Was Abraham insane?

[post-abrahamic]

I fully agree. If we continue to never question the morality of these ancients who gave us our Abrahamic religious traditions and also, never forget, the history of Abrahamic religionists in action, then we will never learn to go past these ancient minds to arrive at what God's been pointing us towards all along--humanity, i.e., becoming truly humane beings.

[paul]

Originally Posted by Caimanson

That reminds that there is a very thin line between genuine faith and self deception. Think of those religious fanatics that refused medical treatment for their children believing that god would heal. Those children are now dead.

These are very very few, and as you say are fanatics.
It's not religion that causes fanatics, i know of many protestors, for animals rights even human rights.
There was this group of animal rights who even went as far as to dig up the body of someones relative who was involved in testing on animals.
I know some religious people can be to to an extent fanatic in their beleifs.
But so are protestors, and even any movement.
Whether humanists, human rights, animals rights.

I think there is a problem with religious followers, in an ignorance of their religion, and self interperatation.
I can only speak of the Christian religion, for it is the only one i have a little knowledge of.
But what i understand is it leads man in love and righteousness, and healing and inner peace.

Self interperatation is to put our ideas onto things and the whole world does this with everything.
But true religion it interperates itself, and proves itself, it awakens our hearts and minds, it unfolds spiritual mysteries, it nourishes the hunger of the soul.

There are men and women throughout history, whom miracles have been performed through, whom have reached the heights of pure love.
We have to have the humility to recognize there are greater people than us who have walked this earth, who have had greater knowledge and lived by greater love.

Todays world is self evident, although everyone are all to eager to shout their own knowledge.
This world to a great extent lacks true spiritual knowledge, fails to live by deep love.
Passes the buck, the responsibilty from our own selves.

We can all find God, and He is found when the very source of love and righteousness is sought.
This love takes devotion, worship, to be raised to the height as our God, and faith in Him as the cure, the meaning, the very nourishment of life for all.

Fair enough if abraham wasn't crazy. Still makes me fear how these kind of stories are potentially interpreted, so that religious devotion is put before common sense and respect for human beings.

You talk of common sense use yours.
You can't place fanaticsim on religion.
What you see from biblical stories and Christian history, is people have tried medical treatment for their children, spent all their money on medical bills and after have been miraculously healed.

But what you talk of are very few, that it cannot be attributed to religion, only in a false self interperating understanding.

There are many cults, not based on Abrahamic literature.

You talk of self deception, you only have to look at the world.

What we find is the norm of the world is full of self deception.
And in many cases it has taken religion to wake people up.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Caimanson

That reminds that there is a very thin line between genuine faith and self deception. Think of those religious fanatics that refused medical treatment for their children believing that god would heal. Those children are now dead.

Fair enough if abraham wasn't crazy. Still makes me fear how these kind of stories are potentially interpreted, so that religious devotion is put before common sense and respect for human beings.

Today, if you wanted your son healed of an illness, you either take him to a doctor, specialist or to the hospital.

Of course, it seems like a cop out for religious people, often, to not try and believe in miracles as a "possibility" in the near or immediate future, either through faith or some religious leader -- that maybe, just around the corner there's some guru who can perform miracles -- or maybe you could be a guru yourself?

The reality is, we can't just summon God out of the blue to just perform some miraculous event just to prove that we are "one of God's people," that we have special favour.

That reality is boring. We want to be heroes of some grand story, the ones to witness the great monumentally miraculous events, just to prove to ourselves and others that we are God's people, because we don't want someone else taking that status......or maybe we're jealous, or feel we're missing out......on that "God's people" status.

One of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not covet." Do not desire your neighbour's house, wife, flock of sheep or donkeys.

So when someone refuses medical treatment that is freely and legally available, they are actually breaking one of the Ten Commandments -- they are covetting the notion (and status) of being one of the faithful. It is when we think we can be like the people in the Tanakh/OT, people of great faith who never stopped believing and trusting that God would somehow heal a loved one. We think that refusal of medical treatment is what makes us holy -- yes it's a "holier than thou" concept.

But they forget that this is a time when medical technology was insufficient and inadequate. There was nothing anyone could do, except if a miracle happened. But today, the technology is there. There is an alternative.

Asking for a miracle is supposed to be a last resort.....it should not be done for entertainment purposes.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by post-abrahamic

I fully agree. If we continue to never question the morality of these ancients who gave us our Abrahamic religious traditions and also, never forget, the history of Abrahamic religionists in action, then we will never learn to go past these ancient minds to arrive at what God's been pointing us towards all along--humanity, i.e., becoming truly humane beings.

Hi post-abrahamic,

I don't think it would be correct to assume it hasn't been questioned. I would of course, not encourage such acts in 21st century. But this event, I believe should be judged from the reality Abraham was in at the time, not the "reality" we have today. And yes, once again, I see reality as subjective. The universe we live in is not one big reality, but a trillion little ones, with each individual living in their own reality.

I would also be reluctant to classify behaviours as "psychotic" just because they are not what we would normally do in 21st-century society. As people living in 21st-century society we make rules concerning what is "normal" or "abnormal." Anything "abnormal" is seen as "corrupt" or "diseased" and not functioning normally. A mind is seen as not functioning normally if it doesn't conform to the rules we make, in the 21st-century, of what constitutes a mindset that is normal.

However, the word "psychotic" describes a mind that is no longer functioning as a human mind should function, and has nothing to do with what a culture defines as "normal." The human mind, when functioning normally, is supposed to be able to reason rationally. In that state it is able to see and appreciate all of the possibilities and consequences of actions and behaviour. A rational mind is often an open mind. When we're psychotic, the ability to think rationally and open-mindedly has been severely damaged by something -- there is somehow something that serves to restrict or confine one's thoughts, to the point where we can't fully appreciate the meaning of life and what is happening around us.

I don't believe that behaviours and actions by themselves can be judged right away as "psychotic." I believe you can only determine that after you have spoken to that person. That's because you have to find out whether or not they're thinking rationally. Are they open minded? Stubborn? Can they justify their actions? Do they fully appreciate the meaning of life, what is happening around them what they are doing? What words do they use?

Rationality has to do with sophistication. Two countries, A and B, go to war. Any diplomacy? Any rules of engagement? Declaration of war? No, none. They just fight. Another pair of countries, C and D, go to war. There is a diplomatic exchange, ideology, politics and rules of engagement are discussed. The two countries cannot agree and declare war. There is violence in both cases. C and D were obviously more rational even though in the end they chose violence. Violence does not equal psychosis and irrationality. The violence itself was rationalised and justified.

I reckon if Abraham had a good explanation and justification for what he did, and if he could demonstrate that he was reasonable and rational-minded then I think it would also be reasonable to assume he wasn't psychotic.

With regards to what paul said:

I think paul has a point in what he said before, about Abraham having been promised that his son would be the father of a great nation, and this being a test of Abraham's trust.

With regards to the relationship Abraham had with God, this wasn't part of an established religious practice. Yes, it was for other religions, but between Abraham and God this was a very personal request.

It would normally have been a religious ritual, but this wasn't a ritual. It was not something to be "practiced." It was a test, a personal request designed to determine whether Abraham trusted God.

I think it's also important to note that Isaac wasn't born naturally. He was born miraculously. Under normal circumstances, Isaac would not have been born. If Isaac had been born naturally, Abraham would have been fully responsible for Isaac's ultimate destiny and God would not have had any right to request that he be "sacrificed."

But Isaac was a gift from God. Although Isaac belonged to Abraham, having been given to him by God, it was God's gift to Abraham. Isaac was God's way of honouring the relationship he had with Abraham. It was God's responsibility to look after his gift, Isaac, to Abraham. Isaac was both Abraham's and God's responsibility. No Isaac, no relationship.

This was personal; a person's trust was being tested. God was being very sentimental.

[Caimanson]

Originally Posted by paul

Todays world is self evident, although everyone are all to eager to shout their own knowledge.
This world to a great extent lacks true spiritual knowledge, fails to live by deep love.
Passes the buck, the responsibilty from our own selves.

We can all find God, and He is found when the very source of love and righteousness is sought.
This love takes devotion, worship, to be raised to the height as our God, and faith in Him as the cure, the meaning, the very nourishment of life for all.

You talk of common sense use yours.
You can't place fanaticsim on religion.
What you see from biblical stories and Christian history, is people have tried medical treatment for their children, spent all their money on medical bills and after have been miraculously healed.

But what you talk of are very few, that it cannot be attributed to religion, only in a false self interperating understanding.

There are many cults, not based on Abrahamic literature.

You talk of self deception, you only have to look at the world.

What we find is the norm of the world is full of self deception.
And in many cases it has taken religion to wake people up.

Paul,

What I am trying to say, is that it can be difficult to tell between the voice of god and our ego.
I follow my ego too often, unenlightened perhaps, but I can't help it.
But it becomes very dangerous when I confuse my ego with the voice of god, because it adds an undeserved infallibility and too much importance to the self-serving utterings of a flawed ego.
It doesn't have to be about killing a child, there are many subtle ways in which you can hurt yourself and others.

Your point about the illusion of this world is a very valid one, perhaps the most difficult one to tackle.

[paul]

Originally Posted by Caimanson

Paul,

What I am trying to say, is that it can be difficult to tell between the voice of god and our ego.
I follow my ego too often, unenlightened perhaps, but I can't help it.
But it becomes very dangerous when I confuse my ego with the voice of god, because it adds an undeserved infallibility and too much importance to the self-serving utterings of a flawed ego.
It doesn't have to be about killing a child, there are many subtle ways in which you can hurt yourself and others.

Your point about the illusion of this world is a very valid one, perhaps the most difficult one to tackle.

I totally agree with you.

I just think people are all too quick to criticise religion today.
Trying to find fault, and in doing so push away it's benefits.

And the sad thing, i think it holds the cure to all our problems, but to listen to the voice of God, is one thing, to follow it yet another.

What i can say in truth is help this God forsaking world Lord, we truly need you.

What can we say about the voice of God and our egos?

I find the witness of Saints can be a very inspiring one.
As with the bible sometimes there are things we don't understand, and i think it's best to put them aside, devour what we can at the time, and suprisingly they become evident at a later time when we're not trying so hard to understand.

I think when we try hard to understand things we are not ready to understand is when we force a false interperatation.

I think the voice of God, is so humbling, we have to humble ourselves to truly hear it, in that may be how we distinguish it from our ego.

We have to examine ourselves not others.
I think when we realize our own faults and weaknesses we can have more understanding with others.

But not always have we been in the same positions as others, but their testimonies can touch our hearts for in hearing them, and identifying with them we can have greater compassion and even understanding.

But i think even there can lay a danger for us, for we can realize our human weaknesses and say we're only human and give up the battle.

We are human and not without sin, but without prayer, and continually relying on our God we can all too easily sink under the power of sin.

There is a battle to be fought, and it's daily, continously, and we have to humbly submit to our God, to bring realization to our minds, love to our hearts, and the strength to walk in it.

Maybe the self deception is much to do with our own pride/ego.
I find religion, can be about self realization.
If we exalt ourselves to know all, to be wise, to be good and have little faults we deceive our own selves and also those who we would lead astray in our pride.

Saint John Chrysostom said of our need to pray:
to prevail with Him; to be made intimate with Him, by continuance in supplication; to be humbled; to be reminded of thy sins.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by paul

I just think people are all too quick to criticise religion today. Trying to find fault, and in doing so push away it's benefits.

And the sad thing, i think it holds the cure to all our problems, but to listen to the voice of God, is one thing, to follow it yet another.

Very well said Paul. The challenge is not knowing our scripture, it is living that scripture in our daily lives.

[paul]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Very well said Paul. The challenge is not knowing our scripture, it is living that scripture in our daily lives.

Amen.

It is living the love, the scripture is there to guide us in.

[omner]

I think one of the things that is hard for people of faith to accept is that today we are by and large much better people than the people of legend in whichever scripture we may accept as our own. I don't see Abraham as insane by the standards of his time but he would be considered insane today. He was living in a world in which human sacrifice occurred frequently. God demanded he sacrifice because that was what was a test of faith for many of the other gods of the time. But in stopping Abraham and allowing the sacrifice of an animal instead, there was a new standard of morality set -- human sacrifice is not required by _this_ God, but rather the devotion to God to do whatever is asked.

Today many of the things that were introduced as advances in morals, diet, etc, in biblical times, are either accepted as commonplace, or something we in modern societies have completely gone past in social and ethical development. I think a lot of it is just that we are so much better educated today, and we communicate much more with a wider sphere of our neighbors from around the world and have become more tolerant due to this. Not all the world I know, but just by virtue of being literate and on the internet we are more educated and socially aware than a lot of other people in the world.

I would guess a lot of people will disagree with me on this but it's what I think. Actually probably not my original idea, I remember a rabbi saying much the same on a PBS documentary I saw many years ago -- that we are just much better people today than the people of biblical times, etc.

[Cyris Ali]

In order for Abraham to be considered insane, peace be upon him, one would have to exclude God from the equation, thereby neutralizing the point of the story entirely.

One must also consider that people sacrifice sons and daughters every day to bloody wars in the name of God. Give birth to them, knowing full well that this may be their fate one day. And they do it willingly. Without question.

Is this insane? Is this cruel and abusive?
Or is this just ...life in the big city?

[bob x]

How do you know that God was even IN the equation? That's the whole question. Abraham thought the voice in his head was God, but so do lots of people who hear lots of kinds of voices in their heads. Pathless suggests that the test for whether the voice really has anything to do with God is the nature of what the voice is suggesting: a voice saying "Kill your child!" sounds like the same kind of voice that told Berkowitz (for non-Americans: a famous serial killer nicknamed "Son of Sam") to kill people on the street.

[Cyris Ali]

Originally Posted by bob x

How do you know that God was even IN the equation?

Because that is the story, Bob.

There is an allegory here and, whether or not it is a historically factual allegory is of no consequence. You must either read it like that or simply close the book and move on to a more viable premise for bashing Abrahamic faith... like, for instance, that he never existed anyway.

And if he didn't... then the story is entirely allegorical all the same.

[bob x]

I am not one of those who thinks the stories are just made up: I assume rather that there actually was a person named Abraham, and that while the texts may not always give accurate biographical data, that actual events are reflected in them; and I am more interested in what actually happened than in what "the story" now says.

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Cyris Ali

Because that is the story, Bob.

There is an allegory here and, whether or not it is a historically factual allegory is of no consequence. You must either read it like that or simply close the book and move on to a more viable premise for bashing Abrahamic faith... like, for instance, that he never existed anyway.

And if he didn't... then the story is entirely allegorical all the same.

It is an allegory- the son he was to sacrifice was his Double.

-Br.Bruce

[Cyris Ali]

Originally Posted by bob x

....I am more interested in what actually happened than in what "the story" now says.

I guess I see a very fine line between what is sanity and what is not.
Everything we perceive is based on some other perception ...like dominoes it goes, until we find this is all a mass hallucination. Literally.

Even "crazy" peoples' thoughts can be made sense of and unwound to the point where they are no longer so far out of harmony with the rest of the world that they begin to see things in way which is more advantageous to what we call a normal life or, at least, one that is more conducive to a good night's sleep in a safe neighborhood.

Every culture can trace out, through its roots, some sort of human sacrifice ritual.. outright cannibalism even.

If Abraham was crazy.. then we all are. And especially now... considering the amount of children which are sacrificed each day to some bloody crusade.

For me, that is the allegory.
And, ultimately, it wasn't what God wanted.. much less what Abraham probably wanted.