Understanding Spiritual Warfare

[Conscience]

"No, just as Satan is known as the devil, and "devil" means little god. That is all."

Oh..OK. Well, demons are also known as gods by people who dont know what the bible says.

[path_of_one]

Thank you all. I still am struggling with this, because it is still polytheistic to think of Satan as a god, even a little god, or a god under another God's authority. There exist pantheons among polytheists who have such heirarchical arrangements, and I'm operating simply off the text-book definitions of these terms. It seems very problematic to me that Christians are monotheists and yet also polytheists in this sense. I have some intuitive readings of scripture that reconcile this problem for me, but it is still present in Christianity in general.

I think it is partially an issue of Satan, as was meant by the Torah, as opposed to Satan as mainstream Christians think of him today. The Satan in the Torah was not a fallen angel. He was an angel of God that tested people's moral fabric, just as we see occur in the gospels when he tests Christ (and fails to get Christ to yield to him). The Satan of mainstream Christian theology is elevated to some sort of "little god" status as the Devil, which I'm sorry to say, smacks of Zoroastrianism to me (and to many religious studies scholars and historians). As Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism, we should see the same fundamental concepts of where evil comes from, who Satan is, etc., should we not? Otherwise, it seems that it is undermining the original scriptures (those we have compiled into the OT and are the Torah). This is why I think that Satan, as he appears as the messenger of God who tempts us and tests us, is probably more accurate, and is either an actual angel or a personification of our internal nature of temptation. Without this, we could not learn righteous action and to lean on God to resist evil (wrong, wickedness, and error). We would cease to be human and be as the rest of nature- instinctively praising and glorifying God without free choice.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Conscience

"No, just as Satan is known as the devil, and "devil" means little god. That is all."

Oh..OK. Well, demons are also known as gods by people who dont know what the bible says.

Actually, many people cross-culturally do recognize that demons (by definition, malicious or evil spirit entities) exist, but non-Christians do not necessarily worship them or think of them as gods. Generally, they are just thought of as we think of them- as evil spiritual entities that are harmful toward people. It is varied how people deal with them and how they think about them in relation to their concepts of god(s).

[lunamoth]

I don't recall the Bible ever saying that Satan is god of this world and conscience has not produced scripture to back this up. I do recall the Bible referring to Satan as prince of this world, or ruler of this world.

lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Conscience

"No, just as Satan is known as the devil, and "devil" means little god. That is all."

Oh..OK. Well, demons are also known as gods by people who dont know what the bible says.

Fine. Ignore what the Bible says. Satan is the Devil, and the Devil is a little god...

I don't concern myself with minoins. I am concerned with the chief players. God, Man, Devil. All else is gravy. Really...nothing else seems to matter. Doe's it?

v/r

Q

[didymus]

I am going to quote Elaine Pagels in her book; The Origin of Satan.

In the Hebrew Bible, as in mainstream Judaism today, Satan never appears as Western Christendom has come to know him, as a leader of an "evil empire," an army of hostile spirits who make war on God and humankind alike. As he first appears in the Hebrew Bible, Satan is not necessarily evil, much less opposed to God. On the contrary, he appears in the book of Numbers and in Job as one of God's obedient servants-a messenger, or angel, a word that translates the Hebrew term for messenger(mal'ak) into Greek(angelos). In Hebrew, the angels were often called "sons of God" (bene'elohim), and were envisioned as the hierarchical ranks of a great army, or the staff of a royal court.
In the biblical sources the Hebrew term the satan describes an adversarial role. It is not the same of a particular character. Although Hebrew storytellers as early as 6th century b.c. occasionally introduced a supernatural character whom they called the satan, what they meant was any one of the angels sent by God for the specific purpose of blocking or obstructing human acivity. The root stn means "one who opposes, obstructs, or acts as adversary." The Greek term diabolos, later translated devil, literally means "one who throws something across ones' path."
The satan's presence in a story could help account for unexpected obstacles or reversals of fortune. Hebrew storytellers often attribute misfortune to sin. Some, however, also invoke this supernatural character, the satan, who, by God's own order or permission, blocks or opposes human plans and desires. But this messenger is not necessarily malevolent. God sends him, like the angel of death, to perform a specific task, although one that human beings may not appreciate. Thus the satan may have been sent by the Lord to protect a person from worse harm. The story of Balaam in the biblical book Numbers, for example, tells of a man who decided to go where the Lord had ordered him not to go. Balaam saddled the ass and set off. " but God's anger was kindled because he went; and the angel of the Lord took his stand in the road as his satan" (le sa ta n lo) that is, as his adversary, or his obstructer.
numbers 22:23-25

[Conscience]

"Fine. Ignore what the Bible says. Satan is the Devil, and the Devil is a little god..."

I love God, I wont ignore his word. The Bible says that satan is the god of this world system. He blinds the people of the world from truth. Jesus is the truth, and he frees us, and removes the lies that blind us.

This is new to you?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Conscience

"Fine. Ignore what the Bible says. Satan is the Devil, and the Devil is a little god..."

I love God, I wont ignore his word. The Bible says that satan is the god of this world system. He blinds the people of the world from truth. Jesus is the truth, and he frees us, and removes the lies that blind us.

This is new to you?

Didymus, Pagels is not the Bible.

Conscience... "Well, demons are also known as gods by people who dont know what the bible says"

your words. But whether the truth set us free or not, the fact is there is a bad man named what? The Devil, Satan, Lucifer?

No, my friend. The news is not new to me. And I suspect I've known it a bit longer than you have been alive...but I digress.

v/r

Q

[Conscience]

Wisdom comes with time, not necessarily with age. But, I digress.

[didymus]

I thought that this passage was interesting as to the historcity of the meaning and the term satan.

Conscience, where does the Bible say that Satan is God of this earth? I'm just curious.

[Conscience]

"Satan is the 'God' of this earth." I dont remember saying that! I beleive what I said, is that Satan is the god of this world system (unbelieving world). The Bible clearly teaches that Satan blinds men from truth (Ephs. 6:12), and that before the 7th angels sounds, In Rev. 11:15, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and he SHALL reign forever and ever. The sad thing about all of this is, MOST people dont even know they follow Satan. But, I'll tell you the truth, according to the Bible if you serve yourself, and you're not serving God through his Christ, you're serving Satan.

[Conscience]

More scripture teaching about the god of this world. 2 Corinth. 4:4....satan is god of this world and mt. 4:8-10 he is able to reward those that follow him with great riches and success in this world. 2 Corinth. 4:4 in whom god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not...

[truthseeker]

Wow, Conscience. You sound like Jehovah's Witnesses.

Whether we choose to be blind or walk with Christ or serve 'the little god', we do just that - make a choice. 'The Devil' is a spirit entity that has the power to consume you but you must give up control of yourself. Those who believe the devil rules the world is saying that God has no power because he gave it to the devil. But didn't he give it to Jesus? I mean, which one is it?

The devil only has as much power as you give up. And even God will not take over in your life if you will not give Him that power. Same thing with Jesus. Everyone doesn't view the world in the same manner. So maybe the devil rules your world. He doesn't rule mine.

Originally Posted by Conscience

But, I'll tell you the truth, according to the Bible if you serve yourself, and you're not serving God through his Christ, you're serving Satan.

Doesn't sound like any freedom in there. I don't think God would have given us our own minds and ability to reason if things were that rigid. How do you know if you are serving Satan? I don't think serving myself is serving Satan. As a matter of fact, you can not truly get acquainted with God if you don't know who you are. Following a rule book is easy. Taking the chance to get to know God's creation, which includes yourself, is the hard part. But I guess if you think Satan rules the world then there is nothing here that represents God but the Holy Spirit. So then nothing of this earth is Good. In that case, you'd better hold on to your sword and shield - but try not to cut yourself.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Conscience

More scripture teaching about the god of this world. 2 Corinth. 4:4....satan is god of this world and mt. 4:8-10 he is able to reward those that follow him with great riches and success in this world. 2 Corinth. 4:4 in whom god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not...

From the NASV:
Mt 4:8-10 "Again, the devil took Him to a very high moutain and showed Him all the kigndoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'"

This does not state that Satan is a god over the world. It is the temptation of Jesus by Satan, which, by the way, does not undermine the original Judaic understanding of Satan that is put forth in the OT.

2 Corinthians 4:4 talks of the "god of this world" but not Satan by name.

I will say that for varied reasons I do not hold Paul's letters as sacred, but obviously you do. There is an excellent article on this website that illuminates why I do not consider Paul's text as sacred, and it has a lot to do with contradicting the words of Jesus in the gospels. I do read Paul's letters and extract what is in line with the teachings of Jesus, as guided by the Spirit, but I do not put the letters on the same level as Jesus' teachings in the gospels.

That said, even accepting Paul's letters as sacred text does not mean that the "god of this world" is Satan, especially if you study the meaning of Satan (and the term Satan) in the original Hebrew scriptures (the Jewish Torah, our OT).

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Conscience

Wisdom comes with time, not necessarily with age. But, I digress.

and you have seen what I have seen? And age is all? Digress well you should.

carry the dead for a time my friend. In the mean time, back off a bit.

v/r

q