What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live?

[Herriot]

This bothers me a lot and helds me back from accpeting Christ. To me it is just not fair. I know that amy ability to comprehend most of the truth is very limited but I believe that there must be a satisfying answer even at my level.

So what about the people that hadn't heard? today, there is slightly over 6 billion people walking on the surface of the Earth. But think about this - if Jesus died around 33AD - until the fall of Rome - around 450 years, until the discovery of America - 1450 years, until the invetion of priniting press 1500 years, until the invetion of trains,planes,phone,internet - almost 19 centuries!!!

I can't even imagine how many people lived between 33AD - 2005AD I don't even dare to quess, but it will be definetly over 40-50 billion people.
Now what about the number of people that lived before Christ.There were people in Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, America - already - at least according the first written documents - 2000BC - so another few billion here.

So my point - these people - especialy those before Christ and after him until lets say 1600, had no chance to know about him through the sriptures.
That is not fair to me.They had no chance to live fulfiled meaningful live - they had no standard to go along with. Why wasn't Chridt at least born on every continent 2000BC?
Are those people doomed?sentenced to hell?in England there were druids and praising the nature,every culture had it's on conditions to emerge from - so different religions came about.
Then Jeseus came and said I am THE way - the only way.That is so hard for me to take. It just doesn't seem right.Why do I ave the chance to know about him and billions of others don't?
Even if they are saved - they had had no chance to live a meaningful live - they were drinking water and felt thirsty again.

Than, even today - people growup in conditions where everybody around is Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist - they have small probability to know deeply about Christ as well.What about those in Africa or Australia - there are so many places were people just have no acces to Christ.
I know that Paul said that they are without an excuse because they can see God around - but this doesn't tell you all the parables Jesus did.
People say that God has it's own way to reach people that we don't know of - tat also seems to me like an excuse for just not knowing.
I know, I feel there is a logical solution to this. I wan to understand it - I wan to accept Chirst, but I wan to do it with all my mind too.
So if you have an answer let me know.

[BlaznFattyz]

walking into heaven through jesus is like walking straight into a popular night club because your friends with the owner, you walk right pass security and as he lifts the rope.

everyone else needs to wait in line and have their i.d. checked at the door, and be patted down. some might not get in at all.

[Herriot]

Yes, but doesn't answer my question - what about the people tat haven't heard???

[BlaznFattyz]

only god knows the outcome of those to be judged.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Herriot

This bothers me a lot and helds me back from accpeting Christ. To me it is just not fair. I know that amy ability to comprehend most of the truth is very limited but I believe that there must be a satisfying answer even at my level.

Good point, though you undersell your self unfairly I should think.

So what about the people that hadn't heard? today, there is slightly over 6 billion people walking on the surface of the Earth. But think about this - if Jesus died around 33AD - until the fall of Rome - around 450 years, until the discovery of America - 1450 years, until the invetion of priniting press 1500 years, until the invetion of trains,planes,phone,internet - almost 19 centuries!!!

There were roughly 300,000,000 people on earth at the birth of Christ, 45-85,000,000 of which were part of the Roman Empire.

There are 6,215,000,000 alive today (estimated)

I can't even imagine how many people lived between 33AD - 2005AD I don't even dare to quess, but it will be definetly over 40-50 billion people.
Now what about the number of people that lived before Christ.There were people in Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, America - already - at least according the first written documents - 2000BC - so another few billion here.

From 8000 BC to today the number of those born is estimated at 106,456,367,669. From 1 AD to today the number of those born is estimated at 60,000,000,000. Percent of those ever born who are living today: 5.8%

So my point - these people - especialy those before Christ and after him until lets say 1600, had no chance to know about him through the sriptures.
That is not fair to me.They had no chance to live fulfiled meaningful live - they had no standard to go along with. Why wasn't Chridt at least born on every continent 2000BC?
Are those people doomed?sentenced to hell?in England there were druids and praising the nature,every culture had it's on conditions to emerge from - so different religions came about.
Then Jeseus came and said I am THE way - the only way.That is so hard for me to take. It just doesn't seem right.Why do I ave the chance to know about him and billions of others don't?
Even if they are saved - they had had no chance to live a meaningful live - they were drinking water and felt thirsty again.

Don't beat yourself up on this Harriot. Remember God reveals Himself to every person in nature, and in man's heart. The proof of this is self evident in daily life. If I take from you what is yours, or speak ill of you, or ignore you, or threaten you with harm, or bear false witness against you, or judge you unfairly...do you not feel hurt and pain? These are the basic rules all men understand. No one had to tell us these are wrong to do to others, we are born with the knowledge. They are expressions of violations of the seven Noahidic Laws. With this in mind, consider Deuteronomy 4:29 “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle: Even from there (anywhere at anytime), everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

Than, even today - people growup in conditions where everybody around is Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist - they have small probability to know deeply about Christ as well.What about those in Africa or Australia - there are so many places were people just have no acces to Christ.
I know that Paul said that they are without an excuse because they can see God around - but this doesn't tell you all the parables Jesus did.
People say that God has it's own way to reach people that we don't know of - tat also seems to me like an excuse for just not knowing.
I know, I feel there is a logical solution to this. I wan to understand it - I wan to accept Chirst, but I wan to do it with all my mind too.
So if you have an answer let me know.

Yes I see a potential trouble spot in your reasoning. It is noble to worry about others more than self, however there are certain circumstances where it is not your place to worry. We've got to put our own house in order before we fret over the "mess" in another's house.

What good is one, if they come upon a car accident with injuries, and they do not know first aid, or emergency response? One can call for help, and maybe direct traffic around the accident, and perhaps talk to the injured or cover them with a warm blanket, but has no knowledge how to tend to the injuries.

But if one had the training and knowledge, one could give first aid, until the professional experts arrived. One might even save a life, or stabilize the injured from further damage, because of having that first aid knowledge.

Likewise it is useless to worry about another's peace of mind and/or "salvation", unless one is saved and has peace of mind themselves.

I wouldn't put the cart before the horse...search for Christ for yourself first. He'll teach you what you need to do for others after He's worked with you.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

BTW BlazenFatty, that was an interesting analogy...the night club scenario.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Herriot

This bothers me a lot and helds me back from accpeting Christ. To me it is just not fair. I know that amy ability to comprehend most of the truth is very limited but I believe that there must be a satisfying answer even at my level.

So what about the people that hadn't heard? today, there is slightly over 6 billion people walking on the surface of the Earth. But think about this - if Jesus died around 33AD - until the fall of Rome - around 450 years, until the discovery of America - 1450 years, until the invetion of priniting press 1500 years, until the invetion of trains,planes,phone,internet - almost 19 centuries!!!

I can't even imagine how many people lived between 33AD - 2005AD I don't even dare to quess, but it will be definetly over 40-50 billion people.
Now what about the number of people that lived before Christ.There were people in Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, America - already - at least according the first written documents - 2000BC - so another few billion here.

So my point - these people - especialy those before Christ and after him until lets say 1600, had no chance to know about him through the sriptures.
That is not fair to me.They had no chance to live fulfiled meaningful live - they had no standard to go along with. Why wasn't Chridt at least born on every continent 2000BC?
Are those people doomed?sentenced to hell?in England there were druids and praising the nature,every culture had it's on conditions to emerge from - so different religions came about.
Then Jeseus came and said I am THE way - the only way.That is so hard for me to take. It just doesn't seem right.Why do I ave the chance to know about him and billions of others don't?
Even if they are saved - they had had no chance to live a meaningful live - they were drinking water and felt thirsty again.

Than, even today - people growup in conditions where everybody around is Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist - they have small probability to know deeply about Christ as well.What about those in Africa or Australia - there are so many places were people just have no acces to Christ.
I know that Paul said that they are without an excuse because they can see God around - but this doesn't tell you all the parables Jesus did.
People say that God has it's own way to reach people that we don't know of - tat also seems to me like an excuse for just not knowing.
I know, I feel there is a logical solution to this. I wan to understand it - I wan to accept Chirst, but I wan to do it with all my mind too.
So if you have an answer let me know.

Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment ...John 5;28-29 it is my belief as one of Jehovahs witness that there is going to be a resurretion of good and bad , the judgement will start after the resurrection, this resurrection will happen on a paradise earth , and they will be judged not on their past deeds before they died ,but on how they live from after their resurrection .

and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous Acts 24;15 so no worries everyone will have the chance to get in line with Gods way, if they are of the right heart condition ,but of course only Jehovah and Jesus christ can read hearts and they are the judges

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by mee

Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment ...John 5;28-29 it is my belief as one of Jehovahs witness that there is going to be a resurretion of good and bad , the judgement will start after the resurrection, this resurrection will happen on a paradise earth , and they will be judged not on their past deeds before they died ,but on how they live from after their resurrection .

and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous Acts 24;15 so no worries everyone will have the chance to get in line with Gods way, if they are of the right heart condition ,but of course only Jehovah and Jesus christ can read hearts and they are the judges

I find this belief very interesting and I must not have been paying attention because I do not remember ever reading such a belief by JWs before. Do you mean that all who ever lived will be resurrected and live in paradise? And everyone will still have the choice to do evil (and thus lose their chance at reconciliatin with God)? And if this is so, how can it be considred paradise if evil and rebellion against God is still going on? On the one hand this view does sound hopeful, but on the other it does not make sense to me.

peace,
lunamoth

[mee]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I find this belief very interesting and I must not have been paying attention because I do not remember ever reading such a belief by JWs before. Do you mean that all who ever lived will be resurrected and live in paradise? And everyone will still have the choice to do evil (and thus lose their chance at reconciliatin with God)? And if this is so, how can it be considred paradise if evil and rebellion against God is still going on? On the one hand this view does sound hopeful, but on the other it does not make sense to me.

peace,
lunamoth

those in Jehovahs memory will be resurrected, and the bible says it will be rightous and unrightous ones, plus when the resurrection is going on, satan will nolonger be on the earth to influence people because he will have been put out of the way for a thousand years, the people will not be taught satans way only Gods way . this world now is in the power of the wicked one 1 john 5;19 but not then ,so that will make a big difference ,plus it will take a thousand years to get man back to a perfect state ,the same as Adam and eve before they became disobedient

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by mee

those in Jehovahs memory will be resurrected, and the bible says it will be rightous and unrightous ones, plus when the resurrection is going on, satan will nolonger be on the earth to influence people because he will have been put out of the way for a thousand years, the people will not be taught satans way only Gods way . this world now is in the power of the wicked one 1 john 5;19 but not then ,so that will make a big difference ,plus it will take a thousand years to get man back to a perfect state ,the same as Adam and eve before they became disobedient

my pastor & the church talks about this. Faithfulservant used to explain this.
i am sorry but the 1000 years of peace just never made any sense to me. i believe in it because i believe i will be in it & how i can believe in something that does not make sense i do not know, but i do.

what happens to all the cars in the 1000 years of peace? & what happens to all the people going to work during rush hour?
what i mean is, how can there be peace if people can still get into accidents.
my question is...what happens to all the cars & the stuff man keeps making?
& where are all the people who do not love God at this time?

also, who will we be teaching in the new millineal kingdom??? & how does a spirit man teach flesh people? who will i be teaching & what will i be teaching?

honestly i think the whole reason i dont understand it is because i have never searched & prayed, & done an in depth study on it...so it is really my own fault.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bandit

my pastor & the church talks about this. Faithfulservant used to explain this.
i am sorry but the 1000 years of peace just never made any sense to me. i believe in it because i believe i will be in it & how i can believe in something that does not make sense i do not know, but i do.

what happens to all the cars in the 1000 years of peace? & what happens to all the people going to work during rush hour?
what i mean is, how can there be peace if people can still get into accidents.
my question is...what happens to all the cars & the stuff man keeps making?
& where are all the people who do not love God at this time?

also, who will we be teaching in the new millineal kingdom??? & how does a spirit man teach flesh people? who will i be teaching & what will i be teaching?

honestly i think the whole reason i dont understand it is because i have never searched & prayed, & done an in depth study on it...so it is really my own fault.

for me ,i dont worry about how things will be done after armageddon. i tend to focus on where we are in the stream of time regarding bible prophecy, as man has always done things his way in all walks of life,it is all trile and error, we may think that cars and jobs that we have now are great , but when things are done Gods way then i am quite sure they will be even better than our manmade things , those who have died have only known things according to imperfect mens ways of doing things ,so in the ressurection, there will no longer be manmade goverments on the earth Daniel 2;44 . because God will get rid of all manmade goverments at armaggedon, and the only ones left after armaggedon will be those who are willing to go along with Gods heavenly goverment ,so these ressurected ones , will be resurrected into a world completley different to how the world is ruled now, the fact is people do not realize how much power satan has at this point in time , what a relief it will be to not have sickness ,death, wars, lots of different sorts of goverment making a mess of things, i am not saying that the world will be free of cars and jobs but ,we just know that when the world is run in the right way according to Gods way ,it will be better. satan has great power now but not after armageddon.

[johnp.]

Hello Herriot.

To me it is just not fair.

We are not told to judge God but trust in Christ. What is is because He determines all things that happen.

So what about the people that hadn't heard?

Faith comes by hearing and those who do not hear are not saved. It is God who determines who hears and hears not and who hears and believes and those who hear and do not understand. For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. John 12:39-41.

One must be born again (John 3:3) before any understanding can come. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:15.

So what about the people that hadn't heard?

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... Romans 2:12.
Ps 147:19-20 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
This has the effect that any born outside of hear-shot of Israel were destined, by God, for Hell.

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 9:14-16.

Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him... So with those who hear and do not believe, they do not believe because God is not drawing them. Those God draws to Christ, and only those, Christ says to us, "and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

..."Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Rom 10:13.
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

I know, I feel there is a logical solution to this.

The solution is to trust Christ.

john.

[Faithfulservant]

Its all about faith.. we are saved by faith.. The early fathers were saved by their faith.. just as we are saved by our faith.. How our Father in heaven chooses to deal with individuals that have never known Christ is sure to be merciful and loving.. This is the same Father that gave His only begotten Son as a sacrifice for sins.. The number one command throughout the bible is to "Fear not"

The thing that God wants of us is to desire that personal relationship with Him.. By allowing those doubts to get in the way of that desire to know Him.. hurts you. If you give your doubts and fears to Him in your journey with Him.. He will help you. I have had the same fears and doubts and He helped me. Believe His promises to you..

FS

[Thomas]

You touch a profound point - many of the later congregations hold a strict line between who are saved, and who are not, but the Catholic and Orthodox churches (and I can only talk for the former) hold as a fact that:

Not one soul was lost for the want of the love of God.

So this means that if someone died before the incarnation, or lives in some remote fastness, than they will carry no blame nor burden for not hearing the Good News of the gospel.

Scripture supplies ample evidence for this:

"Blessed are they who have not seen, and yet believe."
John 20:29

or how about:

"Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them."
Luke 12:37

Or look at the Beatitudes (Matthew Ch5) or the Parable of the Wise and Unwise Virgins (Matthew Ch25)

There is ample evidence in Scripture that God listens not to the wise head nor the clever tongue - but to the heart, and those who love God - however they might know Him - welcome Christ into the heart AS A STRANGER and know Him there.

Be absolutely assured - not one soul was lost for the want of the love of God.

Thomas

[johnp.]

Hello Thomas nice to meet you.

the Catholic and Orthodox churches (and I can only talk for the former) hold as a fact that:

The Church of England's 39 Articles are Calvinistic and opposes your Not one soul was lost for the want of the love of God.
I believe scripture opposes the view that God loves all men. Romans 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

If God loved all men then either He would protect all men or His love will have failed for those who go to Hell.
1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails...

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Since salvation depends on God's mercy and since mercy is not extended to those not chosen then He cannot love all men.

So this means that if someone died before the incarnation, or lives in some remote fastness, then they will carry no blame nor burden for not hearing the Good News of the gospel.

That's right. If a man has not heard "Whosoever believes in Christ will be saved." He is not required to believe it but he will go to Hell as an unforgiven sinner and judgement will take place on what he did know. Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

or how about: (Luke 12:37.)

I don't understand this one. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Romans 13:13.
If a man is not forgiven by Christ then he must keep the whole law perfectly.

MT 5:1 Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them, saying:

This is not a teaching for everyone but Christians alone. The teaching carries on to the Lord's prayer and that starts 'Our Father'. Not all men are God's Children but only those given the right, Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 1:12-13.

Be absolutely assured - not one soul was lost for the want of the love of God.

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

And you have no authority to assure anyone. Since God hardens whoever He pleases we should not give a false hope.
Judas was doomed. John 17:12 ...None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Doom. 4 a : to force irresistibly or inexorably, consign irrevocably, relegate irretrievably, or constrain inescapably : destine or predestine ineluctably

Judas was created to betray Christ and to spend forever in Hell.

I know it sounds harsh and I have not tried to pretty it up but it is sound doctrine and still the articles of faith for the Church of England, in particular numbers 17. (Not that many in it believe it.)

john.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by johnp.

Hello Thomas nice to meet you.



The Church of England's 39 Articles are Calvinistic and opposes your Not one soul was lost for the want of the love of God.
I believe scripture opposes the view that God loves all men. Romans 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

If God loved all men then either He would protect all men or His love will have failed for those who go to Hell.
1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails...

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Since salvation depends on God's mercy and since mercy is not extended to those not chosen then He cannot love all men.



That's right. If a man has not heard "Whosoever believes in Christ will be saved." He is not required to believe it but he will go to Hell as an unforgiven sinner and judgement will take place on what he did know. Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...



I don't understand this one. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Romans 13:13.
If a man is not forgiven by Christ then he must keep the whole law perfectly.

MT 5:1 Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them, saying:

This is not a teaching for everyone but Christians alone. The teaching carries on to the Lord's prayer and that starts 'Our Father'. Not all men are God's Children but only those given the right, Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 1:12-13.



Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

And you have no authority to assure anyone. Since God hardens whoever He pleases we should not give a false hope.
Judas was doomed. John 17:12 ...None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Doom. 4 a : to force irresistibly or inexorably, consign irrevocably, relegate irretrievably, or constrain inescapably : destine or predestine ineluctably

Judas was created to betray Christ and to spend forever in Hell.

I know it sounds harsh and I have not tried to pretty it up but it is sound doctrine and still the articles of faith for the Church of England, in particular numbers 17. (Not that many in it believe it.)

john.

Hence, by your view a father and son are destined to be at eachothers' throats, for life.

Second your view automatically assumes God has picked his choice and the rest are fodder. Well, there is also a verse that states "Many are called, few are chosen". However the term "chosen" is not that God chooses, but that man chooses to come to the Lord. Few choose to come to God.

Sad straits but very true.

Third, doctrines are not bible, they are man made edicts. Doctrines are subject to a "litmus" test. Not many pass with the right color.

my thoughts

v/r

Q