Vegetarianism

[Tao_Equus]

In addition to girls hitting puberty earlier it must be noted that sperm counts in men are also falling, probably due to exactly the same cause.

TE

[suanni]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

In addition to girls hitting puberty earlier it must be noted that sperm counts in men are also falling, probably due to exactly the same cause.

TE

And when girls hit puberty earlier, menopause comes quicker, thus reducing women to old age quicker, and all the problems post menopausal women experience!

[aburaees]

Please hear me out...

I sometimes see the phrase "meat is murder" when I'm out, and in my personal opinion I find it to be an ignorant and insulting thing to say.

What I would like to know is how would humans living in the Northern Hemisphere have survived the ice-age if they hadn't had a good supply of meat?

Think about it, your hardly going to find crops and vegetables in Siberian tundra when it is covered in glaciers.

And also, the opinion that "meat is murder" is a total rejection of the Innuit way of life.

Can you imagine telling an Innuit person that they shouldn't eat meat? They'd have to move way South to be able to live on a meat-free diet.

The only thing that makes it easier now is technology, but if we weren't able to ship crops/cereals/vegetables around the world some people would have no choice but to eat meat.

Also desert nomads, travel great distances before they can find suitable vegetarian foods. Out of neccessity they must slaughter a sheep or a goat along the way.

The only other option is to reject their way of life and move to a country where crops/vegetables are available.

If we all did that we'd be overcrowded, and we might have to fight eachother for a piece of land.

Does anyone understand where I'm coming from?

.

[wil]

Funny I searched the whole thread to find the word murder and only found it referenced in the last post.

Although one who tells their child that their painting, or idea, or joke, or writing is awful, should consider the commandment 'thou shall not murder' and how it relates to creativity, enthusiasm, and childhood development.

So I guess I for one, although I don't use your phrase, do not either have your animosity toward it.

mur·der v. tr.

1. To kill unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
3. To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
4. To spoil by ineptness; mutilate: a speech that murdered the English language.
5. To defeat decisively; trounce.

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by wil

Funny I searched the whole thread to find the word murder and only found it referenced in the last post.

Although one who tells their child that their painting, or idea, or joke, or writing is awful, should consider the commandment 'thou shall not murder' and how it relates to creativity, enthusiasm, and childhood development.

So I guess I for one, although I don't use your phrase, do not either have your animosity toward it.

mur·der v. tr.

1. To kill unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
3. To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
4. To spoil by ineptness; mutilate: a speech that murdered the English language.
5. To defeat decisively; trounce.

Apologies,

It wasn't anywhere in this thread that I've seen the phrase "meat is murder", but in a certain restaurant that I have frequented in the past.
I brought it up as it is often what some people are thinking when they are discussing the ethics of meat-eating.

But I would like to know, from anyone who feels meat-eating is immoral, what is/was expected from such groups as;
1. Desert Nomads
2. Innuit
3. Sino-Siberian Nomads
4. Early Humans living through the ice-age

.

[wil]

But I would like to know, from anyone who feels meat-eating is immoral, what is/was expected from such groups as;
1. Desert Nomads
2. Innuit
3. Sino-Siberian Nomads
4. Early Humans living through the ice-age

earlier in this thread we discussed it as a survival tool...ie if you live in an area which one cannot survive without it, it would make sense to eat it....or move.

I feel the same with pharmaceutical drugs...I'd rather do without...but if I needed them to survive...

I do eat meat...fish that is...and for all the same reasons...I'm still addicted to it.

[path_of_one]

Aburaees, this is precisely my problem with saying eating meat is immoral. First, because many people don't have other options and second, because it is a culturally ethnocentric statement.

Eating meat, I am perfectly ready to accept, may be immoral for some people. That is, if you personally feel it is immoral for you, then it is. But I think it is biased to say it is immoral for all human beings, because it ignores cultural difference and extrapolates to cultures such as the Innuit giving up a good deal of their heritage and lifeways for foreign moral systems. That doesn't make sense to me as an anthropologist.

I do think it is reasonable to expect humane treatment of all living beings in all cultures. But then, most cultures do have such ideas.

I think by calling meat-eating a "survival tool," but inferior to vegetarianism, is to also, by proxy, say that cultures dependent on hunting and meat eating, such as Innuit and Northern Canadian indigenous peoples, pastoral nomadic cultures, and others are somehow inferior in their morality to the rest of us and should give up their traditional diets and lifeways for our "superior" ethical position. No offense, but I find such statements biased and repulsive.

[wil]

I'm sorry I offend. I find all eating a survival tool. As is breathing, and procreating. All of it may be enjoyable...but bottom line we do it to survive.

Like killing in self defense....killing normally isn't acceptable, but in self defense in some circles it is. Some people wouldn't lift a gun or own a gun to be able to defend themselves, that is their choice.

Bottom line eating aspargus is a choice, just like eating meat. I have known people in construction who buy hot (stolen) tools and materials and think it is ok, because of the cheap prices....they will also whine when something is stolen from them...even though they are part of the process. People that buy from Wal~Mart for the low prices should not complain becuase tens of thousands of people went out of work when Wal~Mart bankrupted Schwin Bicycles, RubberMaid, or Vlassic Pickles....or all the companies that will soon to be on the chopping block for their practices...they are part and parcel of the problem,

There are meat eathers that give thanx to the animal which offerred its life for them, there are those that buy free range....but the vast majority, eat with abandon and are taking part in the process that gives us diseases and e-coli and salmonella outbreaks of factory farms....they should not whine, they are part of the process. They should also not complain about the double bypass or sue because they didn't know... eyes wide open. Tour the farms and the slaughter houses...see what it looks like before it goes on your table.

Again, I've shot and killed many an animal, skinned, cleaned and plucked them. I'd do it again, for survival, if it was required. But it is not. I still eat fish...that is my issue.. and I justify it in my mind...fairly lamely I might add. I have to admit I am part of the process that is depleting/modifying the ecosystem in our oceans... Future generations will be paying the price for my indescretions.

I don't dis the innuit or any of those that have to eat meat for survival....nor those that eat it for the great taste...I just think if we choose to eat swines flesh and chicken embryos for breakfast and cadavers for lunch and dinner, we should realize...we are part of the process...and not condemn others that hunt or those that choose not to eat meat....even the vociferous ones.

[I am free]

Hi Path,

I agree with all that you say in your last post. I am a little surprised though by the tone of your last paragraph.

I agree whole heartedly that food is a very important part of our culture and of who we are. I for one, would never want to give up my culinary heritage. Majority of the people in the world are non vegetarians because that is the most natural state for human beings. I dont consider meat eating to be immoral or vegetarianism to be superior.

Your posts reflect your respect for life, your love for animals, love for your culture and your closeness to nature. That is a wonderful thing.

I come from a different place and speak for myself alone. The kind of meat eating I see is not a part of my culture. It has nothing even remotely to do with respect and gratefulness for God's creations and gifts, instead it has everything to do with self-indulgence. In that sense I find meat is not different from tobacco or alcohol.

regards.

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Quote:
But I would like to know, from anyone who feels meat-eating is immoral, what is/was expected from such groups as;
1. Desert Nomads
2. Innuit
3. Sino-Siberian Nomads
4. Early Humans living through the ice-age

The principle of ahimsa or nonviolence is to cause as little harm as possible by thought, word or deed.

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I so dislike the anthrosnobbery argument. We are animals and no amount of self-denyal will alter that fact....Animals behave in a beastly manner? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that....
In essence eating meat is a personal choice. ...

Humans must overcome their animal natures represented by the word 'man' and become fully 'Divine' represented by the word 'Hue' thus we must control our animal (or beastly) instincts and listen to our our spiritual intuition.
Human beings are more sophisticated than animals, we possess the ability to realise the unity of all beings. Realisation prompts good action in accordance with our realisation and good action promotes realisation. So whether or not one feels killing animals is O.K. is dependant upon ones empathy for them. Meat eating is a personal choice, yes but what about the animals personal choice? Would any animal choose an early death?