War and Pieces

[Dor]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I agree here too, and I can because the last part of the quote has been omitted. G-d didn't forsake Judah, He set her aside, and in the same prophecy He also said He would take her back one day. I really need to look it up, but I'm strapped for time just now.

I agree with this also in a way.
No offence to anyone but I belief he has plans for Israel soon. That is one reason I dont jive with Mee and his 144,000 JWs.
I belief the 2 witness and the 144,000 all have to do with literal Israel in times to come.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dor!

Originally Posted by Dor

He wants us to want to be with him. Yes billions decide they don't need or want him. It is a choice each individual person makes. God will not send me to hell, I have to do that myself.

I couldn't agree with you more, up until the part here about billions deciding they don't need or want G-d. I disagree. No mother wants evil for her child. Nor does any father worth the title. G-d placed it in and on our hearts to seek Him and all things good.

The example that comes quickly to mind is the Good Samaritan. Now, if one looks closely at the story, the Samaritans were considered doomed. The Jews had nothing to do with them. Jesus, in accord with tradition, should have had nothing to do with them. They were an outcast remnant of the Northern tribes. They believed in the Jewish G-d, and worshipped Him as best they could under the circumstances. They had no Temple, and they were not permitted to enter the Temple complex. All the more amazing, that Christ should call out the works of such a lowly and forlorn, and traditionally judged as doomed, people.

So, what difference is there between a Christian helping a person in dire need of assistance, and a Muslim helping a person in dire need of assistance? Indeed, what difference with anybody helping a person in dire need of assistance? Brownie points? I don't think it works quite like that. But that a person is willing to go out of their way to assist another person in dire need, is evidence of the Spirit of G-d moving in that person's life! Why would G-d move in the life of a damned person? Short answer, He won't. But He moves in the lives of non-Christians every day and in every way just as He does with Christians.

And the dead were *judged according to their works*, by the things which were written in the books...And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:11-14)

It is not up to men to decide if anyone that has honestly never heard the Gospel(getting harder to believe everyday) if they have done enough good works to make up for the sins everyone commits. The Bible actually says in it that it is not possible to do, that none of us can come to the Father through our actions.

It is not about doing good to overcome evil, that is a red-herring I see thrown out there all the time. It is about doing good of the pure reason of doing good. We all fall short, we all sin. This is not an excuse, or a permission. It is however, a fact. Solomon in Ecclesiastes tells us to keep our sins to a minimum, and not to commit gross sins at all. And to enjoy the fruit of our labor (works!), for that is our portion in this life. Doing good because the pure Spirit of G-d moves in us is enough in itself.

I notice one thing from my reading the Bible. God does not talk much about the middle ground of things. It is extremes Life or Death..Hot or Cold...Heaven or Hell...God or Satan....
"... I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days ..." (Deuteronomy 30:19)

No middle ground mentioned no barely getting by, no place where things are just ok, no lukewarm allowed!
[/size]

I can see where one gets this impression. I've always seen the teachings of Christ as walking a middle ground, avoiding extremes. Not too pious, not too sinful. Not too gluttonous, not anorexic. Not to be overly wise, and not to be foolish. I always viewed the underlying theme of the Bible as common sense. Not too extreme either way. This is not fence sitting, this is peacemaking. This is not bruising a blade of grass where you tread (a lesson I have yet to learn).

Lukewarm, is indifferent, is apathetic, is "could care less." Peacemaking is a very active choice. Sometimes it involves knocking upside a head or two...thankfully not often.

[wil]

Namaste all and 123 for your thoughts and comments.

As you all are aware I am not one to 'hold my tongue' and have caused enough consternation with it.

Your point is entirely valid in my book, and I believe anyone who takes a moment to put down what they've been indoctrinated with and either think for themselves or commune with spirit on this subject would agree it just doesn't make sense. Your 3/4 number is way low in my book...if we are speaking of Christians v. the world for all time I would think the number is around 90%. And to carry it out further as you indicated if we were to calculate this by the denominations that feel only they have the true answer we must look at between 98-99.999% are toast as it were.

I think this is exactly the exploration that leads to a higher understanding of the scriptures, of all holy books, of G-d, of Jesus, and oneself. And I think it extemely valuable.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by wil

Your point is entirely valid in my book, and I believe anyone who takes a moment to put down what they've been indoctrinated with and either think for themselves or commune with spirit on this subject would agree it just doesn't make sense.

Wow if I said something like that it would earn me the intolerant fundamentalist label.....wait it has already.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I can see where one gets this impression. I've always seen the teachings of Christ as walking a middle ground, avoiding extremes. Not too pious, not too sinful. Not too gluttonous, not anorexic. Not to be overly wise, and not to be foolish. I always viewed the underlying theme of the Bible as common sense. Not too extreme either way. This is not fence sitting, this is peacemaking. This is not bruising a blade of grass where you tread (a lesson I have yet to learn).

Lukewarm, is indifferent, is apathetic, is "could care less." Peacemaking is a very active choice. Sometimes it involves knocking upside a head or two...thankfully not often.

Good points Juan. I consider myself passionate in my moderation.

luna

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dor!

Originally Posted by Dor

I agree with this also in a way.
No offence to anyone but I belief he has plans for Israel soon. That is one reason I dont jive with Mee and his 144,000 JWs.
I belief the 2 witness and the 144,000 all have to do with literal Israel in times to come.

I am in agreement with you here, by what I understand of Revelations, except that I count no more than 36,000 "Jews." Don't know for sure where the rest are coming from, but I don't see them coming from that source, not if the words are true (and I believe they are). Admittedly, Revelations is a very difficult book to dissect and digest. Few other books in the Bible are so oblique.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

War and Pieces

With apologies straight up to Tolstoy, or whoever it was that wrote that huge bound excuse for a doorstop.

I jest of course, I suspect there may actually be someone, somewhere, sometime, that actually read it through, cover to cover. I seriously wonder if they are a part of any living generation, but beyond being an anachronism for "wordy" and the Jeopardy answer for "the longest book ever written"…(what is War and Peace), the book really has no meaning to me. It isn't on my short list of must reads, it isn't even on my long list of must reads. But it's a classic, or so "they" tell me…*sigh*…

Um, I uh read War and Peace, in Russian. Well, I really wanted to get inside the Russian mind of the times in order to learn the language. (it took me four years).

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Um, I uh read War and Peace, in Russian. Well, I really wanted to get inside the Russian mind of the times in order to learn the language. (it took me four years).

Q... you have a bit of masochism in you....Did you get get anything out of it? hehe

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Q... you have a bit of masochism in you....Did you get get anything out of it? hehe

An education in colloqueal Russian...

[China Cat Sunflower]

I like your OP Juan. Terrence really got you fired up didn't he? This is what, three, maybe four really excellent posts from you because an intollerant fundie came along and forced you to stand up and say something. I'd say he was a tremendous blessing to us all! God working in mysterious ways, again! Then again, I may be reading this entirely wrong.

Chris

[InLove]

Interesting thread, juan.

I kept trying to read that book, but I don't think I ever did finish. Maybe I should have tried the Russian version.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Now, I can't speak directly of Islam, but I do understand there is a close historic connection regarding not only Ishmael, but also the wife of Moses, the daughter of Jethro. (OH, please forgive this humble servant, her name escapes me just now)

Zipporah? One of the seven daughters of Jethro, the Midianite priest?

And the poignant accounts of both Abraham and Isaac, and of Hagar and Ishmael have always left me wondering about some of the same things you have brought up here.

InPeace,
InLove

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, wil!

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste all and 123 for your thoughts and comments.

I think this is exactly the exploration that leads to a higher understanding of the scriptures, of all holy books, of G-d, of Jesus, and oneself. And I think it extemely valuable.

Thank you for your kind words.

Higher understanding is probably a noble quest in itself, but it really hasn't factored into my search.

Something tells me that there is something wrong in holding hatred, especially undeserved hatred, in our hearts. It is one thing to have a bias, an unknown or unrecognized bias (even prejudice) without ill intent. This in itself creates enough problems and misunderstandings. But the kind of undeserved biased hatred that festers and smolders...that is the fuel that feeds murder and war. That hatred, that if anything, could be said to be hell on earth. And if that hatred is not of G-d, how do we overcome it?

I have said it before, "can't we all just get along" is impractical, *but* it is a noble aspiration. Humanity will never accomplish peace by alone, but that is no excuse not to try. We (collective sense) are far too different in our ideologies to expect total acceptance of each other, and the idea of forcing everyone into the same box only aggravates the problem. (Want Armageddon, figuratively? try forcing that on the whole world at once...)

Tolerance is tricky, tolerance is tough. It means having to look beyond what makes one uncomfortable, because others find it comfortable. Not that I agree, if I agreed I most likely would participate. Because I disagree, I lead my life in a manner different than another might. And that's OK. I don't answer to this other person for my actions, I answer to G-d. The other person does not answer to me for their actions, they answer to G-d. G-d will sort to whole mess out in the end, of that I am most certain. I can share my beliefs with others, although to be fair I should allow them to share their beliefs with me. It is possible I might learn a thing or two. Sharing is not the same as insisting, judging, demanding. What is shared is shared with the understanding it might not be accepted. That's OK. I plant seeds. No matter how much I water, no matter how much I prune, no matter how much I weed, no matter how much I fertilize...the sprouting and growing of the seed is up to G-d. I cannot force a seed to grow, and push come to shove G-d can do the job just fine without me. Some seeds are just not meant to grow.

I see CR as a vanguard of sorts. I hear a lot of people, of many stripes and persuasions, lamenting how the world just can't seem to get along. Of course, they aren't very quick to try to stand in the front ranks and try, either. They are talkers, not doers. Then there are those who paint rosy eyed scenarios of harmonic balances and how the world is growing so lovey-dovey...who then lambast anybody who doesn't view the world quite the same as they do as narrow minded fundamentalist bigots. Ironic...

I want CR to be in the front ranks, leading the charge, showing the world that peaceful interaction between faiths is not a pipe-dream, not a fool's hope, that it can be done. That we know because we are DOING. China cat has a basic point about the coffee clutch, even if I disagree in the details. The world simply will never be a coffee clutch. There's too many soda drinkers, too many tea drinkers, and too many that insist water is the *only* drink. Not counting those that stagger in under the influence of even harder drink...

How do we get all of these to play nice long enough to realize they can actually get along peaceably with each other? That we can all learn from each other. That we are all actually brothers and sisters (you know, that PC "one race, the human race" thing), and that we can love one another, and it is alright because that might just be what G-d had in mind to begin with...

I'm ranting now, let me step off of my soap box...

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Um, I uh read War and Peace, in Russian. Well, I really wanted to get inside the Russian mind of the times in order to learn the language. (it took me four years).

Oh no! Q! Say it isn't so.... and I had such high hopes for you!

LOL, I am impressed. That is quite an achievement.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I like your OP Juan.

Thanks, that means a lot.

Terrence really got you fired up didn't he? This is what, three, maybe four really excellent posts from you because an intollerant fundie came along and forced you to stand up and say something. I'd say he was a tremendous blessing to us all! God working in mysterious ways, again! Then again, I may be reading this entirely wrong.

Probably a lot more than three or four at this point. I take 'em all on. Intolerant fundies are not just mainstream conservatives...and they are not just Christians either.

Ahh, I probably shouldn't talk like that, it gives the wrong impression and encourages precisely what I would like to avoid. I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't back down if a fight of intolerance is offered, which is a weakness of mine I struggle with. I would far better prefer it wasn't necessary...what can one do if someone doesn't want to play nice? I don't want to chaperone, we're all adults. But I'm not above playing bouncer when the need requires. Brian would prefer the "need" not be a strict one, and I find myself in agreement, but there is a line. One can only tolerate a certain amount of intolerance, before the disruption disturbs the peace of the community...(now there's a devil for ya!)

I probably should take this moment to note, I am impressed with how far you have come along...when you first arrived you were having fun tipping apple carts. You are still capable of tipping apple carts, but you also show you know how to play nice, and for all it's worth I am grateful you do choose to play nice much more of late. Thanks.

BTW, how is Kathe? I am surprized she is not around here more, I miss her input. FWIW.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, InLove!

Originally Posted by InLove

Interesting thread, juan.

Zipporah? One of the seven daughters of Jethro, the Midianite priest?

And the poignant accounts of both Abraham and Isaac, and of Hagar and Ishmael have always left me wondering about some of the same things you have brought up here.

Thanks, both for the compliment and the reminder!