghi Effendi) have provided it so we may have our own opinions but they are not authoritative for other Baha'i, so we do not have a class of Ullama as in Islam.

3. The quotation of the Bab as given in "Selections..." Is it possible to get the reference of the original writing from which this quotation is taken, whether Bayan or Qayyamul Asma etc...

My reply it is an excerpt from the Dala'il-i-Sab'ih and has noted can be found on p. 119 The Selections from the Writings of the Bab published in 1976 iis still in print.

- Art

[arthra]

Just a note from the above...on the question

(Would) the Tafseer (exegesis, explanation) written by the Bab about the chapter of Kauthar classify as "unsealing of the books, the explanation of 70 meanings of the Quran...."

My comment:

The Commentary on the Surih of Kawthar was we believe a revealed Writing of the Bab produced in a miraculous way for one who was a later called Vahid..a foremost follower of the Bab.

Many of the Bab's works however were not well preserved as there was much persecution and destruction of His works.. some were interpolated by enemies so without an authorized text we cannot really comment on it.

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Imran, hi!

The unsealing of the books was accomplished by Baha'u'llah through His writing of The Book of Certitude (aka Kitab-i-Iqan), the book I've been recommending to you!

Peace,

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

My dear Imran your questions are answered below but I would suggest to you that they again stray from the actual topic here.

Dear Art:

I am very much within the framework of the question which is related to the Bab, the Mahdi of the Bahais.

Originally Posted by arthra

imranshaykh:
1. Is the tradition reported from Imam Sadiq (as) in Iqan the only tradition which is generally accepted by the Bahais about the Mahdi or are there some other prophecies as well? If yes, then please could you outline these...

My reply:

No it is not the only tradition known to Baha'is...as in the following:

"Furthermore, in the Arba'in which is a compilation of Shi'ah Tradition it is recorded:

"Out of Bani-Hashim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. Most of His enemies will be the divines [i.e. religious leaders]. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.

(We see the above as having been fulfilled by the reaction of many of the Ullama to the ministry of the Bab over a hundred and fifty years ago and continuing down to this day.)

"Imam Sadiq is also recorded to have said:

"There shall appear a Youth from Bani-Hashim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear it about Him, hasten unto Him."

(The Bab was a Siyyid Who also brought a new Revelation as noted above)

These traditions do not exist in the book. So if you can share the page numbers and the author of the book, I can know that I am referring to the correct book and the correct author.

Originally Posted by arthra

2. The Bab, assuming he was the Mahdi and the Qaem, opened the words of Allah, then would the Tafseer (exegesis, explanation) written by the Bab about the chapter of Kauthar classify as "unsealing of the books, the explanation of 70 meanings of the Quran...."

My reply:

Baha'u'llah makes reference above: Thus it is recorded:
"Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the
people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which
remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and
seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."

Authoritative "Tafsir" as understood by you Imran is not something we engage in as you probably understand it as only certain Central Figures (like Abdul-Baha or Shoghi Effendi) have provided it so we may have our own opinions but they are not authoritative for other Baha'i, so we do not have a class of Ullama as in Islam.

Tafseer means explanation / exegesis. It is an allusion to getting the hidden / apparent meaning of the verses by an authority. The book of the Bab is called Tafseere' Surah Kauthar - The explanation / exegesis of the Chapter of Kauthar by the Bab. This tafseer is not by any Islamic Ulema.

Originally Posted by arthra

3. The quotation of the Bab as given in "Selections..." Is it possible to get the reference of the original writing from which this quotation is taken, whether Bayan or Qayyamul Asma etc...

My reply it is an excerpt from the Dala'il-i-Sab'ih and has noted can be found on p. 119 The Selections from the Writings of the Bab published in 1976 iis still in print.
- Art

May I request your attention to page 47 of Dala'il-i-Sabih in which the Bab says that the 12th Imam is Mohammed Ibnil Hasan testified in the Tablet of Fatemah. How does one reconcile this with the Bahai concept that the Bab was the 12th Imam when the Bab himself says that he is not the 12th Imam.

Regards
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Just a note from the above...on the question

(Would) the Tafseer (exegesis, explanation) written by the Bab about the chapter of Kauthar classify as "unsealing of the books, the explanation of 70 meanings of the Quran...."

My comment:

The Commentary on the Surih of Kawthar was we believe a revealed Writing of the Bab produced in a miraculous way for one who was a later called Vahid..a foremost follower of the Bab.

Many of the Bab's works however were not well preserved as there was much persecution and destruction of His works.. some were interpolated by enemies so without an authorized text we cannot really comment on it.

- Art

Is it possible to get the authorised version of Tafseere' Surah Kauthar? This is critical - extremely critical for my leap of Faith. I do have a copy of the Tafseer, but since you mentioned an authorised version, maybe that will be better.

Regards
Imran