What am I ?

louis · 05-15-2004, 10:28 PM

From Louis ....

When I first posted here, I wasn't too sure of what to
expect. Now that I have a better idea of the level of
intelligence I'm dealing with, maybe it's time to state
my basic assumptions.
I have never practised any religion because when I was
young, I thought it was all a sham - just a projection of people's own fears and desires. But, eventually, I found
people who actually took it seriously - although nobody
could ever explain WHY in terms I could understand.
And since I've been reading on this site, I found ideas
so totaly ALIEN they don't make ANY sense to me.
I'm beginning to wonder if maybe there's something
wrong with ME - am I mentaly RETARDED or something
just because I don't comprehend such a thing as the "soul" or the "supernatural" ???
Do other people really SEE and UNDERSTAND these
things or are they just seeing what they WANT to see ?
Is there anybody who can EXPLAIN these things to me ?
I don't mean just quote words from some "holy" book .
Christians believe that Jesus was really God come
"slumming" on earth so humans would have a form
they could see, hear and touch - can someone follow
that example and SPELL things out in technical terms
that I can grasp without "buying into" their belief ?

I, Brian · 05-15-2004, 10:38 PM

There's nothing at all wrong with you, Louis, so far as I can tell.

Simply because you do not have a certain "belief" does not mean to say that you "should" have a certain belief.

Our beliefs are shaped by our experience and environment, and everyone's is different.

This forum is specifically built upon people of different faiths and experience coming together. It doesn't make you any less of a person for having your own different experiences.

Everyone's experience makes most sense ot themselves. This is simply the way we are.

samabudhi · 05-16-2004, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louis

From Louis ....

When I first posted here, I wasn't too sure of what to
expect. Now that I have a better idea of the level of
intelligence I'm dealing with, maybe it's time to state
my basic assumptions.
I have never practised any religion because when I was
young, I thought it was all a sham - just a projection of people's own fears and desires. But, eventually, I found
people who actually took it seriously - although nobody
could ever explain WHY in terms I could understand.
And since I've been reading on this site, I found ideas
so totaly ALIEN they don't make ANY sense to me.
I'm beginning to wonder if maybe there's something
wrong with ME - am I mentaly RETARDED or something
just because I don't comprehend such a thing as the "soul" or the "supernatural" ???
Do other people really SEE and UNDERSTAND these
things or are they just seeing what they WANT to see ?
Is there anybody who can EXPLAIN these things to me ?
I don't mean just quote words from some "holy" book .
Christians believe that Jesus was really God come
"slumming" on earth so humans would have a form
they could see, hear and touch - can someone follow
that example and SPELL things out in technical terms
that I can grasp without "buying into" their belief ?

I started off blank. Then I went to a Christian pre-school and tried to persuade my dad to give money to the beggars. Then I went to junior school which was very Christ orientated and I pulled what they taught me apart. I wanted to write an Anti-Bible which would consist of disproofs of stories in the Bible. HA! I laugh now. I then considered myself atheist.
Then when I went to high school I didn't think of religion much cause I thought I knew it all anyway until I got into Taoism in std8/grade10.
That led to meditation along with martial arts and yoga and finally I'm sitting here at Buddhism arguing with Tantrics about whether one can achieve enlightenment without a Guru or not.

Along the way, I've switched views about whether God exists or not so many times. I've always had the same idea, it's just that my definition of God has changed.

Quote:

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe there's something
wrong with ME

No. It's just your understanding that may need a bit of tweaking. Once you understand everyone's point of view, then you'll feel fine again. Does this mean you were ever not fine? Of course not.

Quote:

Do other people really SEE and UNDERSTAND these
things or are they just seeing what they WANT to see ?

How accurately do you think words can explain feelings? Not very well I'm sure you'll agree. Have you ever had a dream that when you try to tell someone about it, you always feel like they're so far off understanding what you're talking about. Words are not good enough. Whenever someone talks about spiritual matters, you probably take them far too literally. This is a possible cause of your confusion.

Quote:

am I mentaly RETARDED or something
just because I don't comprehend such a thing as the "soul" or the "supernatural" ???

No. You just don't see it. Do you see gravity? No, but it's effects are clear. For me, God is just like gravity. A force. It isn't personal. But a personal God is always the big question for most people. They don't understand that everything will appear personal to a person.

My favourite quote goes:

Quote:

To an artificial mind, all reality is virtual.

Just take a moment to ponder the ramifications of this. A chill goes down my spine everytime I think about it.
Similarly:

Quote:

To a personal being, all phenomena are personal.

We can pick at it with our rational mind, but ultimately we see everything as a reflection of ourselves.

If you want to understand why everyone thinks what they do, then I suggest you try and understand how the mind works, if you're not already trying.

louis · 05-16-2004, 04:28 PM

How accurately do you think words can explain feelings? Not very well I'm sure you'll agree. Have you ever had a dream that when you try to tell someone about it, you always feel like they're so far off understanding what you're talking about. Words are not good enough. Whenever someone talks about spiritual matters, you probably take them far too literally. This is a possible cause of your confusion.

From Louis...
Thank you for the advice.
Actually, I am luckier than some - I don't have to rely on
just words - I can draw pictures and SHOW other people what I imagine .
And I get confused only when I compare myself to
other people - in my own mind, everything appears
clear and in sharp focus.
It's other people's thinking that seems fuzzy to me.

louis · 05-16-2004, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

There's nothing at all wrong with you, Louis, so far as I can tell.

Simply because you do not have a certain "belief" does not mean to say that you "should" have a certain belief.

Our beliefs are shaped by our experience and environment, and everyone's is different.

This forum is specifically built upon people of different faiths and experience coming together. It doesn't make you any less of a person for having your own different experiences.

Everyone's experience makes most sense ot themselves. This is simply the way we are.

From Louis....
Thanks for the encouragement.
The problem about "personal experience" is it's YOUR
experience or THEIR experience, not MINE - I never
HAD any such experience. When it comes to religion,
I'm still BLANK .
I think that may be the basic difference between me and
believers - when they come to religion, they "bring" with
them a personal desire, hoping to find ideas that appear to re-inforce that desire - make them think it could
actually be fulfilled some day.
I HAVE no such desires - I made sure all my desires
were fulfilled through my own devices. All I bring with
me is intellectual curiosity.

samabudhi · 05-17-2004, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louis

I think that may be the basic difference between me and
believers - when they come to religion, they "bring" with
them a personal desire, hoping to find ideas that appear to re-inforce that desire - make them think it could
actually be fulfilled some day.
I HAVE no such desires - I made sure all my desires
were fulfilled through my own devices. All I bring with
me is intellectual curiosity.

Fair enough. But in my opinion intellectual curiosity is insatiable. There is no end to the amount of information needed to quench one's thirst. General Buddhist opinion is that this is not the best sort of desire. The desire to be happy is more beneficial. In a way, this is more like what religion is about. Being happy rather than being right. (this doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong, just that their motives are different.)

louis · 05-17-2004, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Fair enough. But in my opinion intellectual curiosity is insatiable. There is no end to the amount of information needed to quench one's thirst. General Buddhist opinion is that this is not the best sort of desire. The desire to be happy is more beneficial. In a way, this is more like what religion is about. Being happy rather than being right. (this doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong, just that their motives are different.)

From Louis..
That makes sense ...
I started out having nothing and knowing nothing and
for my first few years, that was just fine.
I gradually learned about some of the fun things to do
and have - then proceeded to aquire JUST ENOUGH
things to keep myself comfortable and amused.
Maybe too soon in life, I found the best way to be
happy is to be content with whatever you already have -
so I have have NO ambition to "get more" THINGS -
just to get more KNOWLEGE.
Because knowledge is what I value most.
Knowledge means : ACCURATE PERCEPTION OF REALITY -

barefootgal9 · 05-18-2004, 07:25 AM

Hi Louis!

Well, let me give you my thoughts on these mysteries: soul, God, spirituality. I too have been from religion, through agnosticism and atheism and back to religion, struggling with these concepts. 'tis why I have so many gray hairs, I suppose.

We are, materially speaking, bundles of biological stuff living on a globe of stuff surrounded by stuff. We can acquire information, job qualifications and titles, experiences, clothes, illnesses... all manner of stuff. None of it defines us. None of it answers: "so what?"

This is because for us human beings, these things are all external to ourselves. They aren't us and ultimately they don't satisfy us (unless we are in a pretty "shut down" condition as human beings). This objective, external reality isn't our story as human beings. When we look deeply inside ourselves, this stuff becomes virtually non-existent.

Because as human beings, we exist first and formost in a "subjective" reality. We live in it, we die in it. Our true reality is what it >feels< like to experience our lives, what it >means< to us. When we look deeply within ourselves, we find unmeasurable and immaterial things like "love," compassion," "justice," "hope," "beauty, "purpose," etc. From a purely material view, these are non-existent things, they are not "stuff." These belong to the immaterial, "spiritual" reality. They belong not to the realm of facts and information, but to the realm of "Truth."

These are the mysterious qualities that make the greatest ultimate difference in how we experience our human-ness. The things that create the real quality of our lives. They are very real, and profoundly impact how we feel about ourselves and how we relate to the larger, even infinite, reality in which we find ourselves.

So, my simple definitions then are:

"Spirituality" is an attitude and practice of seeking to develop those subjective human qualities (in my Faith, we call them "divine attributes") which reside within us, consciously striving to deepen our understanding of these qualities, draw meaning from them, and strengthen them in our selves. They expand our lives into deeper and richer levels than "stuff" can.

"soul" is that aspect of ourselves (which, again, is a mystery) which contemplates, cares about and experiences these "divine attributes," and grows in these qualities.

"God" is the Mystery from which these attributes proceed, is the ultimate and sum of these qualities. The "Goal" of our soul's desire.

Those are my working definitions. I believe they work regardless of specific religion or doctrine. Well, they work for me, anyway! Hope you'll find them useful.

Please permit me to offer one quote on the topic of looking within yourself to discover these realities (which I believe, is the end purpose to all religions):

13. O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.
-- The Hidden Words/Arabic by Baha'u'llah

barefootgal9 · 05-18-2004, 07:49 AM

In answer to your question "what am I" I would answer:

You are a spiritual being, a soul, seeking the Object of it's desire.

Does that work for you?

Good luck in your quest!

bfg

louis · 05-18-2004, 05:52 PM

13. O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.
-- The Hidden Words/Arabic by Baha'u'llah

From Louis...
Hi, Barefootgal....
Different words - familiar concept...
Most religions have the same advice for the individual -
Get out of YOURSELF and BE PART OF THAT BIG WORLD OUTSIDE !
If any part of yourself holds you back, DISCARD IT !
Never mind that the material world is the only world we can COMPREHEND
as REAL - just CHUCK all that and dive into the so-called "SPIRITUAL" world .
But what if it should turn that this material world IS the real one after all - and we give it up for something that's NOT REAL ????
I just think I should have a CLEAR LOOK before I leap !

barefootgal9 · 05-19-2004, 07:42 AM

Louis - I don't think it is a matter of the two worlds being mutually antagonistic; with the exception that if material/physical reality is your "god and master" - your ability to "soar" in the realm of the spirit may well be sacrificed.

Thus Buddhism teaches that all our suffering stems from "attachment" to the world of illusion (the physical) - Christ taught that unless one is willing to sacrifice all, one can't take the big leap into the "kingdom of heaven." This concept is also strongly present in Baha'i, but explicitly tempered by moderation. We are urged to "walk the spiritual path with practical feet." (In Baha'i, asceticism -- complete rejection of the world, is actually forbidden. Rather the material world and human society seen as a workshop for spiritual development - and our human community as a responsiblilty. In fact, seems to me that all those "divine attributes" would become quite irrelevant if we lived in isolation with just our navels tod deal with!)

The influence and power of the material is not so easy to shed - nor does plunging into the ocean of spiritual meanings cause you to become disfuncional in the material world! Ideally, the deeper insights of the "dance" with spirit gives you the capacity to detach emotionally from the pains and pressures of daily life and see them more clearly and dispassionately; being more able to accept the accidents and griefs of life, while becoming more empowered, encouraged and clear-sighted that we are able to be more effective in shaping what we can.

The goal, as I perceive it, is to empower the individual with the capacity for choice -- which being the thrall of the world, politics, fads, peer pressure, material desire deprives us of. The question "what is my master?" is a useful one here. If our life's energies are entirely expended on, say, having the most perfect home in the neighborhood - one can justifiably think that Home and Garden TV, or Martha Stewart is your lord and master. If you can contemplate the state of the world, assess your deepest desires and capacities, then complete your MBA, sell the house and open an AIDs clinic in Zaire - this would be a path chosen by a person who has developed his spiritual attributes and his power to choose to serve these rather than the Better Homes & Gardens ideal.

This, I believe, is what is meant by "why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me?" and "how dost thou busy thyself with another?" - an exhortation found in some form, I think, in every religious tradition.

We find it in even stronger form in another of Baha'u'llah's "Hidden Words:"

O SON OF MAN!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.

That is a complete immersion in spirituality which few reach instantly. By far the majority of us learn and grow a bit every day ... kind of "nibbling toward eternity." You can spend a lifetime just exploring the dimensions of that "Me" within you. And learning bit by bit, what pleasure of "thine own" is getting in the way of that Me fully living. Much to think about in just this one Hidden Word.

A deep and full comprehension of what it means to be "spiritual" takes a great deal of effort, study and practice ... just as it does if our goal is to be an accomplished musician, or a great chef. Taking a new direction may be marked by a specific moment of decision, (and certainly, if we never decide to aim our life in a certain direction, it's unlikely we will get much of anywhere) but it is a lifelong journey.

It's a joyful, transforming, challenging, fascinating and rewarding path that can enable a person to discover tremendous capacities they might never have suspected in themselves. It also has unique challenges and difficulties. But so to does learning to play the flute. It's a great adventure - I hope you will embark on it!

Nancy

louis · 05-19-2004, 02:36 PM

The goal, as I perceive it, is to empower the individual with the capacity for choice -- which being the thrall of the world, politics, fads, peer pressure, material desire deprives us of. The question "what is my master?" is a useful one here.

From Louis...
Forgive me if I find your words a bit strange...
I have ALWAYS percieved myslef to be an INDIVIDUAL .
No need to "be empowered with choice" - I have ALWAYS
had that power. No need to "get it" from society or religion.. ( which really means OTHER PEOPLE who think they are running things ).
Such things as "fads, peer pressure or politics" mean
nothing to me and material objects are just temporary
conveniences - easily replaced.
As for a "master", I have always been master of myself -
no need to seek another master or become master of
anyone else.

barefootgal9 · 05-19-2004, 04:34 PM

"As for a "master", I have always been master of myself -
no need to seek another master or become master of
anyone else."

Louis

All due respect, but if you are indeed the absolute master of yourself and 100% free from every possible influence -- well, you are a unique creature indeed!

Myself, I agree with the philosopher Karl Popper:

"Our knowledge can only be finite, while our ignorance must necessarily be infinte."

I always assume I haven't "got it" yet. Without this intillectual humility, there's not much incentive to discovering anything new! Nor would there be any possibilty of looking back and finding ourselves thinking, "oh, I've learned so much since then!" Growth in knowledge and understanding is an infinite process, and there are always new avenues to explore. I believe spirituality is an especially rich vein to mine.

I think if you honestly reflect upon what you think about most things, you'll find many influences besides your own independent will. (Nothing personal -- I believe it is the nature of the human condition.)

We are the products of our genes and biochemical processes, our education, upbringing and experiences. Do you speak only when spoken to? Do you eat your rivals brains? Do you open doors for elderly ladies? Do you use the limited vocabulary of a human language? Do you believe in equality under the law? Do you keep your house tidy? Do you feel it is more important to love one's country than one's county? Do you think a young man ought to leave home and make his own way in the world by the age of 25, at least? Do you think the Socrate's faithfulness to truth is an ideal worthy of emulation? Do you feel it is right that a man should marry one woman, and wrong to marry twelve? Is it more admirable to be "independent" than a hard working member of your family group? It is better to work hard and build a thriving business than emigrate to Central America to teach mosquito control methods for virtually no financial reward? Does "submission" to a religious law (but not a civil law) imply weakness of will and loss of personal sovereignty?

Every "of course," or "of course not" in response to questions like these is a result of cultural conditioning. Had you been raised in another time and place, your answers to these questions would differ.

It's my personal belief that the common assumption that obedience to religious law represents a loss of liberty and independence is a consequence of cultural conditioning, which, (tho it may well be true in SOME religious movements) I would encourage everyone to question. Real spirituality (as opposed to religiosity or 'creedism', I believe, has exactly the opposite effect. Likewise the assumption in the intellectual/academic community that spiritual or religious thinking is automatically antithetical to intelligence and freedom of thought, and nothing but a prison of superstitions. (Rather I find exploring spirituality a daily, invigorating "workout" - and I think the caliber of the minds at work here at CR constitute a great proof of that reason and spirituality can be mutually enhancing.)

If such assumptions as these prevent you from exploring your own spiritual nature and inquisitiveness, they are in themselves the kinds of "attachments" I would suggest act as barriers to our spiritual growth.

Please know that I am not trying to undermine your self-estimation at all, or imply that you are a quivering and helpless wimp! I'm just trying to answer your inquiries and the implied question "what is the purpose of this 'spiritual' stuff, anyway?" Ultimately, it's up to you to explore your own questions and answers.

You will no doubt develop your own thoughts on all these points - I am just throwing them out to you for your consideration. If some of them are at all useful to you, excellent!

blessings & peace!
Nancy

lunamoth · 05-20-2004, 02:44 AM

Louis,

You've recieved many interesting and different responses to your question "What am I?" but I shall also throw in my two cents (plus a $1.25 or so will get you a cup of coffee, as they say).

You are a soul. You just happen to have a body. And not for long, as you pointed out.

I think your presence on this site, and all the interesting questions you ask, indicate that you are seeking something, that you do feel that you are on some kind of journey. You seem to be wondering what kind of journeys other folks are on, comparing notes. You seem to be honestly testing the set of assumptions you came with. I don't think there is anything wrong with that--very sane, in fact!

Perhaps you will ultimately find a path you wish to follow and see where it takes you. I know little about objectivism, to which you say you gravitate. I did read Atlas Shrugged and while it seemed attractive to be so logical, I felt in the end it lacked something. How would objectivism answer your question: What am I?

samabudhi · 05-20-2004, 06:14 AM

There is an environment. Then there is your body, then your mind, then your spirit/soul whatever you want to call it.
So what are you? The soul? The body? I think all of the above, in growing degrees as you move toward soul.
The soul has power over the mind. The mind over the body and the body over the environment. But ultimately, it is the other way round. The body could not live without an environment, the mind could not live without a body and the soul could not live without a mind. I am not of the satchitananda school. The one where the soul is indestructable but everything else is.

Once I came to this realisation, there was a further step to take. This was that the soul cannot live without a mind and the mind cannot live without a soul. The same with mind and body, and, yes, body with environment. It's a two-way exchange. If it were any other way, things would get way unbalanced. Yin would defeat Yang. The universe's temperature would hurtle to one extreme, 0k or infinite k.

I'll post a bit more about environment if there's any interest.