What are the Differences between the Abrahamic Faiths?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

PS Quahom

re the pureness of faith. I was staggered when I first went to Egypt how many people, inlcuding sheikhs, said that converts tend to be better Muslims and it was for this very reason. They tend to 'see' the faith in it's pure form, not as it was taught to them as a child. This is one reason my husband has asked me repeatedly not to follow any school or read their books, because he feels I will lose my 'innocence' and ability to see the pure path that way.

Perhaps that's what we should all do, hand over our scriptures to another religion and ask for an interpretation, maybe that would take us back to our pure faith (okay I know a ridiculous idea but I hope you know what I mean).

I couldn't kiddo. I'm too close. I know Islam and Christianity like the back of my hand. But observing Christians and Muslims as close as I have, has tainted my perception.

If there was a faith called oh, "Christlam", I'd probably sign up for it in a heart beat. Being the first, I'd have no bad habits to follow...

[Saltmeister]

Hi Muslimwoman,

In the last post I was talking about this theory I had about Christian and Islamic concepts about prayer and God being different. I was just trying to find some "root concept" that drives everything in Islam and Christianity and say that was the "root" of our differences in beliefs. ie. Islam and Christianity having different goals and agendas, or perspectives on reality.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Perhaps it will help me if you can explain to me what it means to you to say "in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost"? This is where we get the idea from that you place partners with G-d.

Ok . . . what it means for me. My view on "the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit" has changed over time. My present view is this. First of all, they are names and words used to represent ideas/concepts associated with God, but don't necessarily define God. The words that appear in the New Testament may appear to "hint" at some relationship between the concepts, but there is no conclusive definition of such a relationship or a definition of these three concepts. I wonder and doubt if there is a definition at all offered in the New Testament.

I am aware that "separation" implies "partners." That's what a Muslim often says in response. But yet I have not even defined them as "separate entities." The question I would ask now is, do the three names necessarily refer to three "separate entities?" What are names used for? To me, "Father" and "Holy Spirit" are both references to God. Let's suppose your father is the Prime Minister of the country. To you, he's a father. To the rest of the country, he's the Prime Minister. Same entity. Same person. Different roles. God may be seen as both "Father" and "Holy Spirit" -- a Father and a Spirit that is Holy. "Son" is more likely to be a point of contention. Quite recently, I've been thinking of "the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit" as really a list of words describing one's "experience of God." One experiences God through the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are not parts or aspects of God, but an experience and perception of God. But I guess I still have to put an "identity" on "the Son," and I could well get into hot water for this.

To me there's a prevailing notion, in the NT, of Jesus somehow being part of an experience of God, and that the NT was written because of that experience of God. Whether it was because he was a good man, healed the sick and fed the poor, helped solve people's problems, gave good advice or had deep connections in the community, I can't really say. All I can say is, there was something special about that guy that motivated people to write about him.

The common view in Christianity is that Jesus was God trapped in a man's body. That's primarily what draws comments about Christianity "assigning partners" to God or depicting God as a Being that takes forms. But a lot of people are prepared to consider other ways of conceptualising Jesus. Some have suggested that "Son" as in "Son of God" or "Son of Man" was just a title. What if that was what "Son" meant? What if Jesus was just an "Actor" playing out the function and role of God? That's not the same as God taking forms. That's God delegating His own function and role to someone else. This could be a point of similarity between Jesus and Mohammed, where Jesus and Mohammed were sent to "convey" something. God delegates His own function and role to someone else. In Islam, God was the law-giver who passed on His Law to Mohammed, who gave the Law to the people -- in turn, playing out the role of God. So in Islam Mohammed was a Messenger. What if the Jesus in Christianity was an Actor?

What if "Son" means "Delegate?" "Son of God" is a Delegate from God. "Son of Man" is a Delegate to Man. The "sons of God" -- the angels and God's people, are also delegates of God.

No definitions here. Once again, no guarantees or warranties.

[Saltmeister]

Hi Muslimwoman,

The reply was going to be too long so I cut it in two.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Perhaps this is where we differ? As a Christian I was taught that G-d is my ultimate Father and He is very loving.

I think "Father" could be seen as much more than a notion of a human father. The notion of a human father would be a rather limiting concept indeed. Actually, there are some instances in the Old Testament/Tanakh where "father" may have different meanings. When King David called King Saul his "father" he may have meant either "master" or "father-in-law." When Elijah is taken up into heaven, Elisha calls him "father." Again, I believe it means "master" in that context. The word "father" may be used to address the "leader of a cause," such as a movement, religion, founder of a nation or just a family. "Father" could also be used to mean "provider."

In this sense, "Father" in Christianity" could mean "master" as well as "provider." When I think of the word "Father," I actually think of a fountain of water rather than my Dad. Yes, that's right. I think of God, my Father, as a fountain of holiness, goodness and purity. It's the best metaphor I had in mind.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

When I pray I am actually in the presence of Allah, to worship Him and thank Him and humbly request that He shows me the right path. The only way I can describe it is that I aim for my soul to go to heaven and prostrate before the Creator. This is why we ensure absolute cleanliness, I wear my best clothes which I reserve for prayer and I humble myself in prayer.

Wow okay that is a really big difference. For us prayer is about worshipping G-d, supplication to Him not building a personal relationship with Him.

Ok, so maybe there was something heavenly about it, the distinction being a Christian's pursuit of something personal with God . . .

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

How on earth can you know G-d intimately? He's not our mate, He is the ultimate Master and Lord of everything. G-d is unknowable, He is beyond human perception and forgive me I am not trying to be rude but it seems rather disrespectful to suggest you can have a personal relationship with G-d.

I don't really understand what you mean by personal knowledge. We are mere humans and we cannot know anything of G-d. Our hearts can know that G-d exists and our hearts can glimpse a sense of Him but when you say "knowledge" it suggests an understanding and that is simply not possible.

Oh no...don't get me wrong. I was saying he's undefinable, but knowable and understandable in a "personal sense." He maybe an infinite God, but still capable of making Himself understood. We may never be able to comprehend His infinite wisdom and knowledge, but on really personal matters, that may be different The Bible/Quran, for example, is God making His intentions known. The idea is not about comprehending God in entirety and totality. That obviously can't be done. The idea is God revealing what's important to us.

It's like if God was a tall man, then God interacting with us on a personal level is God coming down to our level of understanding. It's a bit like you and I speaking to a child. It's "personal" in the sense that it's put in the context of a person. Personal does not mean I know all about someone. I know what's relevant to me. God knows all about me, I don't know all about God, but God can share what's important to me. God knows what we want and need. When we talk to God, He may, perhaps share some important with us based on those wants/needs.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Sorry I am a bit lost for words, my brain is fusing a little. Are you just talking about the connection you feel with G-d during prayer?

OMG are you suggesting G-d speaks to Christians through prayer???? Will the whole Chrisitan world become Prophets?

It's not exactly something I have done. It's more of a theory.

A lot of Christian groups have tried this, search on the Internet and you might find some. They pursue an experience of God and try, somehow to connect with God. I would say it's an ideal in Christianity that, I suppose, is realised only for a very few people. It's a dream. Pursuit of a connection with God may lead some in the wrong direction. People receive a feeling of connecting with God, but there is no actual connection. I'm aware of the pitfalls.

But I believe it's possible if one sets up certain conditions that make such a connection possible, or rather, make us "more compatible" with God. When I was a kid, my mother, a Christian woman, used to get me to pray every day and night. Now that I've grown up, I've grown out of it. But I remember her telling me, from time to time, that if you devote yourself to God (ie. reading the Bible, praying every day), one day you might hear Him speaking to you. You create the right conditions for a connection with God rather than pursuing a feeling of a connection.

I dropped out of a prayer habit in the last years of high school. But I believe I prayed for the wrong reasons -- it was a habit and routine. It was not devotion to God. Actually, it was a nervous habit where I asked God to help me get good marks on a test, essay, assignment or exam. Please help me to get an A+!!!! Now that I'm older, I'm thinking I have better reasons to pray than just getting through life's problems.

You, being Muslim, might be more in tune with "the conditions" as I understand you pray five times a day. Whether it's something personal . . . hmmm . . . may be up to you. It's between you and God. You and God must have an understanding. My mother is now dead. But I believe my mother for what she said. I doubt whether she would have said that if she didn't believe it herself. So one of my personal endeavours is to seek to find out the truth of what she said. That's kind of where I'm heading now.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I am actually speachless. Seriously it took me 5 minutes before I could start typing again. We are talking about G-d, you cannot achieve unity with Him.

Unity . . . not Oneness!!! Not the same thing.

Picture this. Imagine if we all lived in one house. That would be unity. Now imagine if God Himself was the home. Home sweet home. We are all where we always wanted to be.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Sorry I am reading this as I answer each bit and it keeps getting worse. The names you mention are all Prophets (pbut) of G-d, He spoke to each of them either through angels or directly. We cannot achieve that through prayer. Prophets were chosen by G-d, are you saying all Christians have been chosen by G-d for this special task, to recieve the word of G-d?

God spoke to some of them through dreams . . . But anyhow, I don't think God can only speak to us through our eyes and ears. What about putting thoughts in our minds?

[paganprophet]

--Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

How on earth can you know G-d intimately? He's not our mate, He is the ultimate Master and Lord of everything. G-d is unknowable, He is beyond human perception and forgive me I am not trying to be rude but it seems rather disrespectful to suggest you can have a personal relationship with G-d.

I don't really understand what you mean by personal knowledge. We are mere humans and we cannot know anything of G-d. Our hearts can know that G-d exists and our hearts can glimpse a sense of Him but when you say "knowledge" it suggests an understanding and that is simply not possible.

Muslimwoman, your statement reflects an opinion I have of Muhammad's Islam--that Muhammad has taught Muslims that Allah cannot be reached personally by each and every Muslim. They must rely on Muhammad only for their spiritual guidance. This means God for Muslims is the same as Muhammad's mind--any separate relationship is unthinkable. This of course will and has inevitably made Muhammad into a virtual idol as is his book and we see this idolization in the fury of Muslims when their idols, Muhammad and his Quran, are mocked by non-Muslims.

If I were a prophet with Napoleonic earthly territorial control ambitions, what better way to insure my power over believers even from the grave than to place a prohibition on any other spiritual vision but my own. When people are ready for the Spirit of Truth in prophesy bearing, we will be here..

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Christianity is not a reasonable faith. Never has been, never will be. Those that claim such, are in error. I would spare you the preconception of such error.
...

I wasn't closely following the argument, so maybe this statement is related to something else.

Merriam Webster:
Reason- 1 a: a statement offered in explanation or justification b: a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c: a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense

"Apologia" comes to mind.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by pattimax

I wasn't closely following the argument, so maybe this statement is related to something else.

Merriam Webster:
Reason- 1 a: a statement offered in explanation or justification b: a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c: a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense

"Apologia" comes to mind.

Well, ok. Let's look at the "reasonableness" of Christianity. 2000 years ago, a man walks no more than 200 miles from his place of birth, talks about money, Heaven, hell, taxes, Ceasar, His father, and love. Oh, yeah one other small thing. He says "trust in me and I will take you to God the Father, I will give you living water, I will give you the bread of life, I am the light, the truth and the way."

Then He goes and does (we are told), things like walking on water, spitting on dirt and rubbing the mud in peoples' eyes, so they can see, telling carreer fishermen they are fishing in the wrong spot, convincing same said fishermen to drop everything (including families, jobs, friends), and follow Him around like puppy dogs anticipating treats from the master, rebuilding peoples' legs with just a touch, hell even touching his robes brought healing to people doctors today can't fix!

Then! He dies, and three days later, He's up and about again! Only He glows in the dark, and walks through walls, and can make Himself unrecognizable to even the closest of His friends, one second, then Voila!, they know Him the next second. Finally, He hitches a ride with a cloud while a bevy of angels sing the hallelujah chorus, that some can hear, while others hear only thunder...

Two thousand years later, He still has followers throughout the world, though not one has physically seen this man. They put their lives on the line for Him, their very souls even...

Now, I ask you. Where is the logic (apologia) in that? There is none, yet we (I personally), still believe...And it is such a strong belief, that it is more like knowledge, obtained with no discernable prelude of facts. It is intuition in the strongest sense of the word.

Only not everybody has it. And most that do, doubt or second guess it.

Christianity transcends logic.

A joke here, but also serious: Why do you think Mr. Spock (our pillar of logic), always deffered to his Captain's hunches? Because of his track record for being right, it was only logical...

v/r

Joshua
everything I ever needed to know in life, I learned from Star Trek...

[pattimax]

… do not forget, He wasn’t just a man, he was God. He came to earth because the human species needed a final sacrifice to atone for sin. When you take into account all of the unneeded directions that man was and still is searching for it is very reasonable.
The Lord provides.

a statement offered in explanation or justification b: a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c: a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense



Christianity is complete. It is very logical. It clarifies values, eliminates moral mayhem, because unlike other forms of belief, it promises eternal life without having to work for it. But that doesn’t stop man from trying.


Did you skip kindergarten?

[pattimax]

I think...
Spock paid attention to the Captain because of his track record. That record revealed that he (the Captain) knew what he was doing. It was very logical. lol

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by pattimax

… do not forget, He wasn’t just a man, he was God. He came to earth because the human species needed a final sacrifice to atone for sin. When you take into account all of the unneeded directions that man was and still is searching for it is very reasonable.
The Lord provides.

a statement offered in explanation or justification b: a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c: a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense



Christianity is complete. It is very logical. It clarifies values, eliminates moral mayhem, because unlike other forms of belief, it promises eternal life without having to work for it. But that doesn’t stop man from trying.


Did you skip kindergarten?

ok (hands up). I'm not here to start a temperal cold war.

and yes I did skip Kindergarten, and third grade too...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by pattimax

I think...
Spock paid attention to the Captain because of his track record. That record revealed that he (the Captain) knew what he was doing. It was very logical. lol

I hear you...

v/r

Joshua

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

ok (hands up). I'm not here to start a temperal cold war.

and yes I did skip Kindergarten, and third grade too...

Well, you know that I would lose, hands down.

I also hope you know that was a joke. There is a book titled "Everything I know, I learned in kindergarten."You said,"Everythimg you know you learned on star trek." Sorry for any percieved testiness.

Karen

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

If there was a faith called oh, "Christlam", I'd probably sign up for it in a heart beat. Being the first, I'd have no bad habits to follow...

Now if it was called Jud-ist-lam I would be your first convert (as long as I didn’t have to say Jesus (pbuh) was the son of G-d but I love his teachings and would be happy to follow them). Don’t tell anyone but I have often wished someone would start just a faith, where we could rid ourselves of the politics and money grabbing and just love and worship G-d.

Originally Posted by paganprophet

Muslimwoman, your statement reflects an opinion I have of Muhammad's Islam--that Muhammad has taught Muslims that Allah cannot be reached personally by each and every Muslim. They must rely on Muhammad only for their spiritual guidance. This means God for Muslims is the same as Muhammad's mind--any separate relationship is unthinkable. This of course will and has inevitably made Muhammad into a virtual idol as is his book and we see this idolization in the fury of Muslims when their idols, Muhammad and his Quran, are mocked by non-Muslims.

I half agree with you, I was seriously shocked/put out when I read that the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) had said Muslims must love him more than their mother or father to be a good Muslim. However, I choose to reject that he would ever have said this in such a literal sense. When you read about his life and the many times he stressed that he was just a man, with no special abilities, you see that he would not put himself forward in this way. The Prophet taught us that your mother always comes first and then your father. My belief (perhaps I am deluded?) is that the Prophet was teaching us to see our faith above our love for the material, including our families. For me this message is to follow the word of G-d and teachings of the Prophet before anything else, not to idolize the Prophet himself. This is just another example of man made idolatry, which I believe comes from the need to worship something we can envisage, something we understand. I accept fully that some Muslims have taken their love of the Prophet to the level of idolatry and I am delighted to report that I steadfastly refuse to follow this path. Of course, I love the Prophet and am so grateful for his teachings (life would have been so easy for him without being a Prophet) but he was only human and therefore not to be worshipped.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

In Islam, God was the law-giver who passed on His Law to Mohammed, who gave the Law to the people -- in turn, playing out the role of God. So in Islam Mohammed was a Messenger. What if the Jesus in Christianity was an Actor?

No definitions here. Once again, no guarantees or warranties.

Hi Saltmeister

I always love reading your ideas, even if I don't always agree.

I could never accept that Jesus (pbuh) was an actor, it makes him sound false and I believe he was a real man, given special gifts by G-d but a man all the same.

In Islam we accept the special talents/gifts of Jesus (pbuh), we accept the virgin birth but deny completely the idea that Jesus (pbuh) was anything other than human. So let us explore, G-d created Adam (pbuh) and we all accept he was the first man but people do not claim him to be a son of G-d. Yet he had no mother or father, G-d simply created him. So why would anyone believe Jesus (pbuh), who had a human mother, was literally the son of G-d rather than a creation of G-d? I realise I am asking the wrong person but I would like to put that question out there.

I would really like to understand this one, so could a couple of other Christians give me their concepts on Father, Son and Holy Ghost please and answer the question about Adam & Jesus (pbut)?

[Tariki]

I have'nt read through this entire thread so this may have been mentioned before..........

I was glancing through a library book that concerned Avatars, or Incarnations of God, as this was understood within the various Faiths. At the very end was a quote from the Koran which I can only give from memory (Perhaps Muslimwoman can give us the definitive version?).......It went something like....

If God had wanted to he could have made all Faiths the same but chose not to. In the end all have to return to the One who made them, so in the meantime let each compete together in kindness. Upon their return God will explain the differences.

Anyway, whatever the actual wording, it seems like very good advice. And at the moment I am reading a novel concerning the "clash between the Christian West and the Islamic East, spiritual salvation, and the phenomenon of religion and of its power to incite war" (as the blurb goes!). One of the charactors, a Muslim, says "No man can wholly understand the word of God". Another replies..."So you told me at the time. Would that others knew it"

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

In this sense, "Father" in Christianity" could mean "master" as well as "provider." When I think of the word "Father," I actually think of a fountain of water rather than my Dad. Yes, that's right. I think of God, my Father, as a fountain of holiness, goodness and purity. It's the best metaphor I had in mind.

Master is certainly a better word for me to get my head around. However, if you accept the term Master then surely you must accept that we must supplicate to Him, worship Him, not try to be buddies with Him or comprehend Him?

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

The idea is not about comprehending God in entirety and totality. That obviously can't be done. The idea is God revealing what's important to us.

This goes to what I say Salmeister, G-d gives us what we need (rather than what we want), He knows everything so we must be thankful and humble before Him and we must accept that we are nothing in comparison and must work so hard just to be worthy of the things He gives us. To try to get to know G-d seems such an arrogant persuit to me.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

It's like if God was a tall man, then God interacting with us on a personal level is God coming down to our level of understanding.

Do you know my conversations with you are helping me to understand why my hubby gets so angry when I make jokes about G-d. To me they are harmless words and G-d has a sense of humour but I suppose to my hubby it seems disrespectful? I understand you are using this metaphor to explain your ideas to me but I find this so often in Christianity, images of G-d on his thrown, flowing white beard, etc. Why can't people just accept that He is G-d and our silly little brains cannot begin to fathom an iota of Him. Really our relationship with G-d becomes so much easier when you accept this and stop trying to 'know' G-d.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

But I believe it's possible if one sets up certain conditions that make such a connection possible, or rather, make us "more compatible" with God.

Saltmeister, we shall all be in the presence of G-d one day, we will be called to account for every sin we commit and we will be rewarded for every good deed we do. Why can't people just accept this is going to happen and spend our lives working hard to achieve G-d's pleasure rather than punishment? Why does anyone feel a need to know G-d in this life?

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I dropped out of a prayer habit in the last years of high school. But I believe I prayed for the wrong reasons

We all do that at stages in our lives, we are by nature greedy and selfish and it is this we must fight. Do you know that Islam states the age of religious responsibility as 40 years old? I have no idea how old you are but I admit I am older then 40 and I find your whole mindset does change about then. You become more accepting, more patient and you begin to understand that life is bigger than you and your needs/desires.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

You, being Muslim, might be more in tune with "the conditions" as I understand you pray five times a day. Whether it's something personal . . . hmmm . . . may be up to you. It's between you and God. You and God must have an understanding.

We do have 5 obligatory prayers a day but we are also accutely aware that our prayers will not be accepted if we do them out of habit. G-d knows what is in our hearts better than we do and He knows if we bow before Him to supplicate or if we do it to impress the neighbours.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

My mother is now dead. But I believe my mother for what she said. I doubt whether she would have said that if she didn't believe it herself. So one of my personal endeavours is to seek to find out the truth of what she said. That's kind of where I'm heading now.

I am so happy to hear how much you respect your mother, even now she has passed away. I truly hope you find what you are seeking. May I ask a personal and rude question - ignore me if the answer is 'no you can't'. When you talk about finding a unity with G-d are you perhaps talking about finding an unquestioning belief in Him, the true knowledge in your heart that He exists and one day you will return to Him? I only ask because I felt like this for a long time, I felt that I believed but I had to accepted that I questioned. It was when I found Islam that I stopped questioning and truly accepted, so now I have no need to understand, know or find unity with G-d.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Picture this. Imagine if we all lived in one house. That would be unity. Now imagine if God Himself was the home. Home sweet home. We are all where we always wanted to be.

But we cannot achieve that in this life, we can only spend this lifetime working to be good enough to hopefully be given a place in G-d's home in the next life.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

God spoke to some of them through dreams . . . But anyhow, I don't think God can only speak to us through our eyes and ears. What about putting thoughts in our minds?

These are the things that G-d placed there when we were born and we choose to follow those or not as we grow. It is the innate goodness G-d imbedded in all of us, however we have badness as well and we must choose our path every moment of every day. So if someone hears or dreams of G-d, in my opinion, they are just accepting what is already there, opening a door in their hearts and allowing G-d's messgae out.

Salaam