What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live? - Page 4

Quahom1 · 01-15-2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

What I learnt while being amungst the sheep was that those who did not have a chance or do not get the chance, or those who -think- they are correctly worshipping god but are not, will get the chance to do the "correct thing" at judgement day.

Indeed, all will bend knee on that day. The trick is to get God to pick one up and embrace him/her. I look forward to that day. I think you will be there next to me as well...(don't ask).

v/r

Joshua

17th Angel · 01-15-2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

People dont go to hell because they dont hear the gospel, rather they go there for their law breaking (sins).

lol... see you in "hell" then, Silas... Are we all but sinners, according to your god? Are we not born with sin? :\

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Indeed, all will bend knee on that day. The trick is to get God to pick one up and embrace him/her. I look forward to that day. I think you will be there next to me as well...(don't ask).

v/r

Joshua

If that day comes, and we are stood there, I would gladly eat humble pie.

And you'd best put a word in for me when we are stood there

Silas · 01-15-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

lol... see you in "hell" then, Silas... Are we all but sinners, according to your god? Are we not born with sin? :\

Yes, we are all sinners and born in sin. That much should be obvious, right?

17th Angel · 01-15-2007, 04:48 PM

But, you said all that sin go to hell ;/ How do you not sin? If your born with it?

Silas · 01-15-2007, 04:56 PM

17th Angel

But, you said all that sin go to hell

No I didnt. I said all unforgiven sinners go to Hell. You can either repent and trust in the Savior - the one who's death was an atonning sacrifice for sinners to justify them before God, or you can choose to not believe and therefore pay your own debt for breaking God's law.

How do you not sin?

I wish I dont sin!!

If your born with it?

Not "if" dude. You are born in sin. Look at yourself. Isnt it easy to break God's laws? Isnt it easy to lie and be self absorbed and selfish and self centered? Look at children. Who teaches them to be so sneaky and conniving little liars? Dont we have to teach them the opposite? Yes, we do. Why?

17th Angel · 01-15-2007, 05:00 PM

Dude!! lol...

Can you break a law if you don't know that law?

Look at myself? *looks at himself* I'm not a sinner..

You can mark me as a sinner, I however do not.

So anyway, those who do not go by the law of god are going to go to hell unless they "accept" him....

Silas, you know my neighbour at number 5? Bob?

Silas · 01-15-2007, 09:03 PM

17th Angel

Dude!! lol...

Oh, so you're a woman? Can I say dudette? Nah, just kiddin. Nice to meet you!

Can you break a law if you don't know that law?

Nope! But, since all the laws of God are written upon man's heart and since God has given man an inner moral system - namely the conscience; which incidentally means "with knowledge," Con meaning "with" and science meaning "knowledge," man instintly knows that he has transgressed God's laws because his conscience testifies to it. Moreover, he knows that he has transgressed God's laws "with knowledge" that it is wrong to do so. You know this to be true when you lie, for example. No one has to say to you that you've done something wrong, you just know. Your inner moral alerm - the conscience, tells you. And so, you, like myself, and the jungle cat from the jungles of Afarica, etc., knows that we have offended God. We have zero excuse before God. OK, so this was my condensed teaching of Romans 1-3. What would be great is if you actually read Romans chapts. 1-3 and see how the Bible puts it.

Look at myself? *looks at himself* I'm not a sinner..

You can mark me as a sinner, I however do not.

If you say so.

So anyway, those who do not go by the law of god are going to go to hell unless they "accept" him....

Those who live by the law will be judged by the law. This is why "good works" will not save you and why every religion in the world who teaches morality will fail you. God does not care about your morality, because to Him they are filty rags (Isa 64:6). All have broken God's laws and all are indebted to His justice. God did NOT give the law for you to keep, but for you to see the obvious truth - namely, that you are not good enough to enter Heaven. The Law was given as a school master to lead sinners to Christ. The law is like sunlight shining on a living room table - it reveals all the dirt the naked eye does not see. Judge yourself by what God calls Good, namely, His Law and how it was fulfilled in Jesus, and see how you match up. It doesnt matter if you are good compared to Hitler or me. I am not the standard by which God judges goodness. Jesus the Christ, is. How do you rate next to perfection?

Silas, you know my neighbour at number 5? Bob?

Quahom1 · 01-15-2007, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

17th Angel

Dude!! lol...

Oh, so you're a woman? Can I say dudette? Nah, just kiddin. Nice to meet you!

Can you break a law if you don't know that law?

Nope! But, since all the laws of God are written upon man's heart and since God has given man an inner moral system - namely the conscience; which incidentally means "with knowledge," Con meaning "with" and science meaning "knowledge," man instintly knows that he has transgressed God's laws because his conscience testifies to it. Moreover, he knows that he has transgressed God's laws "with knowledge" that it is wrong to do so. You know this to be true when you lie, for example. No one has to say to you that you've done something wrong, you just know. Your inner moral alerm - the conscience, tells you. And so, you, like myself, and the jungle cat from the jungles of Afarica, etc., knows that we have offended God. We have zero excuse before God. OK, so this was my condensed teaching of Romans 1-3. What would be great is if you actually read Romans chapts. 1-3 and see how the Bible puts it.

Look at myself? *looks at himself* I'm not a sinner..

You can mark me as a sinner, I however do not.

If you say so.

So anyway, those who do not go by the law of god are going to go to hell unless they "accept" him....

Those who live by the law will be judged by the law. This is why "good works" will not save you and why every religion in the world who teaches morality will fail you. God does not care about your morality, because to Him they are filty rags (Isa 64:6). All have broken God's laws and all are indebted to His justice. God did NOT give the law for you to keep, but for you to see the obvious truth - namely, that you are not good enough to enter Heaven. The Law was given as a school master to lead sinners to Christ. The law is like sunlight shining on a living room table - it reveals all the dirt the naked eye does not see. Judge yourself by what God calls Good, namely, His Law and how it was fulfilled in Jesus, and see how you match up. It doesnt matter if you are good compared to Hitler or me. I am not the standard by which God judges goodness. Jesus the Christ, is. How do you rate next to perfection?

Silas, you know my neighbour at number 5? Bob?

What a rude man...

Quahom1 · 01-15-2007, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

lol... see you in "hell" then, Silas... Are we all but sinners, according to your god? Are we not born with sin? :\

If that day comes, and we are stood there, I would gladly eat humble pie.

And you'd best put a word in for me when we are stood there

Lol already have soldier.

Promethium · 01-15-2007, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Nope! But, since all the laws of God are written upon man's heart and since God has given man an inner moral system - namely the conscience; which incidentally means "with knowledge," Con meaning "with" and science meaning "knowledge," man instintly knows that he has transgressed God's laws because his conscience testifies to it. Moreover, he knows that he has transgressed God's laws "with knowledge" that it is wrong to do so. You know this to be true when you lie, for example. No one has to say to you that you've done something wrong, you just know. Your inner moral alerm - the conscience, tells you. And so, you, like myself, and the jungle cat from the jungles of Afarica, etc., knows that we have offended God. We have zero excuse before God. OK, so this was my condensed teaching of Romans 1-3. What would be great is if you actually read Romans chapts. 1-3 and see how the Bible puts it.

I think the existence of a conscience could be an argument against the belief that we are all inherently sinners. Another way of looking at it is that our good nature is there inside of us, potentially waiting to be cultivated by proper spiritual education through the Bible. Without the Word we would not be able to reach that inherently bestowed potential inside of us. This also takes into account the work we must put in to follow Gods word, without effort there is no assurance of safety. Knowledge is only acquired through study.
Those who live by the law will be judged by the law. This is why "good works" will not save you and why every religion in the world who teaches morality will fail you. God does not care about your morality, because to Him they are filty rags (Isa 64:6).

Another way of looking at it is that Gods laws are the standard for morality. No system could consider itself just without knowing the standard. But this does not preclude good works. If the good works are in harmony with the precepts of God, such as sincerely giving to the poor,then they are acceptable. God does not need our belief in Him. Believing in Jesus and the Bible clears our eyes and allows its followers a closer proximity to the standards of God. Without that it is much easier to go astray. Many who dont believe in the Bible have benefited from its teachings and the examples of those who follow Jesus.
Anyway I dont want to impose certain viewpoints, just thought those presented could answer the topic questions. The influence and mercy of God reaches everyone whether or not they recognize His Son, although recognizing in the end is the source of all good.

mee · 01-16-2007, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Mee,

If Eternal life is to know God and Jesus, how are you going to know Him if you're not one of the 144,000 lucky JWs who will be in Heaven?

because i am hopefully one of the OTHER SHEEP spoken of in John 10;16 they are inline with Jesus because they are welcoming Jesus as the king of Gods kingdom , revelation 7;9-10, and the other sheep are taking in the spiritual food that Jesus is giving to the faithful ones in matthew 24;45-47 we have a great hope for the future , it is a paradise hope psalm 37;29

(Psalm 37:9) For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.

(Proverbs 2:21) For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.

(Matthew 5:5) "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

17th Angel · 01-16-2007, 10:35 AM

Oh, so you're a woman? Can I say dudette? Nah, just kiddin. Nice to meet you!

Nope... Just find that funny... Dude!!!

Nope! But, since all the laws of God are written upon man's heart and since God has given man an inner moral system - namely the conscience; which incidentally means "with knowledge," Con meaning "with" and science meaning "knowledge," man instintly knows that he has transgressed God's laws because his conscience testifies to it. Moreover, he knows that he has transgressed God's laws "with knowledge" that it is wrong to do so. You know this to be true when you lie, for example. No one has to say to you that you've done something wrong, you just know. Your inner moral alerm - the conscience, tells you. And so, you, like myself, and the jungle cat from the jungles of Afarica, etc., knows that we have offended God. We have zero excuse before God. OK, so this was my condensed teaching of Romans 1-3. What would be great is if you actually read Romans chapts. 1-3 and see how the Bible puts it.

Ok so take this..... clipping and then...

"Silas, you know my neighbour at number 5? Bob?"

Oh so you don't know bob? Bob is the lord and saviour of mankind... You have to live by he ways and laws... And because you don't your going to hell my friend......... If, that statement was true lol..... How fair would that be? You live in some place where you have no chance whatsoever of knowing "bob" And it is that way for millions of people from the times of mankind, where they had no chance of getting to know god or understanding his laws... So I think, if it goes down like this that there is a creator.. Repentence and such would be an important thing on judgement day ;/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Lol already have soldier.

johnp. · 01-18-2007, 07:12 PM

Quote:

How fair would that be?

God blesses one and curses another although there is nothing to choose between them. He chose to love Jacob and hate Esau before they had been born or had done anything right or wrong. Rom 9:10-13.

He says He hardens men's heart at will and has compassion on whoever He wants to have compassion on. Rom 9:18. In this He says He is not unjust, Rom 9:14-15, but He never says He is fair.

MT 11:27 ...no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Jesus clearly teaches that no one can know the Father unless Jesus reveals the Father to them. There is an unfairness, we have no natural rights. ...He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth... Dan 4:35.

He says to some, John 10:26 ...you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
He doesn't say they are not His sheep because they don't believe but they don't believe because they have not been chosen to life. Jesus came to save His people not all people. Matt 1:21.

RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
If a person does not hear the law it is because they have been chosen to spend the rest of eternity in Hell. Faith comes only through the word of God, Rom 10:17, so those who do not hear are not among the chosen.

Those who hear the word of God are not able to decide for themselves to accept the gospel unless God the Father draws the person to Jesus and Jesus reveals His Father to that person. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.
Those the Father draws to Christ He will raise up on the last day. That is a promise from God to His Children, they can never perish regardless of circumstances. Those drawn to Jesus will live forever with God on Earth.
I believe It is because of the Father that I am in Christ Jesus... 1 Cor 1:30. paraphrased. When I prayed to Jesus it was because God the Father willed me to, for it is God who works in me to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13. paraphrased.

But by the grace of God I am what I am... 1 Cor 15:10.

These are my conclusions.

john.