Ultimate truths

[Muslimwoman]

The Ultimate Truth is G-d, however for us humans there can be no understanding of that ultimate truth. We are all just guessing and trying to find our way through life.

[Postmaster]

and its through love we do this.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

and its through love we do this.

Damn, I wish I'd said that.

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by InLove

You see, what happens sometimes is that when I express my feelings about the Name of Christ (or Jesus), so often the reactions from others is to back away, or immediately assume that I am going to insist that they must understand about this Name exactly what I do, or how I do. This, I suppose, is understandable in light of the fact that this Name is often used in this way. But I am not doing that, and it is difficult for me when people don't understand maybe because of preconceived ideas about all Christians.

Hello InLove, when something is close to your heart, I think it's a natural reaction to also want to protect it in some way (that's how I'm reading the above?). Or maybe preconceived ideas are there to be broken?

... Neemai

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Neemai

...when something is close to your heart, I think it's a natural reaction to also want to protect it in some way (that's how I'm reading the above?...

I'm sure this is often the case, Neemai. But I don't feel like I need to protect Christ, of course. In my view, He protects me. But yes, I sometimes feel the urge to defend my right and my choice to believe in Him. I have to be honest with myself and admit that there are those who would prefer that I lose my love for Him, or at least re-work what I say and believe about Him. Surprisingly, many of these folks are Christians; some aren't.

Or maybe preconceived ideas are there to be broken?

Well, I do my best to chip away at some of the negative perceptions others have about all Christians. But it seems I am in the minority--at least that is the way it looks to me when I see some of the things done in the Name of Christ. At least here in my country. I know the rest of the world sees this, too. It makes me very sad, sometimes.

But then maybe I have a preconceived notion that everyone else is going to see all Christians in this way. Hmmm....

InPeace,
InLove

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

The Ultimate Truth is G-d, however for us humans there can be no understanding of that ultimate truth. We are all just guessing and trying to find our way through life.

Greetings Muslimwoman,

The pursuit of knowledge maybe second only to the pursuit for love.

But really so often they are one and the same.

This is something some religious orders didn't understand in the past. They abused the scholars, thinking that their study was taking them away from Godly pursuits- prayer, meditation etc.



Fortunately not all orders held to these views. They understood the relationship between, interest, seeking knowledge and Love. How can we love something we don't know?



It is great to see folk aspire towards the truth. Children are full of questions, but this is mostly belted out of them by the time they reach adulthood.


We can understand the difference between the unknowable, and the knowable unknowable!


The vistas of discovery do widen with each grand step, wonderment with anticipation. Wonderment which comes with the privilege of knowing, the holding, in this: the entrustment of those finest of treasures: the truth. And this is because THE TRUTH, is what IS: of our Father - that which is complete, most perfect, uncontaminated, without compromise, out of time, in actuality, the quiescence of isms, perpetual and everlasting.


-The Brothers


Streaming from the Truth we find streams of fragmented expressions, of persuasions, of manifestations, of traditions.



-Br.Bruce

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

The pursuit of knowledge maybe second only to the pursuit for love. But really so often they are one and the same.

This is something some religious orders didn't understand in the past. They abused the scholars, thinking that their study was taking them away from Godly pursuits- prayer, meditation etc.

wa aleykum salaam Br. Bruce

It is so nice to talk to you, I always read your posts with such interest.

I could not agree with you more. G-d has told us that you can see Him in His creation. Muslims are told that an hour truely contemplating G-d's creation is worth more to us than hours of prayer. We are also told to "seek knowledge even unto China". Surely G-d would not teach us this unless knoweldge is the key to an open heart and mind, which can lead us to a better understanding of G-d? I am saddened that so many fail to follow these instructions and believe it is only for a chosen few to seek knowledge.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

It is great to see folk aspire towards the truth. Children are full of questions, but this is mostly belted out of them by the time they reach adulthood.

I consider myself to be very fortunate, my father always encouraged me to never stop asking questions, to never think I really 'know' anything, as everything changes with knowledge (by which I mean our human views and beliefs). It always distresses me when I hear a child ask a question like "why don't the stars fall out of the sky" and they receive the response "go and watch the tv". Perhaps I am still just a child but everyday I ask why.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

We can understand the difference between the unknowable, and the knowable unknowable!

Please would you share your thoughts a little more on the subject. My view is that whilst we currently do not know what is beyond our universe, given time and scientific knowledge mankind can know this. Given time and an open heart each person can come to know that G-d is the ultimate truth, the ALL (seeing, knowing, merciful, etc) but can a person, in their lifetime, ever truly 'know' and understand what that means? For me the answer is no, we can only believe and try to, as it were, catch glimpses of what G-d may be.

I am reminded of an article I read recently by an Islamic scholar and scientist. He was discussing the story of Adam and whether we should take this literally. He suggested that 'Adam' could be a euphemism for the first phase of mankind and was indeed made from clay and water, however we do not need to imagine G-d created an effigy of Adam and made him alive, as mankind did emerge from clay and water here on earth. I was enthralled, as the article encompassed our knowledge of life and our religious teachings and, for me, clearly showed that both are correct, we just have to apply our minds. This also shows the blindness of mankind, G-d has told us so many wonderful secrets of the worlds around us and yet we choose to argue over words and interpretations of the literal meanings of those words.

Salaam

[Bruce Michael]

Salaam Muslimwoman,
Thank you for your kind words.

>I could not agree with you more. G-d has told us that you can see Him in >His creation.
I just heard on the radio that Muslims honour the colour green, because it is the colour of nature, of Creation.


>It always distresses me when I hear a child ask a question like "why don't the stars fall out of the sky" and they receive the response "go and watch >the tv". Perhaps I am still just a child but everyday I ask why.

It is not good to give hard edged replies. "Perhaps it is this, perhaps that."

Perhaps the stars hold each other up in the sky. In fact that is how we are to understand occult truths. They are proven by their relationship to other truths.


>Please would you share your thoughts a little more on the subject. My >view is that whilst we currently do not know what is beyond our universe, >given time and scientific knowledge mankind can know this. Given time and an open heart each person can come to know that G-d is the ultimate truth, the ALL (seeing, knowing, merciful, etc) but can a person, in their >lifetime, ever truly 'know' and understand what that means?

One lifetime is surely not enough.
You know, knowing everything all at once is not such a good thing . We proceed piece by piece.

So one might say that the aspirant endeavors to remove from himself those stupidities which he carries. This is but one of the fields of endeavor, one of the tasks and the duties, forthcoming. Stupidity (stupendous, as in large, unsurpassing) encapsulates a man, in veils upon veils, protecting him also from that vast knowledge - fiery knowledge which would otherwise overwhelm his consciousness and render it dumb in the face of such great and glorious activity. That a man might assimilate: piece by piece, fragment by fragment, frame by frame, concept by concept, sphere upon sphere, he has the necessary Stupidities which make for divisions between him and the unveiled mysteries.
It may sometimes be the case that one has too little or too much of a 'good thing'. The stupidities are as a heavenly grace, they promote slumber: they lead us into unconscious sleep - this being a condition of passing through the veil, but having limited ability to recall either side of such veil, hence unconsciousness.

-Death in Venus.

>He suggested that 'Adam' could be a euphemism for the first phase of >mankind and was indeed made from clay and water, however we do not >need to imagine G-d created an effigy of Adam and made him alive, as >mankind did emerge from clay and water here on earth.

I think Adam also means "red earth". Adam or the Adamic race, was in spirit form before descending into gross matter.
Man before the temptation of Lucifer/Iblis, and the Fall, is referred to as "Adam Cadmon/Kadmon".

There really doesn't need to be a separation of science and religion.

Warm Regards,
Br.Bruce

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

I just heard on the radio that Muslims honour the colour green, because it is the colour of nature, of Creation.

Yes we do honour the colour green, most mosques I have seen are painted green inside. To be honest I think the reason for this is lost in history. Shia Muslims say it is the colour of joy, other sects the colour of nature and some the colour of eternity. I would imagine, applying logic, that as Islam started in the desert sands of the Arabian Steppes that a green oasis would be the highest physical sustainer of life and would therefore encompass all of these reasons (nature, joy and eternity)?

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

It is not good to give hard edged replies. "Perhaps it is this, perhaps that."

I would prefer that to "go watch tv or play outside", it is so dismissive of childrens desire to learn.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Perhaps the stars hold each other up in the sky.

Our current scientific knowledge suggests that stars should indeed spin off into the great beyond, hence the theory of the universe being 90% dark matter. Just shows how much we have still to learn.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

You know, knowing everything all at once is not such a good thing . We proceed piece by piece.

Oh I hope we never know everything at once or we would have nothing left to learn.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

I think Adam also means "red earth". Adam or the Adamic race, was in spirit form before descending into gross matter.
Man before the temptation of Lucifer/Iblis, and the Fall, is referred to as "Adam Cadmon/Kadmon".

Thank you I had not heard this before. I found an interesting piece about it in an online Catholic Encyclopedia here:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Adam

There really doesn't need to be a separation of science and religion.

Salaam
MW

[China Cat Sunflower]

Wouldn't the "ultimate truth" lie just outside whatever system in which the question was posed? And that begs the question of the relativity of, or maybe just the relative scale in terms of superlative position of the "ultimate truth." Saying that God is the ultimate truth is a convenient cop-out. What, exactly, is God? If the same indeterminate definition derived from that question is applied, ultimately we are left with a circular logic that is ultimately self-referential.

I like InLove's description of the unrequitable Name.

Chris

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

and its through love we do this.

Perfect answer, and I like your OP too.

Well Postmaster, it seems you and I have much in common!

[Postmaster]

What does OP mean? There's such a diverse amount of ways of looking at things yet some people seem to always arrive at the same conclusions. You know what they say those, great minds think alike

[_Z_]

i think when defining truth we tend to use loose and vague terms like ‘life’ and ‘god’ - if i may, thus we can continually break the notions down deconstructing them to oblivion.

however some things have absolute meaning and thus truth can be drawn from them as absolute e.g. no one would deny that death is for us an absolute, and an undeniable truth we can gain from this that i have posted before is that ‘death cannot be experienced’.

i think truth is a journey we look for answers and truths pop up usually on a tangent to the search.

g-d is presumed to be ultimate truth yet the lack of anyone finding any aspect of that truth stands as a testament to it not being the ultimate truth or even a given truth. we thing there must be an ultimate yet when we explore it we find nothing that suggests shape and form or any godly natures. perhaps that feeling we have of god the ultimate pertains to something real of which all things belong, but it is not a god just something that can appear like it when formed in the mind.

[Eudaimonist]

The Ultimate Truth:

Stuff exists.

There you have it.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Postmaster]

Can you prove it?