What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live? - Page 3

Silas · 01-14-2007, 10:46 PM

People dont go to hell because they dont hear the gospel, rather they go there for their law breaking (sins). God will always do what is right and just and fair (Gen 18:1). If anyone is willing to know God, God will make a way for Christ to be known to them that they may believe upon the Christ and be saved. In ages past (OT times), many believed God's promise concerning the coming Messiah and their faith were counted as righteousness because His [the Messiah's] righteousness were imputed to their account. Likewise, in the NT time and still now, we believe in the promise that came, i.e., Jesus, and our faith is counted as righteousness and His perfection or righteousness is imputed/credited to our account.

All that said, I think it is important to repeat that if anyone wants to know God, God will make a way for them to hear about Christ, whether through a missionary, written words, an angel, or whatever else. We can know that God exist by Creation alone (Psa 19:1-5). Also, we can know who God is by our Conscience. God has written His laws upon our hearts and given us a moral alarm - namely, the conscience, which by the way means "with knowledge" - Con meaning "with" and science meaning "knowledge," so that when we break any of the laws He has written on our hearts, the alarm (conscience) will sound and we will break that law "with knowledge" that it is wrong to do so. If we humble ourselves and acknowledge the obvious facts that we arent as good as we claim to be or would like to be, because our conscience testifiies to that fact, that we can call out to God for help and He will save us by revealing Christ, the Savior of man, who can take away their sins and give them a new nature. Anyone who wants to be saved will be! God has made it so easy, you only need to be humble enough to admit your faults and want to give up sin. C.S. Lewis once said in his famous "liar lunatic lord" trilimma, the following:

"In a civilization like ours, I feel that every man must come to terms with the claims of Christ on his life, else he is guitly of pervading the question."

What is the question? Jesus asks everyone..."Who do you say that I am?" If you believe that He is who He claims to be - namely, Lord or all lords and God, then repent and believe in your heart and trust in Him by following Him for the rest of your life, and YOU WILL BE SAVED!!

Quahom1 · 01-15-2007, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

People dont go to hell because they dont hear the gospel, rather they go there for their law breaking (sins). God will always do what is right and just and fair (Gen 18:1).

People go to hell when God tells them to, and that is between the individual and God...

I'm certain there are many "christians" who will be meeting the hotter environment, once Jesus declares He never knew them...I believe their primary "sin" will be self-righteous pride, and arrogance.

Silas · 01-15-2007, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

People go to hell when God tells them to, and that is between the individual and God...

I'm certain there are many "christians" who will be meeting the hotter environment, once Jesus declares He never knew them...I believe their primary "sin" will be self-righteous pride, and arrogance.

I agree with what you said, even with the pride part. Pride is such a wicked sin I believe, and I deal with it in my own walk. But, I am certian that if one desires to be changed and follow after Christ and trust in what He acomplished on behalf of sinners, they are, as scriptures declear... "gone from death to life." Therefore, hell is not their destiny, as God in His amazing grace swore. It is amazing what God has done, I feel. To send His Son to be the propetation for sinners, whereby they may be justified before God and be freed from the law. Absolutely amazing!

Quahom1 · 01-15-2007, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

I agree with what you said, even with the pride part. Pride is such a wicked sin I believe, and I deal with it in my own walk. But, I am certian that if one desires to be changed and follow after Christ and trust in what He acomplished on behalf of sinners, they are, as scriptures declear... "gone from death to life." Therefore, hell is not their destiny, as God in His amazing grace swore. It is amazing what God has done, I feel. To send His Son to be the propetation for sinners, whereby they may be justified before God and be freed from the law. Absolutely amazing!

but you are not the one to judge...and that is what ticks off non christians. Christ is between HE and the individual. Not you or anyone else, He, and the individual. Paul judged no one. What he did do was mediate between opposing parties. He was an arbitor, not a judge. Does that make sense? We are arbitors...not judges...not yet.

v/r

Joshua

Silas · 01-15-2007, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

but you are not the one to judge...and that is what ticks off non christians. Christ is between HE and the individual. Not you or anyone else, He, and the individual. Paul judged no one. What he did do was mediate between opposing parties. He was an arbitor, not a judge. Does that make sense? We are arbitors...not judges.

v/r

Joshua

Makes perfect sense! But, I dont judge. Why did you say that? I only say what the Bible says - namely, "those that dont believe are already condemned." This is the same as Paul or anyone who preaches bibically. The gospel isnt therapy and isnt good news until one understands that they have fallen short of God's glory by breaking all of His laws. Until they get that fact, the gospel will always be as the Bible says, "Foolish," "Offensive" "a stumbling block," etc. When they understand this fact, i.e., the fact that they are guilty and deserving of God's Justice, the good news about Jesus becomes precious! And, only then can we sing with the ex-slave trader, John Netwon, "Amazing grace, how sweet the song that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now I'm found, was blind but now I see."

Quahom1 · 01-15-2007, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Makes perfect sense! But, I dont judge. Why did you say that? I only say what the Bible says - namely, "those that dont believe are already condemned." This is the same as Paul or anyone who preaches bibically. The gospel isnt therapy and isnt good news until one understands that they have fallen short of God's glory by breaking all of His laws. Until they get that fact, the gospel will always be as the Bible says, "Foolish," "Offensive" "a stumbling block," etc. When they understand this fact, i.e., the fact that they are guilty and deserving of God's Justice, the good news about Jesus becomes precious! And, only then can we sing with the ex-slave trader, John Netwon, "Amazing grace, how sweet the song that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now I'm found, was blind but now I see."

I'm sorry Silas. I don't live and die by the bible. It is a guide, but my life is mine. And I look to God for guidence, but I choose ultimately, my destiny. I will answer to God one day, but in the mean time I am left to my own devices, and to prayers answered or not...

As the Romans so elloquently and simply stated..."Io solo". And as the Brits expressed "May God defend" That means I am me. And God watches out for me. May I do right by God, but I do as me.

Mayhap, I will give my life to God. But so far He is content with my giving my life to mankind...and you are not my judge. And I really take offense to you thinking you are more saved than me.

Perhaps you are. But that is not your decision to make, now is it?

v/r

Joshua

Silas · 01-15-2007, 05:21 AM

Quahom

I'm sorry Silas. I don't live and die by the bible. It is a guide, but my life is mine. And I look to God for guidence, but I choose ultimately, my destiny. I will answer to God one day, but in the mean time I am left to my own devices, and to prayers answered or not...

I'm really sorry to hear that, Q! If only you knew, at least to some degree, how wicked our hearts and minds are (Jer. 17:9), you would trust the Bible and not lean on your own understanding, like Proverb 3:5 said. You have to come to understand, bro, that ultimately you're flawed like everyone else, even me. We're born in sin and shaped in iniquity, we're flawed. Our conscience and mind and heart are all tained by sin, we cannot trust ourselves. Our guide must come from higher than ourselves if we want to grow in God. I know you might not agree, but does that make sense?

As the Romans so elloquently and simply stated..."Io solo". And as the Brits expressed "May God defend" That means I am me. And God watches out for me. May I do right by God, but I do as me.

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death" (Proverb 14:12). There are certain absolute truths in the world. Everyone knows this, yet not all admit it lest they have to conform to these immutable truths. You hear some people say "this is right for me" and yet others say "you're wrong, that is immoral and therefore we should not do it." Ultimately, bro., there must be something higher than us - a higher law to govern us or else we'd be like the example I gave. Some people will do certian things and say it is good and yet others will condemn that very thing as immoral and there will not be peace between the two groups. There must be a higher law for us to be govern by if we are to have peace. The Bible offers truth and claims to be God's words to give us light on how to live in every arena in life. Have you ever studied the Bible?

Mayhap, I will give my life to God. But so far He is content with my giving my life to mankind...and you are not my judge. And I really take offense to you thinking you are more saved than me.

Dont take offensive to anything I say because I only say what I say in hopes that God uses it to His glory in saving people. Dont think that I am self-righteous, because I am not. I wrestle with my own sins as a young man daily. Between my lusting and proud heart alone, I am left humbled, knowing that its ONLY by God's grace I am what I am. I only look to share certain truths with others in the hopes that they become inspired to "test" it out, for lack of better words. I want to ask you a question, Joshua. Please dont take offense. How do you know you are saved?

Perhaps you are. But that is not your decision to make, now is it?

It is the very hard job of every Christian to tell the lost about their sins and then reveal the good news of Christ if they are humbled by the truth of their sins, lest we throw perls to swine. Again, the gospel isnt therpy and it is only good news after we have come to realize our guilt and worthiness of God's wrath. Only then does Jesus become precious to Him and we desiere to live and die for Him. If anyone comes to Christ without repentance and faith, they remaind dead in sins and is lost. These are the sort you mentioned earlier...those that hear Jesus' dreadful words, "Depart from me you worker of evil, I never knew you!"

Quahom1 · 01-15-2007, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Quahom

I'm really sorry to hear that, Q! If only you knew, at least to some degree, how wicked our hearts and minds are (Jer. 17:9), you would trust the Bible and not lean on your own understanding, like Proverb 3:5 said. You have to come to understand, bro, that ultimately you're flawed like everyone else, even me. We're born in sin and shaped in iniquity, we're flawed. Our conscience and mind and heart are all tained by sin, we cannot trust ourselves. Our guide must come from higher than ourselves if we want to grow in God. I know you might not agree, but does that make sense?

I beg your damn pardon. You have no idea who I am, or where I've been, or what I have seen. You know nothing about me. Take your wickedness, hell fire and crap, and stuff it sir. I'll deal with God in my own fashion, and He will deal with me. You have no say on the matter (thank God). One should worry about the board in one's own eye...preacher...

Silas · 01-15-2007, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I beg your damn pardon. You have no idea who I am, or where I've been, or what I have seen. You know nothing about me. Take your wickedness, hell fire and crap, and stuff it sir. I'll deal with God in my own fashion, and He will deal with me. You have no say on the matter (thank God). One should worry about the board in one's own eye...preacher...

Its been said time and agian that when a spiritually dead man hears of his sin, he is quickly offended and in anger is quick to both defend and justify himself. Yet, when the spiritually awaken man hears of his sin, he is driven to tears and grows in a deeper appriciate for God's Grace. I'm sorry you felt offended by what I said, Q. I honestly didnt mean to offend you! I'll drop it.

Quahom1 · 01-15-2007, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Its been said time and agian that when a spiritually dead man hears of his sin, he is quickly offended and in anger is quick to both defend and justify himself. Yet, when the spiritually awaken man hears of his sin, he is driven to tears and grows in a deeper appriciate for God's Grace. I'm sorry you felt offended by what I said, Q. I honestly didnt mean to offend you! I'll drop it.

It is also said that an innocent man will fight for his innocence until the cows come home. He will not give his accuser an in for one second.
And he will cry the tears of the frustrated. You did mean to offend. I will not give in to your "argument". You don't know me, nore do you know many people. You assume all are dead to God, except for you of course. I feel sorry for you.

Silas · 01-15-2007, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It is also said that an innocent man will fight for his innocence until the cows come home. He will not give his accuser an in for one second. And he will cry the tears of the frustrated. You did mean to offend. I will not give in to your "argument". You don't know me, nore do you know many people. You assume all are dead to God, except for you of course. I feel sorry for you.

Yes, I do believe all are dead in sin until God saves them. No, I dont condemn you or meant to offend you, and my conscience is clear on that matter. Hey listen, I dont have to know you or what you went through to tell you the truth about God's holiness. There are many who lived hard and rough and sad lives, that will go to hell. Please make no mistake about it, you will not earn a ticked to Heaven because your life here was hard or rough or "hellish." You will ONLY go to Heaven if you repent and trust in Christ. If you dont do that, the Bible says you are already condemned. Now again, I am not saying that you arent born again, I surely dont know!

But, I am suggesting that you make your calling and election sure by examining yourself with scripture and not assume God is with you because you "feel" He is due to whatever you went through. God gave us His word for a reason. Please dont assume you are with God or His child, but seek to be sure and find out. If not, then repent and trust in Jesus, and you will be His child. If you are, praise God and thank Him for His grace. Again, this isnt meant to offend (though Im sure you will think so), but it is meant to encourage you to read God's words.

I am hopefull that God allowed this conversation for a reason and I pray that what I say gets you angry enough to where you actually consider my words and call out to God in prayer that He may reveal if I am wicked in my motives or sincere. Before I sign off let me just say this one thing: You're like me - not innocent. We're all worthy of God's wrath, J. Dont cry in frustration or dont try to prove your innocence because you're not innocent. Be humble before God and admit your guilt and He will reveal truth to you.

God Bless,

Silas

mee · 01-15-2007, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herriot

Yes, but doesn't answer my question - what about the people tat haven't heard???

i can only speak for myself , but if we listen to what
Jesus said in John 17;3 our questions be come answered.
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God,(Jehovah) and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ John 17;3 Jesus spoke of a faithful class of people who were fed by him matthew 45-47 and this is the channel to be listening in to, the stream of time we are in right now is the time spoken of in Daniel 12;4
"And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.".......................... now that knowledge is abundant the faithful are dishing out lots of good spiritual food and it is right inline with the bible .

Silas · 01-15-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

i can only speak for myself , but if we listen to what
Jesus said in John 17;3 our questions be come answered.
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God,(Jehovah) and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ John 17;3 Jesus spoke of a faithful class of people who were fed by him matthew 45-47 and this is the channel to be listening in to, the stream of time we are in right now is the time spoken of in Daniel 12;4
"And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.".......................... now that knowledge is abundant the faithful are dishing out lots of good spiritual food and it is right inline with the bible .

Mee,

If Eternal life is to know God and Jesus, how are you going to know Him if you're not one of the 144,000 lucky JWs who will be in Heaven?

17th Angel · 01-15-2007, 02:11 PM

What I learnt while being amungst the sheep was that those who did not have a chance or do not get the chance, or those who -think- they are correctly worshipping god but are not, will get the chance to do the "correct thing" at judgement day.

Quahom1 · 01-15-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Yes, I do believe all are dead in sin until God saves them. No, I dont condemn you or meant to offend you, and my conscience is clear on that matter. Hey listen, I dont have to know you or what you went through to tell you the truth about God's holiness. There are many who lived hard and rough and sad lives, that will go to hell. Please make no mistake about it, you will not earn a ticked to Heaven because your life here was hard or rough or "hellish." You will ONLY go to Heaven if you repent and trust in Christ. If you dont do that, the Bible says you are already condemned. Now again, I am not saying that you arent born again, I surely dont know!

But, I am suggesting that you make your calling and election sure by examining yourself with scripture and not assume God is with you because you "feel" He is due to whatever you went through. God gave us His word for a reason. Please dont assume you are with God or His child, but seek to be sure and find out. If not, then repent and trust in Jesus, and you will be His child. If you are, praise God and thank Him for His grace. Again, this isnt meant to offend (though Im sure you will think so), but it is meant to encourage you to read God's words.

I am hopefull that God allowed this conversation for a reason and I pray that what I say gets you angry enough to where you actually consider my words and call out to God in prayer that He may reveal if I am wicked in my motives or sincere. Before I sign off let me just say this one thing: You're like me - not innocent. We're all worthy of God's wrath, J. Dont cry in frustration or dont try to prove your innocence because you're not innocent. Be humble before God and admit your guilt and He will reveal truth to you.

God Bless,

Silas

I am the captain/centurian of my fate...like Jesus I have those I command, just like I am commanded...how much humbler need I be?