Vegetarianism

[I, Brian]

There are some rather compelling arguments that humanity evolved the way it has precisely because of our focus on hunting other animals.

But I quite agree - the industrial farming of animals is not somethng that I wish to be a part of.

[Mus Zibii]

I've always had the very uneducated, amatuer suspicion that our history of being hunters is what led to the seemingly arbitrary violence we engage in now that we no longer have need for our canine teeth. Who hasn't been in the habit of doing something, being forced to quit, only to focus the same passion elsewhere?

[Vapour]

ah, in fact, our violent traint goes back beyond history.

Here is a very famous study about chimpanzee tribe. Look at canibalism, warfare, hunting and meat eating. But then at the same time, don't miss the section of compassion and alturism.

http://www.lessonsforhope.org/abc/index.asp

Plus, just excercising vegetarianims don't make human compasionate in genetic sence. It merely an exercise in expression of behavioural gene which won't change unless vegetarianims somewhat improve the chance of copulation.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

In trying to avoid products derived from dead animals, are vegetarians therefore morally superior to people who eat meat?
<...>
So is there really any true moral dimension to vegetarianism? How about in comparison to eating meat only from organic and non-factory produced sources?

If there is a moral dimension is it just a personal moral decision - or is there an Objective Truth that humans eating animals is morally wrong?

A discussion point...

I would say "no." While eating a vegan diet might provide a small benefit in providing a more nurturing environment for cultivating positive thoughts, you throw all of those subtle benefits out the window if you cultivate negative thoughts within yourself by becoming militant about diet.

Originally Posted by Gospel of Thomas, verse 14

When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.

After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

[Samuel Linton Boot]

I am a vegan man, therefore I don't eat dairy products or eggs, as well as avoiding meat and fish. In theory I think eating milk products is fine, I am an advocate of the slogan 'Eat cheese not flesh. Drink milk not blood'. Yet because of the interconnected nature of the modern day meat and dairy industry, I choose to avoid dairy products as well.
I believe avoiding animal killing and avoiding causing others to kill animals (i.e. by purchasing meat) is conducive to ones spiritual development.
'Anima' is a word which means 'Soul'. The Anima is that which animates the body or the animal. The Creators creatures are not here for us to eat but rather to fufill their own purpose so they can move on to the next level, by uneccesarily killing them we hinder their progress and put them through suffering for which we are liable to be held accountable.

Its no coincidence that those who are cruel to animals are often also cruel to humans, this applies to societies as well as to individuals. Killing and eating animals for suvival is one thing but killing and eating them for a physical/taste sensation is something else. Killing the occasional animal concious of the pain and sacrifice of the being is one thing, factory farming is something else.

I accept a heirarchy of living organisms, infact we all do as we all accept the life of a human being as more important than the life of a dog and the life of a dog as more valueable than the life of a carrot. Similarly if a person has to kill an animal to eat, to kill a cow is worst than killing a goat and to kill a goat is worst than killing a chicken or a fish. The less complicated the living organism the less its capacity to feel pain or suffer and the less time it has spent evolving to reach that position. A vegetable feels no pain therefore the most civilised option is to eat vegetables.

God is omnipresent He is present in all his children whatever form they inhabit to recognise the universal Divinity of all beings and act accordingly is a great virtue.

[_Z_]

hi! It’s just the circle of proteins, for me and I am at the top of the food chain i.e. a cannibal on a self-catering holiday! I read in new scientist that meat will soon be ‘grown’ from cultures, one cell could feed the world! The only difficulty is arriving at the same texture.

So what do you think about meat that does not cause harm?

In fact would this not be more ‘civilised’ than eating vegetables, vegetation has spirit and sometimes developes defences against being eaten! [poisons, thorns, stings or hotness {chillies}].

[Tao_Equus]

I like my steak to moo when I stick the fork in

[Samuel Linton Boot]

Originally Posted by _Z_

I read in new scientist that meat will soon be ‘grown’ from cultures, one cell could feed the world! The only difficulty is arriving at the same texture.

So what do you think about meat that does not cause harm?

In fact would this not be more ‘civilised’ than eating vegetables, vegetation has spirit and sometimes developes defences against being eaten! [poisons, thorns, stings or hotness {chillies}].

Apparently vegetables don't suffer because they don't have a mind as such although certainly they have spirit. My guess is meat 'grown' from cultures would be in the same catorgary as vegetables.

[suanni]

Think I would prefer to eat something that has grown on a field rather than in a laboratory. I'm damned sure that we weren't meant to eat it. If we were it would be growing somewhere now.
Strange, most people consider GM foods unacceptable, do the scientists think this is going to go down any better?

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Samuel Linton Boot

Apparently vegetables don't suffer because they don't have a mind as such although certainly they have spirit. My guess is meat 'grown' from cultures would be in the same catorgary as vegetables.

Plants may not have have a mind in traditional sense - but they do have something analagous to a nervous system - whether they experience "pain" in any way we can relate to is quite an academic question.

I remember once believing the most ideal spiritual diet would be fruit only - and redistribute the seeds for use.

[_Z_]

Plants may not have a mind in traditional sense - but they do have something analogous to a nervous system



Ahar! so it is perhaps more immoral to eat vegetables than culture grown meat!



Perhaps man will one day invent a direct energy/nutrients ingestion machine to replace the stomach, so we don’t have to eat anything just fill up at the garage

[path_of_one]

A few thoughts...

First, about the biological nature of humans and what we're "supposed" to eat as organisms. Apes are omnivorous- they often eat small game, including monkeys, and insects. The entire animal world CANNOT be biologically defined as grass, fruit, or meat eaters. There are many animals that evolved to be omnivores- eating a bit of everything- including apes, humans, dogs, and pigs, among others. Early humans show every evidence of at least scavenging meat from carnivores' kills from early on, and then later hunting and gathering. The natural state of humans is to be hunter-gatherers, and most hunter-gatherers (outside of the arctic regions) consume roughly 70-90% vegetative matter and 10-30% meat. Meat is widely considered necessary and prized, and for good reason. Although the bulk of calories comes from vegetables, lean meat is necessary to avoid protein starvation. Protein starvation is still one of the biggest malnutrition problems in the world. There are many places in third world countries in which plenty of starches abound, but children still suffer from protein starvation. This is why programs like The Ark and other development schemes that introduce suitable meat and dairy animals into areas, that the local people can breed and utilize, are really useful.

Perhaps we, being in first world countries (largely), can afford vitamin supplements, watch our iron intake, and have a wide selection of affordable fruits, veggies, and nuts at our disposal. Most people in the world don't. Not only is protein scarce in many areas, but so are all things that contain vitamins and minerals. Many people are surviving (barely) on mere carbs.

Because of this, I'd like first to say that I don't think being vegetarian is a universal moral issue. I don't believe anything that the poor in the world have little choice about is a moral issue; it doesn't fit with my conceptions of God and ethics. Nor do I think that humans, who were obviously biologically created and/or evolved for omnivory, must ignore their biology in order to be moral.

That said, I do think there are numerous ethical problems with the treatment of animals. Of equal concern are various other problems with agribusiness: the treatment of the poor (and often illegal) workers in the States, the low returns for the few farming and ranching families left, the pollutant problem from feedlots and dairies, the issues of pesticides, fertilizers, etc. I'm pretty aware of how it all works, given that my research is on family cattle ranchers and I've seen the calves born, grow up, shipped to feedlot, and then wind up in my local grocery store. As an aside, my own opinion is that beef cattle (in the West at least) have far better (though shorter) lives than dairy cattle in the States. I'd take being a beef cow anyday over sitting in the filth that are our dairies. At least the cows I work with get to roam around in mountain meadows and grassy valleys. It's not such a bad life, and if you buy grass-fed beef that's all they ever do- no feedlot time at all. As for humane animal treatment- I love animals. I feel they are other kinds of people. But I must say that humane treatment of ANYTHING/ONE is a problem these days. And I know a lot of animals, even animals raised for meat, that are treated a lot more humanely than many of the world's poor, ill, elderly, and imprisoned. At least they get medical care, a home, and clean air and water, which is more than I can say for much of the world's population.
Finally, I personally believe that the divine light of God exists in all things. Just because a creature happens to be a plant doesn't mean it doesn't have thoughts, feelings, or spirit. We may just not recognize it because it isn't like us. It's kind of how people ascribe to some animal heirarchy in which the cuter/larger/seemingly more intelligent animals get spiritual precedence over the ugly/small/stupid ones. It's the same sort of thing that leads to charismastic megafauna getting most of the endangered species protection, while only God knows how many nematodes perish. All I can say is that based on my own experience, I'm pretty sure plants have spirits and can feel pain. They just aren't very good at communicating in language we understand.

In my opinion, eating is part of the great cycle of life. No matter what you eat- plant or animal- unless all you eat is byproducts (like nuts and fruit) that does not require killing- your life is depending on the taking of other lives. But is this necessarily an immoral or bad thing? When we die, provided we are disposed of naturally (which is a big issue of its own), will we not become food for others? For me, it makes more sense to follow the ways of many indigenous peoples worldwide- you eat a balanced diet, geared for your health, and enjoy your food. You do your best to be humane in your treatment of all living beings- animals and plants. And you thank all the beings that gave up their lives in sacrifice for the continuation of your own.

Peace,
Path

[Tao_Equus]

Very nicely put Path


.

[Samuel Linton Boot]

We can't justify behaviour simply because animals do it, just think what beastly actions based on animalistic impulses could be condoned on that basis.

[I am free]

Humans are classified under the Animal Kingdom. One of the basic characteristics of all animals is that they are heterotrophs - they cannot synthesize their own food and they have to depend on other organisms for nutrition. What that means that we have to kill other organisms to survive. That is the way we are made.

In the end the very process of my existence will cause many many other organisms to die - every time I cook my food, every time I take an antibiotic, maybe even every time I walk in the park.

I am a vegetarian myself, I made the choice because I cannot bear the thought of an animal suffering or crying in pain, not for my own spiritual advancement or to feel morally superior. Do plants suffer? They probably do, but I also know that I need to eat something .